From the Jewish people I grew up with in NJ, being conservative or reform was one thing and kosher was another. I knew conservatives who kept kosher and those who didn't and I knew reforms who kept kosher and those who didn't.
AW going back a few pages, I realize that head covering is a new testament issue, however, I thought it was pretty clear that Paul was speaking to people of that culture. Not saying that God wants all women to cover their heads. A lot in the Bible is open to interpretation, however I thought that point was pretty clear. Anyway, if you think God wants you covering your head, then by all means. I don't think you should get slack for it. I thought it was amusing, for lack of a better word, that the type of people who would freak out over seeing a Muslim are basically your people: Christian and conservatives. If you lived in a more liberal area, you wouldn't have those issues.
I do believe a lot of the fundies adopting Jewish traditions, at least the ones I know, do NOT do it to look more Jewish. It seems like they do it to further distinguish themselves from other Christians. I know of a few families who consider themselves Primitive Baptist and if you refer to them as Baptist, they will correct you. As if Baptists aren't conservative enough, these people are even more so. They do a lot of old testament traditions and I could see how one could think they are trying to be Jewish. But really it seems to me that they are just trying to be even more old school. Since we all know the NT is more laid back in a lot of ways than the OT, they want OT lifestyle as much as possible.
Can you elaborate for me as a Reform Jew about how you decide which laws to follow? I assume it's like it is in Christianity - you make decisions with prayer and guidance of the Holy Spirit (not sure if Jews believe in something like a Holy Spirit, but you know what I mean). Do you eat pork? If not, what made you decide that it wasn't necessary.
You don't have to answer me, because I realize that's a very personal question.
Honestly, I don't mind answering any questions about my personal Jewish experience, so feel free to ask me.
Are you talking about all the laws or just the laws of kashrut? The simple answer is I keep the commandments that I feel bring me closer to God and my community. I don't practice tzniut (laws regarding female modesty). I don't practice niddah (family purity laws). I'm not shomer shabbos (I do things on Shabbat that are considered "work".)
By the same token, I don't keep a kosher home. In all honesty, I think a lot of not keeping kosher is because I'm lazy. I have to ask myself am I just going to keep kosher at home or am I going to keep "torah kosher", meaning am I only going to follow the laws specifically mentioned in the Torah. Or do I really study and understand the Talmudic writings on keeping kosher? They are very specific and confusing. Secondly, I don't really have support in my community. Nothing in Reform prohibits me from keeping kosher. A lot of Reform Jews do to a certain extent or as a continuation of what they grew up with (if they didn't grow up Reform), but their are not a lot of practical resources and I'm uncomfortable seeking them out in the conservative or orthodox communities.
I also don't want to practice something that I'm doing just for the sake of doing it. I want to go into it with an open heart and clear understanding of what it means to keep kosher. But then as I struggle with my decision, I also remember na'aseh v'nishma --- "We will do and we will understand." This means that in the acting of doing the commandments God has given us, we seek to understand it's meaning. Not the other way around.
So, AW, you can see this is a very conflicting issue for me. Sometimes I want to keep kosher. Sometimes I want to be more observant. My husband will support me, but who else? It's a struggle that a lot of my Jewish friends deal with, especially Jews by choice.
In the meantime, I don't keep kosher, but I do refrain from consuming explicitly prohibited foods in the Torah. Until I decide what else fits for me and my family, my journey continues.
Thanks for answering.
I can see how hard it would be to decide to keep kosher and not have the support of friends and family. Also, if you don't live an area with a large population kleeping kosher, how would you find food to eat without going completely vegan?
My spiritual journey has taken me places that a lot of my friends and family don't understand or support, so I know how hard that can be.
AW going back a few pages, I realize that head covering is a new testament issue, however, I thought it was pretty clear that Paul was speaking to people of that culture. Not saying that God wants all women to cover their heads. A lot in the Bible is open to interpretation, however I thought that point was pretty clear.
Anyway, if you think God wants you covering your head, then by all means. I don't think you should get slack for it. I thought it was amusing, for lack of a better word, that the type of people who would freak out over seeing a Muslim are basically your people: Christian and conservatives. If you lived in a more liberal area, you wouldn't have those issues.
