Soul-Searching, Recriminations Within Democratic Party

[wise_rita]

Nov 8, 2024 7:34:50 GMT -5 dontlook said:

Nov 8, 2024 7:17:52 GMT -5 neverfstop said:

If you had to summarize the Democratic message in 2024, what was it?

Trump's main message was "I'll fix it & it's their (whatever boogie man) fault!" It worked and people didn't care about anything else or who he was or that he had zero policy plans beyond Project 2025.

The dem's main message was ______? "Not trump"? or "A new way forward" (that's what comes up on google as her slogan)

Not going back and….
Joy
Neither of which resonated with people. People are mad and they want to go back to when (enter food was cheaper, gas was cheaper, they could be openly racist…..)

To add to your list: we are on your side and will fight for you

Repub message was: here are some obvious lies to placate your wants/needs/concerns
We only care about ourselves

[wise_rita]

Nov 8, 2024 9:11:05 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Nov 8, 2024 8:48:00 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

YES.

FFS, people. These fascist, nationalistic, racist, misogynistic fuckers are already sending awful text messages to Black university students around the country and threatening women with rape. Oh, you didn’t personally send those messages? Well, you voted for someone who supports them and has spewed vitriol himself. You made that bed. Fucking lie in it.

When I, a perpetually online liberal white woman, didn’t hear this specific story until this post (though am sadly unsurprised by this)…what makes you think millions of other voters knew about this and factored this into their vote?

Obviously there are numerous examples like this and the majority of people should have known what they were voting for, but I ask again, am I supposed to say fuck you to the Palestinian-American woman who voted for Trump as a protest against D policy? Or fuck you to the local Gen Z Black woman interviewed locally who voted for Trump for the first time because she doesn’t feel safe in this city and voted to shake up the status quo? I mean, maybe I should but I’d rather not.

You don't personally need to say a thing, because Trump will say it for you.

Regardless of their reasoning/thought process: FAFO

[dontlook]

Nov 8, 2024 9:41:47 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

dontlook - I hear that. And I also hear that people are struggling financially. I also really don’t think most of them are aware of what they have done and the level of destruction and chaos that is coming. I am furious at what people have thrown away. People are going to lose basic human rights and the economy is going to tank. I know I am coming off enraged and grief stricken and that is part of the process for me. I am also mobilizing, though, and will be more rational later.

But I refuse to let people who KNOW who he is off the hook.

Absolutely! And none of my comments are about letting anyone off the hook or excusing. My comments are strictly about how the dem party finds a way forward. How we win elections and restore rights. I’m not aiming anything I say at individuals here. If you (general) think you can talk your Trump neighbors into a different vote next time, go for it. If you think your Trump neighbors are fucking idiots who should be shamed and ignored, go for it. If you think America has gone bsc and want to cry, please do. Do whatever brings you a little peace in a time where peace will be difficult to find. Apparently my peace is in trying to figure out a way forward for the national party and digging into as much info as I can.

[rupertpenny]

A lot of this discussion (not just here, everywhere) seems to be treating racism and bigotry as something separate from the economy or voting for economic reasons. While they aren't one in the same, they are inextricably tied.

One aspect of the Third Reich that doesn't get a ton of attention is that it was a kleptocracy. J.D. Vance said out loud that mass deportation was the answer to the affordable housing crisis, essentially taking homes from "them" and giving them to "us." That is literally happened after Nazis deported Jews: gentiles took their homes. Immigrants are stealing our jobs? After Jewish businesses were destroyed on Kristallnacht, gentiles with competing business suddenly had a lot less competition. Groceries too expensive? After you invade Denmark, suddenly everyone has access to cheap, delicious butter. Defeat the French Army? Champagne for all. Regular Germans reaped economic benefits during the Third Reich, and throughout the first years of the war. Even the ones who weren't card-carrying Nazis or the ones who had Jewish friends.

[wanderingback]

Nov 8, 2024 9:54:54 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

A lot of this discussion (not just here, everywhere) seems to be treating racism and bigotry as something separate from the economy or voting for economic reasons. While they aren't one in the same, they are inextricably tied.

