Wait, so do Torah Observant Jews/Christians keep a tent in the backyard for women on the rag?
Yanno, it's in the Torah, yo.
I always thought the tent thing was from when people actually lived in tents and small dwellings. So, if you're living in a one room tent and can't touch your spouse during their period it would make sense that they would have to move to a separate tent during that time. But now that we live in a culture where people no longer live in one room dwellings and have more space, people can have things like separate rooms, beds, chairs and things to sit on during that time of the month.
I'm not stupid, I recognize that the Torah can be applied to modern society. I guess I always assumed that avoiding pork was one of those things in Jewish Law that was the same throughout time. Pork hasn't changed with culture.
Can a Jew explain to me how they choose which Laws to follow and not?
No, that still doesn't make sense. If one can manage not to touch their wife in a house, one can manage not to touch their wife in a tent.
Plus, I'm willing to bet these were bigger tents than the two sleeping bag numbers at Costco.
Also, I'm dying at the notion that anyone keeps separate chairs, beds, and things to sit on for their menstrating wife. Does that happen anywhere? Hasidim maybe??
I thought the Law against pork had more to do with the nature of the animal itself - that it is a predator and is unclean because it will eat it's own and things like that. The way we prepare food is cleaner now, but I never thought that was the reason they avoid the foods. A pig is still a pig, right?
No, that still doesn't make sense. If one can manage not to touch their wife in a house, one can manage not to touch their wife in a tent.
Plus, I'm willing to bet these were bigger tents than the two sleeping bag numbers at Costco.
Also, I'm dying at the notion that anyone keeps separate chairs, beds, and things to sit on for their menstrating wife. Does that happen anywhere? Hasidim maybe??
In a time without tampons, access to running water and toilets, I would think that it would be hard to keep the blood away from the males of the household, even in a larger tent. I realize they weren't living in camping tents, but when a woman isn't even allowed to sit on the same surface as a man during her period, I don't know how that would work in the same small dwelling.
I guess I don't see where anyone is saying it is superior. I see it as acknowledging roots and honoring them.
You are so not reading AW. She is the most pompous "holier than thou" poster ever. Worse than me, even.
I don't have any opinion on anything in this thread other than this line. HAB has already decreed that *I* am the most pompous holier than though poster ever and AW can have that title when she pries it from cold, Papist hands.
Also, thank you TTT, because now whenever I see the word hippocrate, I can only think:
No, that still doesn't make sense. If one can manage not to touch their wife in a house, one can manage not to touch their wife in a tent.
Plus, I'm willing to bet these were bigger tents than the two sleeping bag numbers at Costco.
Also, I'm dying at the notion that anyone keeps separate chairs, beds, and things to sit on for their menstrating wife. Does that happen anywhere? Hasidim maybe??
In a time without tampons, access to running water and toilets, I would think that it would be hard to keep the blood away from the males of the household, even in a larger tent. I realize they weren't living in camping tents, but when a woman isn't even allowed to sit on the same surface as a man during her period, I don't know how that would work in the same small dwelling.
I'll out myself as having asked some really stupid questions about judiasm in college. One of my two BFF's from college is a reform jew, and she doesn't keep kosher. The first time I saw her eating a bacon cheeseburger I totally was an idiot and said, "wait...aren't you not supposed to eat that?" And rather than jump all over my ass, she just said, "oh, I dont keep kosher. My family is reform. It's pretty laid back in terms of all the rules."
I'm glad she wasn't offended by my ignorance, and instead just answered the question. We eventually had several interesting conversations about the different divisions in the jewish world.
You are so not reading AW. She is the most pompous "holier than thou" poster ever. Worse than me, even.
I don't have any opinion on anything in this thread other than this line. HAB has already decreed that *I* am the most pompous holier than though poster ever and AW can have that title when she pries it from cold, Papist hands.
Is there a crown we get with this title, because that would be very practical for me to have? As long as it's not a tichel crown, because that would make me a pompous, holier-than-thou poser and we can't have that.
There are tons of maxi skirts in all different fabrics available at every store right now, and there were even winter-y ones available this past season (even in dresses) that could be worn with boots.
In a time without tampons, access to running water and toilets, I would think that it would be hard to keep the blood away from the males of the household, even in a larger tent. I realize they weren't living in camping tents, but when a woman isn't even allowed to sit on the same surface as a man during her period, I don't know how that would work in the same small dwelling.
Okay, guys, Jewish education here for a second because I'm starting to get annoyed with the ignorance.
1) Speaking as a Reform Jew, Reform Jews do a lot of things. Some keep Kosher, but most don't. Keeping Kosher in the non-Orthodox community means a lot of things to a lot of people. The central definition of being a Reform Jew is having the right and the responsibility to interpret Jewish law for oneself. It's nuanced and varied. Even within the Conservative and Orthodox (non-Hassid) groups, you'll see different interpretations of different things. None of it really swings so wildly as in Reform, but you just can't lump any two Jews and their practices together.