There are a lot of differences in opinion on the headcovering issue. Some think it's purely cultural, some think it isn't. Just yesterday in another thread I think it was HAB who said that Paul was writing to specific cultures in his Epistles and so not everything is applicable to us. I disagree. I feel that if Paul had this concern for the church of Corinth - that women should cover their heads as a sign of submission - he would have the same concern for me today. Just my opinion. I take into consideration the fact that the church continued the practice into the 20th century to mean that we didn't start viewing it as a cultural command until society started focusing on women's rights and dressing less modestly in general. I also believe that if we look at the women who were part of the early church (mostly Jewish women with their heads covered) and who Paul was asking to cover their heads (the non Jews who hadn't adopted this practice), it tells me that I as a Christian woman should adopt the practice. Just my belief. I don't think it's a salvation issue, it's just something that I feel God called me to do and that ultimately brings me closer to Him. I completely understand how other Christians interpret those verses differnetly and purely culturally.
You may be right that it's "my people" as in Christians (although I'd argue that I don't claim most Americans that identify as conservative Christians as mine) who would most likely treat me differently in a hijab, but I'm not sure. I think it has more to do with where we live, not religion or politics. You just don't see a lot of Muslims in this area of the world.
It's actually not hard to find food that's kosher. Meat that's kosher is probably more difficult but most foods on your grocery shelf are kosher. If you go dig out a box of pasta from your cabinet, you should notice a K or a U on the label somewhere. That indicates that the product is kosher. If there is a D nearby, it means it's kosher but has a dairy product in it so you won't want to mix that with a meat product. A P or the word pareve (which I might have spelled wrong) indicates it has neither meat nor dairy in it.
Now what you do to it after that could keep it from being kosher but there you go.
Also, cleaning products need to be kosher as well.
There is also the difficulty in finding kosher restaurants. When I nannied for a rabbi's family, we used to go to a kosher chinese restaurant. They had to have a rabbi on staff and on the premises in order to retain their kosher status as well as comply with kosher cleaning regulations.
So it's not finding the food that's the problem per se. It's having the support of knowing the rules and applying them to your kitchen and to your life outside of your kitchen.
This would be my guess anyway. I am not Jewish and certainly not an authority on Judaism. I was just a live in nanny for a rabbi's family who kept kosher which is only a step or two away from "I stayed at a holiday inn last night." Interestingly enough, the rabbi, a Reform Jew wasn't really into keeping kosher. Were it up to him, he wouldn't and in public, he often didn't. His wife, a Conservative Jew, wanted to keep kosher and had it written into their ketubah that they would keep a kosher household and thus they, and whatever nanny they hired did, within the house of course.
During passover week, once she got home from work, he'd take me out to a dinner somewhere so we could eat dinner. I didn't find keeping kosher during the rest of the year that much of a trial. Once everything is in place, it's relatively easy to pick up.* But during passover . . . OMG!!!
*because I don't know that she kept strict kosher. I know we had separate dishes, separate sinks, separate loads in the dishwasher but I don't even want to pretend that makes me some kind of authority or anything. For all I know, she was cutting corners somewhere or was lax in areas. IDK.
I appreciate your input, Hab. You're right. It's not hard to find kosher packaged goods. It IS hard to find kosher meat and dairy in areas that have small observant Jewish populations. In my city, we have a medium sized Jewish population, but we have ONE kosher meat seller.
AW, in case you're interested, there has been a movement towards something called ethical kashrut. It's the idea that in addition to eating foods according to the laws of kashrut, Jews are recognizing the importance of being mindful of animal treatment (Tzar baalei haim, the mistreatment of animals is specifically forbidden in the Torah; Exodus 23:12), treatment of workers and their working conditions (Leviticus 19:13, Deuteronomy 24:14), and environmental impact (Genesis 2:15.)
It's something that we strive to do in our home. So like I said, we avoid prohibited foods and we don't mix meat and dairy. But we also try to buy our foods from producers who we feel are also committed to growing and producing food responsibly, ethically, and sustainably. This type of practice fits very well within our Reform home and with the tenet of tikkun olam, repairing our world.
ETA: During Passover, we're definitely very strict, however we're also a Sephardic family, so where are thing we eat that Ashkenazi Jews are not allowed to.
I also wanted to come back and say that keeping kosher is about so much more than finding some kosher pretzels. The actual food preparation seems to be a very small part of it though it can be tricky I would think if you didn't grow up keeping kosher to find meals that appeal to your palate and your sense of personal food satisfaction. I know it was very odd when I started that job to eat some pasta dishes because I couldn't fathom the idea of feeling like it was yummy without meat and cheese in my ziti.