One aspect of the Third Reich that doesn't get a ton of attention is that it was a kleptocracy. J.D. Vance said out loud that mass deportation was the answer to the affordable housing crisis, essentially taking homes from "them" and giving them to "us." That is literally happened after Nazis deported Jews: gentiles took their homes. Immigrants are stealing our jobs? After Jewish businesses were destroyed on Kristallnacht, gentiles with competing business suddenly had a lot less competition. Groceries too expensive? After you invade Denmark, suddenly everyone has access to cheap, delicious butter. Defeat the French Army? Champagne for all. Regular Germans reaped economic benefits during the Third Reich, and throughout the first years of the war. Even the ones who weren't card-carrying Nazis or the ones who had Jewish friends.

Yes exactly. Upholding white supremacy.
Project 2025 is a white supremacy play book.
And like I said above the Democratic Party is not perfect. I actually do not blame anyone who did not vote for Harris specifically due to human rights concerns.

But we can’t pander to Trump voters and project 2025 and need to spend our energy mobilizing, organizing, supporting mutual aid and other communities that need us. That is the "fuck you" to the other side.

[suzyp]

Nov 8, 2024 9:19:12 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

For what it’s worth, the Democratic Party is not perfect and I don’t think that all of their policies are perfect. But we need to recognize how truly fucked up voting for Trump is and act accordingly to cut these people out our lives and organize effectively and appropriately. People have been doing this work for a long time and white people need to recognize that and reflect on how they uphold white supremacy. Voting for Trump is 100% a way that upholds white supremacy.

Didn't we have this same conversation after the 2016 election? How being "polite" around your racist Uncle contributed to Trump winning?  That we all had to take action, not be polite, etc.  So I don't understand how/why people are having the "I don't know what to do about Thankgiving" converations.  It's been 8+ years of him spewing this racist nonsense.

[Velar Fricative]

Nov 8, 2024 9:54:54 GMT -5 rupertpenny said:

A lot of this discussion (not just here, everywhere) seems to be treating racism and bigotry as something separate from the economy or voting for economic reasons. While they aren't one and the same, they are inextricably tied.

One aspect of the Third Reich that doesn't get a ton of attention is that it was a kleptocracy. J.D. Vance said out loud that mass deportation was the answer to the affordable housing crisis, essentially taking homes from "them" and giving them to "us." That is literally happened after Nazis deported Jews: gentiles took their homes. Immigrants are stealing our jobs? After Jewish businesses were destroyed on Kristallnacht, gentiles with competing business suddenly had a lot less competition. Groceries too expensive? After you invade Denmark, suddenly everyone has access to cheap, delicious butter. Defeat the French Army? Champagne for all. Regular Germans reaped economic benefits during the Third Reich, and throughout the first years of the war. Even the ones who weren't card-carrying Nazis or the ones who had Jewish friends.

And I think this might be the kind of excellent example to use in the coming months/years for the voters who didn’t know or think about this, or to the people who stayed home because they felt shit was going to suck no matter who they voted for. It also hits at the feeling from MAGAs that Trump would keep us out of wars. Well, what if invading other countries keeps cost of living low and people happy? Welcome to Persian Gulf/Iraq 3.0.

[jeaniebueller]

Nov 7, 2024 22:18:04 GMT -5 livinitup said:

I think I know what’s missing from the D messaging. Rage. The rage I’ve felt for days is almost real. Why are the talking points so fucking nice about everything? Explaining facts? Why weren’t we screaming that this fucking asshole was a lying liar, con artist? Like ALL THE TIME? There was so much to insult. Why didn’t they really go for it? Did we think it was just so obvious? Jokes on us!

I'm not trying to be rude, but people WERE saying this. Keep in mind that the party isn't just messaging coming directly from the party proper. In the age of social media, messaging also comes from voters, the media, etc.. My socials have been full of people saying these things about Trump for years and years. I think part of the issue is that there is so much to talk about with Trump that by the time the really really important stuff comes up, people have tuned out because he's covered so heavily. For example, the Tony Hinchcliffe thing was covered for days and most of us probably knew that it would have little effect on Trump voters. 

[Velar Fricative]

Nov 8, 2024 10:11:36 GMT -5 suzyp said:

Nov 8, 2024 9:19:12 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

For what it’s worth, the Democratic Party is not perfect and I don’t think that all of their policies are perfect. But we need to recognize how truly fucked up voting for Trump is and act accordingly to cut these people out our lives and organize effectively and appropriately. People have been doing this work for a long time and white people need to recognize that and reflect on how they uphold white supremacy. Voting for Trump is 100% a way that upholds white supremacy.