2) Keeping kosher has nothing to do with food safety. Repeat after me: KEEPING KOSHER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FOOD SAFETY. If you believe this, you were taught wrong. Keeping kosher is a practice that is commanded in the Torah and expanded by the Rabbis in the Talmud. The understanding is that Jews are commanded to keep kosher because it separates us from those who are not Jews. It keeps us holy ("holiness" at its root means to "remain separate.")
I thought the Law against pork had more to do with the nature of the animal itself - that it is a predator and is unclean because it will eat it's own and things like that. The way we prepare food is cleaner now, but I never thought that was the reason they avoid the foods. A pig is still a pig, right?
im not on the up and up with the OT by any means so i want to get that out there.
also, i believe there was a reasoning for all of the bible in the first place and they used mythology as a way to solve problems they couldnt otherwise.
i am also pretty sure that cattle were not all that common in that part of the world back in the day. so it would make sense to eat mainly pork. but lacking refrigeration and other kinds of preparation, i can see how a lot of people would have gotten sick from eating pork. so a way to avoid your people getting sick is to create the idea that god told you not to eat it.
everything after that is just rationalizing it how you want - same as what you are doing with the tent and tampon thing.
but i view the entire bible as hogwash away, so
I have no idea how sound her theology is...but this is how my reform jewish friend explained it to me too.
Okay, guys, Jewish education here for a second because I'm starting to get annoyed with the ignorance.
1) Speaking as a Reform Jew, Reform Jews do a lot of things. Some keep Kosher, but most don't. Keeping Kosher in the non-Orthodox community means a lot of things to a lot of people. The central definition of being a Reform Jew is having the right and the responsibility to interpret Jewish law for oneself. It's nuanced and varied. Even within the Conservative and Orthodox (non-Hassid) groups, you'll see different interpretations of different things. None of it really swings so wildly as in Reform, but you just can't lump any two Jews and their practices together.
2) Keeping kosher has nothing to do with food safety. Repeat after me: KEEPING KOSHER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FOOD SAFETY. If you believe this, you were taught wrong. Keeping kosher is a practice that is commanded in the Torah and expanded by the Rabbis in the Talmud. The understanding is that Jews are commanded to keep kosher because it separates us from those who are not Jews. It keeps us holy ("holiness" at its root means to "remain separate.")
Can you elaborate for me as a Reform Jew about how you decide which laws to follow? I assume it's like it is in Christianity - you make decisions with prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit (not sure if Jews believe in something like a Holy Spirit, but you know what I mean). Do you eat pork? If not, what made you decide that it wasn't necessary.
You don't have to answer me, because I realize that's a very personal question.
maybe people just value bacon more highly than they value god. i know i do.
I have an otherwise vegetarian friend who eats bacon. Bacon has strange powers.
I was a vegetarian for a decade and my doctor wanted me to start eating meat because of my anemia. Bacon was the first meat I ate after my nearly ten year hiatus. After the first bite I never turned back. lol
Hey, I'm not sure if that was partially aimed at me. I'm sorry if it was.
I just thought it was interesting that my (her words, not mine) lazy jewish friend explained it to me (totally ignorant non-jewish person) similarly to how a total non-bible/OT/torah believer did. Like I said, I have no idea how sound her theology is and I've never assumed her beliefs applied to all jewish people, or even all reform jewish people. I also might have just misunderstood her explanation.
I doubt you misunderstood her, wawa. I've heard the same thing from a few Jewish people as well. But like you, I don't assume it applies to all or even most.
Tomorrow I'm smoking a pork shoulder for ~12 hours. It will then be consumed by a bunch of Jews and Muslims and a lonely Hindu who is the furthest thing from vegetarian. The only non pork eaters in attendance will be the atheists ironically. I'm feeding them grilled veggie pizzas
Tomorrow I'm smoking a pork shoulder for ~12 hours. It will then be consumed by a bunch of Jews and Muslims and a lonely Hindu who is the furthest thing from vegetarian. The only non pork eaters in attendance will be the atheists ironically. I'm feeding them grilled veggie pizzas
I thank you for your tolerance and indulgence of my fellow observant veg atheists and our religious culinary traditions ;D.
Hey, I'm not sure if that was partially aimed at me. I'm sorry if it was.
I just thought it was interesting that my (her words, not mine) lazy jewish friend explained it to me (totally ignorant non-jewish person) similarly to how a total non-bible/OT/torah believer did. Like I said, I have no idea how sound her theology is and I've never assumed her beliefs applied to all jewish people, or even all reform jewish people. I also might have just misunderstood her explanation.
ditto
i apologize if what i said was offensive
No no, I'm just tired. I spent most of the night hand addressing 250 invitations and now I'm thinking that labels might have been a better idea.
I also tend to take religious discussions waaayyyy too seriously and I'm working on that. I know this is a fun debate with Interwebz peeps and all and I don't always participate in the spirit that they are intended.
Edited: for some clarity No offense taken. I promise.
Okay, guys, Jewish education here for a second because I'm starting to get annoyed with the ignorance.