It's also a sense of community I would think, of fellowship with people who believe as you do, of having friends you can share a meal with or just friends you don't have to explain it to. Like what do you do for your child's birthday party when none of your friends keep kosher or understand it? What about sending your child to day care or when they are invited to birthday parties at someone else's home?
I appreciate your input, Hab. You're right. It's not hard to find kosher packaged goods. It IS hard to find kosher meat and dairy in areas that have small observant Jewish populations. In my city, we have a medium sized Jewish population, but we have ONE kosher meat seller.
AW, in case you're interested, there has been a movement towards something called ethical kashrut. It's the idea that in addition to eating foods according to the laws of kashrut, Jews are recognizing the importance of being mindful of animal treatment (Tzar baalei haim, the mistreatment of animals is specifically forbidden in the Torah; Exodus 23:12), treatment of workers and their working conditions (Leviticus 19:13, Deuteronomy 24:14), and environmental impact (Genesis 2:15.)
It's something that we strive to do in our home. So like I said, we avoid prohibited foods and we don't mix meat and dairy. But we also try to buy our foods from producers who we feel are also committed to growing and producing food responsibly, ethically, and sustainably. This type of practice fits very well within our Reform home and with the tenet of tikkun olam, repairing our world.
ETA: During Passover, we're definitely very strict, however we're also a Sephardic family, so where are thing we eat that Ashkenazi Jews are not allowed to.
I am very interested.
As a non-Jew, I don't feel bound to Jewish Law (not even the 10 commandments, which I feel are part of Hewish Law). As a non-Jew I feel that I am bound to the Seven Laws of Noah. One of those laws involves making sure you do not eat meat that is cut from a live animal. I take that to mean that the food I eat should have been treated well not only during slaughter, but also while it was living. This is why I am so passionate about my meat being from local sources where I can see how it is being taken care of and slaughtered. Even the milk I drink and eggs I eat have to come from animals that were ethically treated. It's a part of my faith and I feel that eating this way pleases and honors God.
I'm a person that likes rules and ritual. They make me feel safe and closer to God for some reason. I like having rules for the way I eat, the way I dress, everything, because then when I am doing those things (cooking and getting dressed) I find myself focusing on doing them for God. I realize that to other Christians it makes me sound like a legalist, but I don't think it's legalism at all. I know my salvation isn't dependent on doing these things, but I feel that doing them does make God happy and keep my heart focused on Him instead of the world.
So to smo - maybe God isn't calling you to cover your head. That is fine. Don't cover. He has called me to do it. And every morning when I get dressed and put it on I think of Him. Every time I notice it on my head I think of Him. It's a tool I use to keep my eyes on Him and on my commitment to my husband. I don't see why you have such a problem with that.
I also wanted to come back and say that keeping kosher is about so much more than finding some kosher pretzels. The actual food preparation seems to be a very small part of it though it can be tricky I would think if you didn't grow up keeping kosher to find meals that appeal to your palate and your sense of personal food satisfaction. I know it was very odd when I started that job to eat some pasta dishes because I couldn't fathom the idea of feeling like it was yummy without meat and cheese in my ziti.
It's also a sense of community I would think, of fellowship with people who believe as you do, of having friends you can share a meal with or just friends you don't have to explain it to. Like what do you do for your child's birthday party when none of your friends keep kosher or understand it? What about sending your child to day care or when they are invited to birthday parties at someone else's home?
I don't know if you read my response, but you're putting into other words pretty much what I struggle with.
I did and I figured that's what you were talking about but I didn't want my other response about food on the shelves and such to sound like I was saying, pshaw, it's so easy if only you try.
At minimum, I didn't want anyone else to read it that way and misunderstand the difficulties of keeping kosher.
So to smo - maybe God isn't calling you to cover your head. That is fine. Don't cover. He has called me to do it. And every morning when I get dressed and put it on I think of Him. Every time I notice it on my head I think of Him. It's a tool I use to keep my eyes on Him and on my commitment to my husband. I don't see why you have such a problem with that.
Because as a faith based woman myself, I find this misguided. That's why I have a problem. Clearly I'm not in your relationship with God, but I have a hard time believing in Christ, in God, saying that your head covering is somehow bringing you closer to Him.