Didn't we have this same conversation after the 2016 election? How being "polite" around your racist Uncle contributed to Trump winning?  That we all had to take action, not be polite, etc.  So I don't understand how/why people are having the "I don't know what to do about Thankgiving" converations.  It's been 8+ years of him spewing this racist nonsense.

Who exactly is saying this here? Did you think perhaps that some of us did that 8 years ago and sustained that aren’t even talking about our own families and are instead talking about random strangers we met while canvassing?

I need to bow out of here because even though feelings are still raw and this is the time to let all this shit out, I am really tired of people thinking we need to do the same shit again and again and expect a different outcome, especially when the times that we did achieve a different outcome to what historically tends to happen in elections (at least in our lifetimes) were 2020 (in the thick of covid) and 2022 (tail end of the covid emergency). This is back to normal bona fide America now and something has to change, and maybe many of you are skeptical but we can change our messaging and our governance without changing our values. If I didn’t believe that, I would have no hope after this and we need all the hope we can get for whatever next elections still exist.

[sonrisa]

Nov 8, 2024 10:21:19 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

And I think this might be the kind of excellent example to use in the coming months/years for the voters who didn’t know or think about this, or to the people who stayed home because they felt shit was going to suck no matter who they voted for.

None of them are going to care. They never have in the past.

Ever ask a Nader voter if the regretted their choice? Or a Bernie bro who sat it out 2016 or voted for Trump? They won't care nor take any accountability.  

It'll be "the democrats fault for letting this happen."

[wildrice]

Nov 8, 2024 9:11:05 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Nov 8, 2024 8:48:00 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

YES.

FFS, people. These fascist, nationalistic, racist, misogynistic fuckers are already sending awful text messages to Black university students around the country and threatening women with rape. Oh, you didn’t personally send those messages? Well, you voted for someone who supports them and has spewed vitriol himself. You made that bed. Fucking lie in it.

When I, a perpetually online liberal white woman, didn’t hear this specific story until this post (though am sadly unsurprised by this)…what makes you think millions of other voters knew about this and factored this into their vote?

Obviously there are numerous examples like this and the majority of people should have known what they were voting for, but I ask again, am I supposed to say fuck you to the Palestinian-American woman who voted for Trump as a protest against D policy? Or fuck you to the local Gen Z Black woman interviewed locally who voted for Trump for the first time because she doesn’t feel safe in this city and voted to shake up the status quo? I mean, maybe I should but I’d rather not.

I have been extremely anti- Trump supporter for the last 8+ years. I cut everyone out years ago, have purposely not made new friends who are even right leaning, and have had a very fuck you attitude toward everyone who votes or even breathes that they might be thinking of voting for him. I truly believe that I have zero people in my personal life who are Trump supporters at this point. This is not by accident.

But this election cycle was eye opening for me with many anecdotes like yours, too. I helped a Black homeless man register as a Republican. I had so many Black, Latino, Asian, Arab, immigrant, and FEMALE (of any race/country of origin) voters walk up to me with their ballot on election day and ask for assistance in scanning their vote for Trump. Do I think these folks are outliers? Yes. Do I think they probably have some internalized racism/racism against races other than their own/internalized misogyny? Also yes. Do I think they are all stupid or terrible people? Maybe, but is that because of my own bias and internalized misogyny? It's making me reflect on my own beliefs about people, that's for sure. Interacting with all of these people face to face made it hard to continue to "other" them as "those terrible Trump people". I suspect many of them wouldn't even call themselves Republicans. I only saw 2 MAGA hats all day.

I wonder what would happen if someone in the democratic party was to have a conversation with any of those folks and ask them what they need. What is hurting them. And telling them directly how they then plan to help fix those problems. I do think that that information exists if you want to look for it - but clearly a lot of people are getting other messages. My refusal to interact with them in daily life isn't changing that. 

It is unforgivable that any of these people voted for Trump. I still do not want to be friends with any of them. But winning election isn't about whether or not we forgive people or even like them. It's about reaching people who will show up to the polls and vote for the candidate you mutually believe will fix the problems we are facing. 