1) Speaking as a Reform Jew, Reform Jews do a lot of things. Some keep Kosher, but most don't. Keeping Kosher in the non-Orthodox community means a lot of things to a lot of people. The central definition of being a Reform Jew is having the right and the responsibility to interpret Jewish law for oneself. It's nuanced and varied. Even within the Conservative and Orthodox (non-Hassid) groups, you'll see different interpretations of different things. None of it really swings so wildly as in Reform, but you just can't lump any two Jews and their practices together.
2) Keeping kosher has nothing to do with food safety. Repeat after me: KEEPING KOSHER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH FOOD SAFETY. If you believe this, you were taught wrong. Keeping kosher is a practice that is commanded in the Torah and expanded by the Rabbis in the Talmud. The understanding is that Jews are commanded to keep kosher because it separates us from those who are not Jews. It keeps us holy ("holiness" at its root means to "remain separate.")
Can you elaborate for me as a Reform Jew about how you decide which laws to follow? I assume it's like it is in Christianity - you make decisions with prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit (not sure if Jews believe in something like a Holy Spirit, but you know what I mean). Do you eat pork? If not, what made you decide that it wasn't necessary.
You don't have to answer me, because I realize that's a very personal question.
I'll bite. The Torah says "do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk". A popular pagan delicacy was to slaughter a newborn calf or kid, and cook it up in a sauce made of it's own mother's milk. God said that is abhorrent; don't do that. Today among the orthodox, that has been interpreted to mean no meat of any kind shall ever touch dairy of any kind. Many have separate ovens, sets of dishes, and even dishwashers. They wait four hours between dairy and meat meals so they don't even mix in their stomaches. As a reform Jew, I am free to reject that interpretation. He did not say "don't eat cheese with your chicken sandwich;" He said "don't boil a kid in it's mother's milk". So we don't eat beef with milk or cheese.
God clearly said don't eat pork or shellfish. So we don't. We consider ourselves 'reformed kosher.'
Can you elaborate for me as a Reform Jew about how you decide which laws to follow? I assume it's like it is in Christianity - you make decisions with prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit (not sure if Jews believe in something like a Holy Spirit, but you know what I mean). Do you eat pork? If not, what made you decide that it wasn't necessary.
You don't have to answer me, because I realize that's a very personal question.
I'll bite. The Torah says "do not boil a kid in it's mother's milk". A popular pagan delicacy was to slaughter a newborn calf or kid, and cook it up in a sauce made of it's own mother's milk. God said that is abhorrent; don't do that. Today among the orthodox, that has been interpreted to mean no meat of any kind shall ever touch dairy of any kind. Many have separate ovens, sets of dishes, and even dishwashers. They wait four hours between dairy and meat meals so they don't even mix in their stomaches. As a reform Jew, I am free to reject that interpretation. He did not say "don't eat cheese with your chicken sandwich;" He said "don't boil a kid in it's mother's milk". So we don't eat beef with milk or cheese.
God clearly said don't eat pork or shellfish. So we don't. We consider ourselves 'reformed kosher.'
This makes sense to me. Thanks for sharing. I can see why both reform and more orthodox Jews do what they do.
Can you elaborate for me as a Reform Jew about how you decide which laws to follow? I assume it's like it is in Christianity - you make decisions with prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit (not sure if Jews believe in something like a Holy Spirit, but you know what I mean). Do you eat pork? If not, what made you decide that it wasn't necessary.
You don't have to answer me, because I realize that's a very personal question.
Honestly, I don't mind answering any questions about my personal Jewish experience, so feel free to ask me.
Are you talking about all the laws or just the laws of kashrut? The simple answer is I keep the commandments that I feel bring me closer to God and my community. I don't practice tzniut (laws regarding female modesty). I don't practice niddah (family purity laws). I'm not shomer shabbos (I do things on Shabbat that are considered "work".)
By the same token, I don't keep a kosher home. In all honesty, I think a lot of not keeping kosher is because I'm lazy. I have to ask myself am I just going to keep kosher at home or am I going to keep "torah kosher", meaning am I only going to follow the laws specifically mentioned in the Torah. Or do I really study and understand the Talmudic writings on keeping kosher? They are very specific and confusing. Secondly, I don't really have support in my community. Nothing in Reform prohibits me from keeping kosher. A lot of Reform Jews do to a certain extent or as a continuation of what they grew up with (if they didn't grow up Reform), but their are not a lot of practical resources and I'm uncomfortable seeking them out in the conservative or orthodox communities.
I also don't want to practice something that I'm doing just for the sake of doing it. I want to go into it with an open heart and clear understanding of what it means to keep kosher. But then as I struggle with my decision, I also remember na'aseh v'nishma --- "We will do and we will understand." This means that in the acting of doing the commandments God has given us, we seek to understand it's meaning. Not the other way around.
So, AW, you can see this is a very conflicting issue for me. Sometimes I want to keep kosher. Sometimes I want to be more observant. My husband will support me, but who else? It's a struggle that a lot of my Jewish friends deal with, especially Jews by choice.
In the meantime, I don't keep kosher, but I do refrain from consuming explicitly prohibited foods in the Torah. Until I decide what else fits for me and my family, my journey continues.