All clothing is material, of this world. Man looks at the outward, GOD looks at the heart. (1 Sam 16:7) So maybe examine who you're submitting to, because God isn't looking at your head any more than he's looking at that little girl's leopard hooker scarf from the thread yesterday.
Covering your head is not even one of the 613 commandments. It a Jewish custom with uncertain origin that supposed to show respect for God. Probably also to set Jews apart, since they've historically been into that. It's clearly thought to be proper when praying (formal praying, like on Shabbot or in temple). The Torah only mentions head covering once and it's in reference to proper temple garments in the Temple (which no longer exists.)
AW I thought the Noahide laws were Jewish and not Christian.
Also, keep in mind Paul also said that women were to not speak in church. They were to wait until they got home to ask their husbands. 1 Cor 14:34
I know many fundie women who don't follow this law. Point is, nobody really follows the bible these days. It's pretty much impossible which is why I roll my eyes at people who start any sentence with, "The bible says...."
Not you AW. You are actually one of the most open minded fundies I know and believe me I know a lot.
So to smo - maybe God isn't calling you to cover your head. That is fine. Don't cover. He has called me to do it. And every morning when I get dressed and put it on I think of Him. Every time I notice it on my head I think of Him. It's a tool I use to keep my eyes on Him and on my commitment to my husband. I don't see why you have such a problem with that.
Because as a faith based woman myself, I find this misguided. That's why I have a problem. Clearly I'm not in your relationship with God, but I have a hard time believing in Christ, in God, saying that your head covering is somehow bringing you closer to Him.
All clothing is material, of this world. Man looks at the outward, GOD looks at the heart. (1 Sam 16:7) So maybe examine who you're submitting to, because God isn't looking at your head any more than he's looking at that little girl's leopard hooker scarf from the thread yesterday.
IMO everything we do is either for God or for ourselves (and therefore for our sinful desires). God calls us to do everything for Him and for His glory.
Many things are material and from this world. The churches we build are of this world, but there are many people who find comfort in them or feel closer to God while they are inside of them. The music people listen to (even Christian music) is of this world, yet people still find comfort in it or feel like it helps draw them closer to God in worship.
You're misinterpreting what I'm saying. God isn't looking at the scarf. He's looking at my intentions behind putting on the scarf - that it's a symbol of my devotion to Him and to my husband, that I am sacrificing a part of my flesh (my desire to be pretty and show off my pretty hair) for Him. Can other women show God those things without covering their heads? Of course. But this is part of my journey to overcome vanity and submission issues that I have, and God laid it on my heart to help draw me closer to Him.
Everything I do I ask if I'm doing it for me or for God. Even the insignificant worldly material things that we tend to think don't matter. For me, by making those things about Him it helps me to keep my focus where I feel it needs to be.
I'm also surprised at your response because I can't tell you how many times I am told that I am pretending to know what God wants or thinks, yet for some reason it's fine for you to say that you think you know what God thinks about my scarf. You don't know any more than I know what happens in your private worship.
AW I thought the Noahide laws were Jewish and not Christian.
Also, keep in mind Paul also said that women were to not speak in church. They were to wait until they got home to ask their husbands. 1 Cor 14:34
I know many fundie women who don't follow this law. Point is, nobody really follows the bible these days. It's pretty much impossible which is why I roll my eyes at people who start any sentence with, "The bible says...."
Not you AW. You are actually one of the most open minded fundies I know and believe me I know a lot.
The formal title of the Noahide laws was given by the Jews, yes, but the same commands can be found in the Bible that Christians read. If you research the early church you will find historians that discovered Paul preaching that Gentiles are supposed to follow the laws of Noah. Acts 15 discusses what the early church demanded of Gentiles. The Noahide laws were historically commands given to Christians for righteous living (not that good works buy salvation, but that this conduct is expected of a Christian to set them apart from the rest of the world). When I made that connection for myself everything made so much more sense. The NT is full of contradictions where sometimes it talks about the law and sometimes it talks about freedom from the law. For me, realizing that we are free from Jewish law but still bound by Noahide law made all of those contradictions disappear.
I respect that others have a different interpretation. It's just what makes sense to me right now in my journey.