I also think it's fair if people who are personally harmed by any of this don't have the mental energy to do that. I am white, upper middle class, straight/cis, infertile, and was born in the US. I have the space to care about this because it's not directly harming me. It's ok if you (the general you) don't. 

[jeaniebueller]

Nov 8, 2024 9:11:05 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Nov 8, 2024 8:48:00 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

YES.

FFS, people. These fascist, nationalistic, racist, misogynistic fuckers are already sending awful text messages to Black university students around the country and threatening women with rape. Oh, you didn’t personally send those messages? Well, you voted for someone who supports them and has spewed vitriol himself. You made that bed. Fucking lie in it.

When I, a perpetually online liberal white woman, didn’t hear this specific story until this post (though am sadly unsurprised by this)…what makes you think millions of other voters knew about this and factored this into their vote?

Obviously there are numerous examples like this and the majority of people should have known what they were voting for, but I ask again, am I supposed to say fuck you to the Palestinian-American woman who voted for Trump as a protest against D policy? Or fuck you to the local Gen Z Black woman interviewed locally who voted for Trump for the first time because she doesn’t feel safe in this city and voted to shake up the status quo? I mean, maybe I should but I’d rather not.

The data will be interesting once its released since it seems so far that all signs point to Trump gaining voters in almost every demographic, not just white women. I also just want to say that I live in a red, rural area and there is no way I can cut every trump voter out of my life, and to what end? What does that solve or change minds? It doesn't mean I'm patting these people on the back or agreeing with them on anything political. But eliminating contact with all Trump voters is not realistic for 90% of the country and a lot of people in blue bubbles might be shocked to know how many people in their lives did vote differently than them. If you think that changing a hairdresser over their political affiliation means anything in the scheme of politics, we will keep losing. 

[jeaniebueller]

Nov 8, 2024 10:11:36 GMT -5 suzyp said:

Nov 8, 2024 9:19:12 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

For what it’s worth, the Democratic Party is not perfect and I don’t think that all of their policies are perfect. But we need to recognize how truly fucked up voting for Trump is and act accordingly to cut these people out our lives and organize effectively and appropriately. People have been doing this work for a long time and white people need to recognize that and reflect on how they uphold white supremacy. Voting for Trump is 100% a way that upholds white supremacy.

Didn't we have this same conversation after the 2016 election? How being "polite" around your racist Uncle contributed to Trump winning?  That we all had to take action, not be polite, etc.  So I don't understand how/why people are having the "I don't know what to do about Thankgiving" converations.  It's been 8+ years of him spewing this racist nonsense.

Yes Trump won because I'm not engaging in political discussion enough with my Trump voting distant family members every time I see them. 

[laladypoet]

Nov 8, 2024 10:11:36 GMT -5 suzyp said:

Nov 8, 2024 9:19:12 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

For what it’s worth, the Democratic Party is not perfect and I don’t think that all of their policies are perfect. But we need to recognize how truly fucked up voting for Trump is and act accordingly to cut these people out our lives and organize effectively and appropriately. People have been doing this work for a long time and white people need to recognize that and reflect on how they uphold white supremacy. Voting for Trump is 100% a way that upholds white supremacy.

Didn't we have this same conversation after the 2016 election? How being "polite" around your racist Uncle contributed to Trump winning?  That we all had to take action, not be polite, etc.  So I don't understand how/why people are having the "I don't know what to do about Thankgiving" converations.  It's been 8+ years of him spewing this racist nonsense.

Yes. But the demographics of the board have drastically changed. And i see why.

[Pom]

I haven't finished all the reading here, but the "fix" has been in for YEARS, and Dems keep on trying to play the same old playbook. Dems have a big tent and so many voters (and non voters) to excite and keep happy. Meanwhile the GOP has lapped us with hate, lies and dirty tricks.

-Fox news spewing "caravans a comin'" and Democrats wanna take your guns...how long has that been happening. Then add Breitbart, Newsmax, local news stations owned by powerful conservatives. But sure, the liberal media is the big problem. I don't think they are without fault, but come on.

-The long play on the Supreme Court and Mitch the Evil have fixed it so we will now have a conservative court for decades. This did not happen yesterday. This evil has been encroaching my whole life.