As for Paul saying women shouldn't speak in church, my interpretation of that text is something different. I will explain it for you if you like, but I'll spare you the long answer for now.
sydney - I forgot to mention. The 10 Commandments are Jewish Law, yet Christians seem to be all about them (to the point that they are upset they are being removed from public places). If Christians are free from Jewish Law, why on earth are we still bound to those commandments? Jesus talked about some of them, but in a general sense, not that Christians are bound to keep them. If we are bound, why in the world don't we keep a Sabbath? I would argue that church on Sunday morning isn't a Biblical Sabbath, even if the intention is to give that day to the Lord.
I've never really researched it, but I wonder when Christians started clinging to the 10 commandments as if they were meant for us. We must just be trying to be "fake Jews"
I'm sorry but I read these posts from you, AW and I can't help but think of the pharisees. Don't you think that perhaps the way you chose to present yourself could also be taken as a show to prove to others how faithful you are? Because honest, the more you describe it, the stronger vibe I get along those lines.
I mean really, I don't know you and I'm just reading what you say through my own eyes but yeah.
Church buildings are for man. Us as a church, the people, is for God. i.e. body is a temple. Music and rock shows are for man, the opportunity to introduce people to God through a common like. Your personal worship with God is personal and with that belief, He knows if your worship is genuine. You don't need a band to do that for you.
Going with that example... your head covering is like saying, I'll only sing "Blessed Assurance" because God is telling me that song will get me closer to Him. Plus the song has been around forevs, so that is what I'm submitting to. Only that song. Any Amy Grant, Hillsong, or Kirk Franklin isn't cutting it.
If you re-read, I said I don't know, and never will know what is going on in your relationship with God. Never claimed to. Your intentions or purpose based on what you've said here, based on the faith that we both seem to share, IMO, is misguided.
You said your husband doesn't care if you wear the head coverings. So, I don't know why you added him into this bit either.
The thing is, you saying that you cover your head for the sake of avoiding vanity, is sort of a back handed way that those who believe in God, that don't cover their hair, are vain women. I wasn't created with a head covering attached to my head. My hair is my head covering. If it were to fall out tomorrow, I'd shed some tears, and move along.
My hair isn't an idol. I don't put it above my relationship with God, or make it something that it's not. It doesn't get me closer to God, or provoke men in an indecent way.
I think your personal vanity/flesh reasoning along with your prudish judgments of that little girl's appearance, is what's making me think that this isn't about submitting to God. It fits into your world, while making out others to be shameful or vain.
I'm not following your first paragraph. A physical church building and worship bands are both worldly things that help people worship God. They are things that help to strengthen their connection to God in worship. Some people like to worship in a physical church building and some people prefer to worship in the naked outdoors. Both are valid places to worship. Some people prefer to worship with their heads covered and others prefer to worship with their head "naked". Both are valid ways to worship. It all depends on what experience brings you closer to God and aids you in your worship. What is God asking you to do to worship Him?
Your example with the songs doesn't make sense to me. To me, the idea of headcovering is like the idea of worshipping with music. Some people like to use it and some don't. If I decided that I had to use the same exact headcovering every time I worshipped and it had to be tied the same exact way, maybe that would be the equivalent of thinking you could only use the same songs in worship. I don't believe that. But even so, it would be valid. There are denominations out there with strict rules about what type of music is allowed. Some will only use hymns. Some will not use instruments. Some won't allow a woman's voice. The great thing is that they are all valid forms of worship and are all ways that help different people feel closer to God.
My husband left the decision to cover up to me. He didn't feel it was initially necessary. He told me to do whatever God was asking me to do and he would support it. (Oddly enough, we had a man stop at our door yesterday and I answered it uncovered. Dh called me out on it. That was a first. lol) But even if it wasn't his idea, it doesn't mean the symbolism TO ME isn't about him. DH could decide that tomorrow he is going to say a prayer from now on every day asking God to help him love me like Christ loved the church. This would be a form of worship - something between him and God that I am not involved with, but is very much about me. My headcovering is the same. It reminds me to keep a submissive heart for my husband.
You're free to think my description of what this practice means to me reflects on you somehow. I do not believe it does. Just like I don't believe your saying that your hair isn't an idol doesn't reflect on me. Just because you said that I don't believe you think that I believe my hair is an idol (maybe you do, I don't really care). I don't view it as an idol and the only way I would maybe think your saying that was a backhanded comment toward me was if I was insecure about the fact that I was using my hair as an idol. I'm not, so whatever. I'm glad you don't view yours as an idol either.