-Bro podcasters have given white men and "some" other disgruntled groups, a license to embrace their victimhood. It's not their fault they aren't happy, don't get enough sex, don't get to date "10"s, have to work harder instead of simply failing upward like men have been doing for centuries. I mean this shit makes them feel SO Good. So when the get their favorite misogynists on air, they all agree, they can't possibly vote for for the woman.

-Democrats are the scape goats for EVERYTHING. We traveled by car from Michigan to Mass. in September. Those Kamala=Crime signs, Trump=Border security, Kamala=higher costs, etc...were all over, and I was shocked at the number. It makes it an easy choice for people who are feeling dejected since COVID wrecked shit and who may or may not have a 401k. The GOP has been feeding them a steady diet of fear for YEARS.

-Misinformation: upthread it was mentioned. Other countries and thank you to our teachers here trying to do the work, are attempting to inoculate kids against disinformation. With the DOE on the chopping block, I mean...that terrifies me maybe the most.

-Immigration has been broken for decades. Just like the R's want it so they can run on it and fear monger brown and black people. Do our policies for dreamers and immigration need an overhaul and to be fixed? Yes. But the GOP will never let it happen. Shit being broken is their brand.

-Abortion. This one is where the dog that caught the car for the GOP. Women realize this shit is bad. It's unpopular among normal men. Google the popularity of rights to abortion and women's healthcare. And also, the R's don't give a fuck about women...it is about punishment and keeping us in our place. But it gets the religious people in line with the right, so cool I guess.

Voting rights, gerrymandering, electoral college, etc, etc, etc...... decades and decades in the making.

I am preaching to choir here, but we act like this all started in 2016 and it didn't. They just finally ran a populist who could Jim Jones together a cult and then scare up some additional voters. Someone at a higher paygrade with more brains than I possess, will need to figure out how we fight back. My money is on a bunch of smart people like Pete B. developing a strategy. It's going to be a bumpy ride. I just hope our first female president isn't Ivanka Trump, installed if dickhead actually lives 4 more years. JD Vance and Peter Theil and the rest of the Heritage Foundation Nazis terrify me.

I respect all the feelings here. Get out in your communities, when you are ready. Stay engaged. Rally up your trusted friends and support each other. It's what we have just now. Live to fight another day.

[underwaterrhymes]

To be clear, I am grateful for the work that some of you may do with the people in your life who are open to hearing why the GOP is not good for anyone but the wealthy and corporations. Truly.

But I am not going to be that person because it has not worked with the people in my world, so instead I have cut them out of my life to the degree that I can. (Regrettably, H’s stepfather is a Trumper, but H’s mom is lovely. I have made it ABUNDANTLY clear that if he brings any racist, homophobic or sexist crap around my children, he will not be welcome around them and he shows restraint because he knows I don’t tolerate that shit and I am not a wilting flower. He loves his grandkids and he loves my H, but that’s about the only kind thing I can say.)

Just a reminder, too, that a similar conversation was had when Vance wrote Hillbilly Elegy. Everyone said, “we aren’t listening to the needs of poor white people!” Wellll, look at what he is trying to do to our nation now.

[Gato]

Nov 8, 2024 9:43:35 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Nov 7, 2024 10:38:12 GMT -5 laladypoet said:

I believe every vote cast for Trump was 100% willing to at least overlook racism to get cheap eggs.

so Nazi-adjacent.

Ive read 7 pages of this thread so admit I don't know what else has been said.

While I agree with that statement, How come people aren't saying the same about Harris?  "every vote cast for Harris was 100% willing to at least overlook the funding of a genocide to get XYZ."

Why was it ok for Dems who may not agree with everything the party is doing to still vote for Harris, yet we are asking Republicans to not do the same when it comes to their option? 

There are more than human rights issues that people voted for/against. Humans at their core are selfish.  Lord of the Flies would play out over and over. 

It’s not an equivalent example. Obviously voting for Harris doesn’t mean you’re not racist, but Trump will actively make more racist choices when President.

I do believe Harris would have done more to help Gaza than Trump is going to. Now I can’t see how this ends well at all for the people in that region.

Voting 3rd party threw away a vote that could have at least promised sanity vs. abandonment.

[fryjack2]

Nov 8, 2024 11:25:56 GMT -5 Gato said:

Nov 8, 2024 9:43:35 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Ive read 7 pages of this thread so admit I don't know what else has been said.