I'm sorry that you believe such a personal decision between me and God has something to do with you or any other woman. It doesn't. I hope that you have a personal relationship with Christ and that He calls on you to serve Him in different ways and that when you answer Him you are doing it only for Him. I guess the only way you're going to see how I could be doing that in this case is if you have experienced it and done that for yourself. I am pretty sure you have and are capable of relating your experience to others.
I'm sorry but I read these posts from you, AW and I can't help but think of the pharisees. Don't you think that perhaps the way you chose to present yourself could also be taken as a show to prove to others how faithful you are? Because honest, the more you describe it, the stronger vibe I get along those lines.
I mean really, I don't know you and I'm just reading what you say through my own eyes but yeah.
And every time you call me a Pharisee for expressing what I believe, I am more convinced that you have no idea what a Pharisee is. This is besides the fact that Jesus called us to look at ourselves and pull the plank out before we started tossing names around to others. By definition, calling another sister in Christ a Pharisee could have you treading dangerously close to Pharisee territory yourself.
If I were a Pharisee I would be telling EVERY woman that she has to do this in order to be holy or righteous. I would be applying standards to others that I myself was not following. Jesus called the Pharisees out for expecting things of others that they were not doing (expecting others to follow the Law when they didn't do it themselves/didn't truly understand the point behind the Law).
I am not telling other women they should cover their hair. I have made it perfectly clear that this is something between me and God and that not all women may be called to do so. I also am not asking other believers to do something that I myself am not doing. Therefore, I don't get the Pharisee thing.
If talking about your faith makes you a Pharisee, everyone witnessing to Christ, including the early church fathers, saints throughout history, and pastors/teachers/everyone else in churches and schools would be guilty. We don't talk about our faith to show how faithful we are. We talk about our faith because it IS who we are. I hope you can see the difference
I am referring to the chapter where the Pharisees were chided for praying loudly in public for all the world to hear so that all random passerby may see how "faithful" they are. And I think you well understand what I'm trying to say.
Also, I would like to know where it is written that Christians cannot criticize one another or their beliefs or actions. This notion that because we are sisters in Christ that neither of us can have a word of disagreement among each other is foolish.
And I didn't say that talking about your faith makes you a Pharisee and I am not even calling you a Pharisee. I am simply making a parallel between one action in particular the Pharisees were criticized for and how you have chosen to "show" your faith and I wondered if perhaps you'd ever given that some thought.
Also, I believe Galatians speaks about knowing a tree by its fruit and I wondered if there were any actions by which you are proclaiming the gospel of Christ besides taking on a style of modest dress. I'm sure there are. I guess I'm just wondering if they are obvious and attention getting as your style of dress.
I do think that you are being passive aggressive with this. I think that, just like the little girl, you are making a statement that your head covering makes you more holy or righteous, and that others who don't are somehow less so.
I disagree. Others can judge the end result or message received by such a gesture, but others can not know the motivation and meaning. Others are mistaken when they believe they can see the external message received and know the intent behind it. Only Aw can know her reason for wearing the head covering. Any judgements you make about why she did it are a product of your mind and perspective, not Aw's true intentions.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
AW we did a study a long time ago on Corinthians and what Paul meant and all I can say is that there are numerous opinions on the matter. What most agree on is that, like head coverings, he was referring to women from that culture to respect the laws so they can remain Godly women. Not that God specifically didn't want them to speak in church.
My conclusion is people use the bible for when it suits them. If they are bashing homosexuals, well, then it's black and white. The bible says it's wrong. If someone was trying to tell their wife not to speak in church, well, that's a grey area. That's not exactly what it means.
to me Matthew 6 vs 1-6 is about as black and white as it gets about not being showy in prayer. Yet bring this up to Christians regarding Tim Tebow or making a spectacle over praying in a restaurant, and it's all, "Well, I don't think it's showing off."
Anyway, AW at least you are open minded in regards to believing that this is how you are supposed to live your life. Not how others should live.
I am referring to the chapter where the Pharisees were chided for praying loudly in public for all the world to hear so that all random passerby may see how "faithful" they are. And I think you well understand what I'm trying to say.
Also, I would like to know where it is written that Christians cannot criticize one another or their beliefs or actions. This notion that because we are sisters in Christ that neither of us can have a word of disagreement among each other is foolish.
And I didn't say that talking about your faith makes you a Pharisee and I am not even calling you a Pharisee. I am simply making a parallel between one action in particular the Pharisees were criticized for and how you have chosen to "show" your faith and I wondered if perhaps you'd ever given that some thought.
Also, I believe Galatians speaks about knowing a tree by its fruit and I wondered if there were any actions by which you are proclaiming the gospel of Christ besides taking on a style of modest dress. I'm sure there are. I guess I'm just wondering if they are obvious and attention getting as your style of dress.[/quote
Well, we never know someone's heart. Someone could be praying on the street corner with the intent to honestly worship God. Does it make them a Pharisee just because they are praying where people can see them? My family prays before every meal, regardless of where we are, even at restaurants or at a park having a picnic. Are we Pharisees? Only God knows our hearts. Apparently you feel that I like to talk about my faith and Christ just so that I can be seen. That's interesting on an anonymous chat board. I don't know any of you personally, so I'm not sure what purpose my praying just so you can hear would serve. I talk about my faith here because I like to talk about it and because I learn from other posters here. It's a current events board and religion often comes up.
Which leads to your second question. There is a difference between addressing differences in beliefs and being critical of someone else's beliefs. There are many Christians on this board, even in this thread, who have asked questions about what I've posted and then I've in turn asked about what they have posted. I feel there is nothing wrong with someone respectfully disagreeing with what I believe and pointing to Scripture or their own convictions to back it up. That's how we learn and grow from each other. That is different than calling someone out by calling them a name (a Pharisee, legalist, etc.) for what they believe. I can say "I disagree with your interpretation of 1 Corinthians and think that it was simply a cultural mandate" and that's one thing. But saying "You're wrong about 1 Corinthians 11 and because you cover your hair you must be a legalist that is wanting to appear extra pious" is another.
I actually believe that we are supposed to point out where we disagree as brothers and sisters in Christ. If you see me doing or saying something that you believe isn't Biblical, I WANT you to tell me. Matthew 18:15 tells us that if a brother or sister in Christ sins we should go to them PRIVATELY to discuss it. There's a right way and a wrong way to bring up disagreements with a fellow believer that doesn't shame them publicly.
What ways am I proclaiming the Gospel of Christ? I'm not sure what you're asking here. I live my life for Him. Everything is about Him. I serve at my church and in my community where needed. I try to give when God asks me to. I'm not perfect and I sin every day by ignoring Him, but my intent is to live for Him. Obvious ways? When you open my front door the first thing you see is "As for me and my house we shall serve the Lord" from Joshua 24:15(?). There is a cross hanging from my rear-view mirror. If you're at my house you'll hear either the Bible on DVD or Christian music playing. This list could go on, but these are stupid, insignificant things. I share my faith with anyone that asks me about it. I wear my faith on my sleeve, so to speak. Not for me and because I want the glory. I do it for God's glory, because I want the world to know how amazing He is. If that makes me a Pharisee, so be it. We're all Pharisees in one way or another, because none of us are perfect.
Also SMO and HAB I l agree w/ your posts. I like the way you think.
I guess I'm just wondering if they are obvious and attention getting as your style of dress.
Not to condescend you AW, but I think HAB is right. It may not even be conscious but it does seem like certain actions of Christians are in efforts to distance themselves from other Christians. I wonder that about people like the Duggar girls who wear Star of David necklaces. The cross isn't distinct enough.
God doesn't even care what we look like, unless we're using our bodies to invite sinful behavior.
Agreed. And it ends up having the opposite effect. In efforts to not appear vain, one has to put more effort into not appearing so. AW you said you have hair past your waist. How much effort must that take to maintain? How much effort do you have to put into finding the right denim skirts and culottes? I'll bet you end up putting more time into your appearance than many mainstream women do. Just something to think about.
I think you are deliberately choosing not to hear my point and not to understand the passage about that particular Pharisee. I don't expect you to agree with it, just the opposite in fact. But you seem to fundamentally refuse to even see what point I'm trying to make.
At this point, I think it's on purpose.
Also, I'm dying at the notion that only you can say what is and what isn't a proper way to criticize another Christian.
My first paragraph is stating that we have earthly things here that we create to open opportunities for people to come to know God. However, the personal, one-on-one relationship with God is in our own hands, no one else. So we can use the earthly things to draw people to God, but it's their heart that will determine their salvation.