While I agree with that statement, How come people aren't saying the same about Harris?  "every vote cast for Harris was 100% willing to at least overlook the funding of a genocide to get XYZ."

Why was it ok for Dems who may not agree with everything the party is doing to still vote for Harris, yet we are asking Republicans to not do the same when it comes to their option? 

There are more than human rights issues that people voted for/against. Humans at their core are selfish.  Lord of the Flies would play out over and over. 

It’s not an equivalent example. Obviously voting for Harris doesn’t mean you’re not racist, but Trump will actively make more racist choices when President.

I do believe Harris would have done more to help Gaza than Trump is going to. Now I can’t see how this ends well at all for the people in that region.

Voting 3rd party threw away a vote that could have at least promised sanity vs. abandonment.

Even with all the 3rd party votes, Harris would not have won.

people need to stop saying voting for anyone other than the democrat or republican option is throwing away a vote. Your vote is your voice. If you don’t agree with either party, you are free to vote for someone else who aligns better with your thoughts. I understand voting one way, even if you would rather not is a strategy to keep another candidate from winning.


I didn’t vote third party. I voted for Harris.

[Gato]

Nov 8, 2024 11:32:25 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Nov 8, 2024 11:25:56 GMT -5 Gato said:

It’s not an equivalent example. Obviously voting for Harris doesn’t mean you’re not racist, but Trump will actively make more racist choices when President.

I do believe Harris would have done more to help Gaza than Trump is going to. Now I can’t see how this ends well at all for the people in that region.

Voting 3rd party threw away a vote that could have at least promised sanity vs. abandonment.

Even with all the 3rd party votes, Harris would not have won.

people need to stop saying voting for anyone other than the democrat or republican option is throwing away a vote. Your vote is your voice. If you don’t agree with either party, you are free to vote for someone else who aligns better with your thoughts. I understand voting one way, even if you would rather not is a strategy to keep another candidate from winning.


I didn’t vote third party. I voted for Harris.

I’m absolutely not saying that Harris is owed a vote or that voting 3rd party is what lost the election.

I’m only saying that voting for Harris was the only way to vote if you actually want to help the people of Gaza. Harris would have improved things, I really believe this. Cornell West would not have improved things, nor would Jill Stein, because they had no chance of being elected.

If we’re talking about moral choices, Harris was the moral choice, because she had the chance to make change, to actually help.

If we’re talking about feeling good about who you voted for because that person says all the right things, the West, Sanders, and Nader have been great choices. But saying things is super easy; ultimately an ideologically pure candidate who gets nothing done, I think, is not a good moral choice.

[TR]

I don’t understand the people calling on Sotomayor to retire. Do they think the GOP-controlled House would let Biden nominate a new judge now? No way.

[jeaniebueller]

fryjack2, people in this group have no issues with Dems being single issue voters but struggle with Republicans being single issue voters (even though trump is probably just as racist/sexist/etc. as any other GOP candidate of years past).

don't get me wrong, trump will be an absolute disaster, but given the way that trump won the popular vote, people have to realize that there were single issue voters mixed in there.

[TR]

I also think some percentage of the weird voting splits can be attributed to people just voting for Trump and ignoring the down ballot races. That seems like it would be a common thing for his low information voters to do.

[rupertpenny]

Nov 8, 2024 11:56:32 GMT -5 TR said:

I don’t understand the people calling on Sotomayor to retire. Do they think the GOP-controlled House would let Biden nominate a new judge now? No way.

The House doesn't have anything to do with judicial appointments, so that wouldn't be an issue. I wouldn't put it past Joe Manchin or Kyrsten Sinema to fuck up a new appointment, however.

[fryjack2]

@gato sorry, I don’t believe Harris will be better for Palestine. And clearly many others don’t either. Nothing she has said or done has shown that she would be. Not only have we continued to fund and arm Israel, we are doing nothing but give empty warnings and pretend hand slapping when they continue to cross those imaginary bs lines.

But I know Trump would be worse. On that issues and every single other one I care about.

But to say that anyone voting for anyone other than Harris has flawed morals is shitty when peoples families are literally being killed in a genocide she and her party are supporting.

[laladypoet]

Nov 8, 2024 11:32:25 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Nov 8, 2024 11:25:56 GMT -5 Gato said:

It’s not an equivalent example. Obviously voting for Harris doesn’t mean you’re not racist, but Trump will actively make more racist choices when President.

I do believe Harris would have done more to help Gaza than Trump is going to. Now I can’t see how this ends well at all for the people in that region.

Voting 3rd party threw away a vote that could have at least promised sanity vs. abandonment.

Even with all the 3rd party votes, Harris would not have won.

people need to stop saying voting for anyone other than the democrat or republican option is throwing away a vote. Your vote is your voice. If you don’t agree with either party, you are free to vote for someone else who aligns better with your thoughts. I understand voting one way, even if you would rather not is a strategy to keep another candidate from winning.


I didn’t vote third party. I voted for Harris.

Its not just third party votes. Its the people who stayed home or voted for trump.

[lilac05]

On top of all of the valid things discussed in this thread, one thing we haven’t discussed is the historical global shift away from whatever party was in power the last handful of years. Regardless of the party, conservative/liberal, there’s never been as big of a shift from right-left or left-right. This article calls it an “anti-incumbent wave.”

And while Harris wasn’t technically an incumbent, she was 2nd in command, and most people have no idea how little power a VP has…so she might as well have been the incumbent.

www.vox.com/2024-elections/383208/donald-trump-victory-kamala-harris-global-trend-incumbents

[Gato]

Nov 8, 2024 12:17:09 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

@gato sorry, I don’t believe Harris will be better for Palestine. And clearly many others don’t either. Nothing she has said or done has shown that she would be. Not only have we continued to fund and arm Israel, we are doing nothing but give empty warnings and pretend hand slapping when they continue to cross those imaginary bs lines.

But I know Trump would be worse. On that issues and every single other one I care about.

But to say that anyone voting for anyone other than Harris has flawed morals is shitty when peoples families are literally being killed in a genocide she and her party are supporting.

I’m not at all saying people who didn’t vote for Harris have flawed morals. But I probably didn’t put it very clearly. I only meant that, in the sense of moral goodness, that is, which choice would be better for Palestinians, it seems with the two choices we had, one was clearly better. And third party or not voting would be completely ineffective.

I do believe Harris met with Netanyahu and reports are she pressed him fairly hard. Obviously she works for Biden and that limited what she could do. I suppose resigning was an option but other than that, her hands were pretty tied. She’s always believed in working for good within the system, and everything about her life leads me to believe she’s a moral person.

Trump obviously is not moral, and in addition is all mixed up with Christian Nationalism which is virulent in its hatred of Islam. I guess my feeling is that even if Harris isn’t who I believe she is, she would have been better than Trump.

If someone votes believing that, how can they be putting aside morals, to your original point?

[ellipses84]

I’ve had some time to put this in perspective and Kamala also came really close to winning, despite only having 3 months to campaign and being tied to a low approval Biden administration where she was hardly ever seen/heard from. I think the previous administration flip flop is true. Attention spans are short and incumbent advantage may be a thing of the past in a time of rapid world change. There was so much excitement and grass roots effort. This was not like Hillary in 2016, although misogyny and racism still had an impact. I know Dems will be afraid to put forward a female candidate but for the little girls out there, don’t say it can’t happen. That’s just more internalized misogyny (and I understand the pessimism about ever having a free and fair election again). There was voter suppression and election interference (like a whole bunch of 💣 threats from 🇷🇺).

People can’t understand inflation and unemployment being at an all time low when they are struggling to find a job and pay for groceries. This is 💯 from corporate greed, Private Equity ruining every industry, the middle class shrinking, and the rich getting richer. It’s been my personal passion project to educate everyone I know on this topic. I think simple messages about workers rights, pro unions and a healthy middle class can work. The Biden administration just wanted to wait until they fixed everything and that was too late. They did have a lot of Unions on their side. Did you know during 🍊’s Presidency a law was changed so there’s no waiting period for corporations to buy single family homes which is why private equity has bought up so much of the housing market and house prices / rents have gone up? They use property managers to act as slum lords, even for SFHs. Meanwhile real estate investors make $$$. It’s the new way of being a landlord for boomers without the hassle.

Republicans started treating politics like football and now MAGA people who never went to college have hats, shirts and tailgates to cheer for their team and feel a sense of community. Now that the truth is coming out about tariffs, Republicans aren’t too happy they aren’t going to be getting Christmas bonuses and grocery stores will be raising prices.

Some of my D friends said their smarter R acquaintances knew this wouldn’t be good for the economy or democracy but voted for him anyway because they didn’t think he’d win, and they always vote Republican because they are usually the minority in their blue states 🤦‍♀️ It’s the dog catching the car again. The older white women who voted for him have so much internalized misogyny and do not truly understand what is happening in states with abortion bans. They think it’s “leave it up to the states” and about optional abortions. A warning to Blue State voters that we were way too complacent this year, which is why she lost the popular vote. There’s no excuse with mail in ballots. And why we lost some important midterms races in 2022. Every Dem needs to vote every election. DEMOCRATS FOR DEMOCRACY!

[wildrice]

Nov 8, 2024 12:41:33 GMT -5 Gato said:

Nov 8, 2024 12:17:09 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

@gato sorry, I don’t believe Harris will be better for Palestine. And clearly many others don’t either. Nothing she has said or done has shown that she would be. Not only have we continued to fund and arm Israel, we are doing nothing but give empty warnings and pretend hand slapping when they continue to cross those imaginary bs lines.

But I know Trump would be worse. On that issues and every single other one I care about.

But to say that anyone voting for anyone other than Harris has flawed morals is shitty when peoples families are literally being killed in a genocide she and her party are supporting.

I’m not at all saying people who didn’t vote for Harris have flawed morals. But I probably didn’t put it very clearly. I only meant that, in the sense of moral goodness, that is, which choice would be better for Palestinians, it seems with the two choices we had, one was clearly better. And third party or not voting would be completely ineffective.

I do believe Harris met with Netanyahu and reports are she pressed him fairly hard. Obviously she works for Biden and that limited what she could do. I suppose resigning was an option but other than that, her hands were pretty tied. She’s always believed in working for good within the system, and everything about her life leads me to believe she’s a moral person.

Trump obviously is not moral, and in addition is all mixed up with Christian Nationalism which is virulent in its hatred of Islam. I guess my feeling is that even if Harris isn’t who I believe she is, she would have been better than Trump.

If someone votes believing that, how can they be putting aside morals, to your original point?

More than anything else, I think that when a minority group decides that a decision is right for their personal situation, it's not my place to tell them that it's wrong or that they are bad for making that choice. I don't walk in their shoes and it's not my family being impacted. I care about them in the same way I care about all humans, but it's a lot more abstract for me.

To this particular point I think there is a feeling that both candidates mean more genocide against Palestinians, so it really doesn't matter who actually gets their vote. Is there truly a "worse" when either way your family ends up dead? Sending the message that Harris does not have their vote might mean someone does something more next time to earn it. 

[Velar Fricative]

Nov 8, 2024 10:59:40 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

To be clear, I am grateful for the work that some of you may do with the people in your life who are open to hearing why the GOP is not good for anyone but the wealthy and corporations. Truly.

But I am not going to be that person because it has not worked with the people in my world, so instead I have cut them out of my life to the degree that I can. (Regrettably, H’s stepfather is a Trumper, but H’s mom is lovely. I have made it ABUNDANTLY clear that if he brings any racist, homophobic or sexist crap around my children, he will not be welcome around them and he shows restraint because he knows I don’t tolerate that shit and I am not a wilting flower. He loves his grandkids and he loves my H, but that’s about the only kind thing I can say.)

Just a reminder, too, that a similar conversation was had when Vance wrote Hillbilly Elegy. Everyone said, “we aren’t listening to the needs of poor white people!” Wellll, look at what he is trying to do to our nation now.

I thought maybe it was obvious but I have been focusing more on things like why non-white areas of the Bronx doubled their proportion of Trump votes from 2020. And why the people of Bay Ridge in Brooklyn swung further right despite an heavy Arab-American population. Are they all racist against themselves? And that’s this bubble I’m talking about I’m feeling here - do people on this board live in non-white places? Did they canvas in non-white communities? The former, likely not for the majority. The later, maybe more. This is not merely a repeat of 2016 when it was crystal clear that the “poor whites voting with their wallets” narrative was bullshit.