Singing Blessed Assurance isn't going to get me closer to God over singing Jesus Loves Me. Your head covering is saying that one thing that you deem particularly sacred (one method is better than another type thing) is somehow supposed to get you closer to God, when our bodies, hair, tattoos, and all, are not going to go to heaven. God doesn't even care what we look like, unless we're using our bodies to invite sinful behavior.
I do think that you are being passive aggressive with this. I think that, just like the little girl, you are making a statement that your head covering makes you more holy or righteous, and that others who don't are somehow less so.
I think you're misunderstanding me. When I say my headcovering brings me closer to God I'm not saying that the fact that I wear a physical headcovering gets me closer to Heaven. I don't believe in works-based salvation. What I am saying is that the things that result from the practice - the lessons I have learned about myself, the feelings I get while wearing it, the sins that I feel I am trying to overcome by wearing it, those types of things are helping me to have a more fulfilling relationship with God (bringing me closer to Him/helping me get to know Him better).
So, no, the way in which we choose to worship doesn't earn us credit toward salvation, but the heart that we use to worship does please and honor God. My headcovering is a tool I use to help me have a clean heart. You may have other things you do that help you in your worship. Maybe you have certain prayers you like to pray, maybe there is a place you like to go to pray. There are probably things that you do because you like how they make you feel or the way in which they prepare your heart for worship.
And once again, you can believe what you want and pretend to know my heart. I don't think you are any less than me. I value you as a sister in Christ just as worthy of His Love and Grace as I am.
Also, I didn't ask you in what surface ways are you proclaiming the gospel of Christ. I asked specifically about actions.
Displaying the cross, wearing modest dress, and playing Christian music are all nice things but are they signs of a tree bearing fruit? Not really.
If you agree with the analogy of a tree representing the church, the things you describe are the flowers of the tree. I'm asking about the fruit of your labor, the actual work of your hands for the Lord. The physical, actionable ways in which you proclaim the Gospel. So far, everything you've mentioned could be interpreted as strictly for show.
I'm not saying you have to and I'm not saying you aren't a Christian or aren't a good Christian if you don't. I guess I'm just curious about your works and if you are equally as fascidious about the work of the church as you are about maintaining the appearance of glorifying God.
And I don't mean that to sound negative. I'm honestly curious.
sydney - I completely agree with you that you can use the Bible to back up just about any beliefs - good and bad. That's why I'm not really worried about what other people believe. That's why I talk about MY faith - the beliefs I have that have resulted from my study of the Word and the guidance of the Holy Spirit in my life. No one, not even my husband, is going to believe everything that I do in every way that I do because he hasn't shared all of my experiences.
As for the way I dress. My hair is to my waist because 1) my husband likes it that way and 2) I'm lazy. It's actually easier for me to twist my long hair up in a bun than do anything else. On top of that, I'm a dirty smelly hippy that doesn't even use shampoo, so my hair takes me as long as it takes to whip it up in a bun and throw a scarf over it each day.
I would venture to say that I spend as much time looking for clothes as the next woman that couldn't care about fashion does. I'm happy with what I have and if a need arises in my wardrobe I either try to make it myself, go to Goodwill to find it (because I'm a total tightwad) or shop online like anyone else. Dressing the way I do doesn't take me any more time than it did when I shopped at the mall and wore "normal" clothes.
But honestly, I'm probably like most other moms with three small children running around. I don't have the time to get ready most days. Some moms wear yoga pants, T-shirts and ponytails. I throw on a denim skirt, T-shirt, and scarf. Takes the same amount of time.
Also, I didn't ask you in what surface ways are you proclaiming the gospel of Christ. I asked specifically about actions.
Displaying the cross, wearing modest dress, and playing Christian music are all nice things but are they signs of a tree bearing fruit? Not really.
If you agree with the analogy of a tree representing the church, the things you describe are the flowers of the tree. I'm asking about the fruit of your labor, the actual work of your hands for the Lord. The physical, actionable ways in which you proclaim the Gospel. So far, everything you've mentioned could be interpreted as strictly for show.
I'm not saying you have to and I'm not saying you aren't a Christian or aren't a good Christian if you don't. I guess I'm just curious about your works and if you are equally as fascidious about the work of the church as you are about maintaining the appearance of glorifying God.
And I don't mean that to sound negative. I'm honestly curious.
And considering that every time she interjects with "christian advice" she gets nothing but a negative response from Christians and non-Christians alike, I am doubtful that the reason to keep coming back - especially at this point after so many chances - is truly from a place of trying to do good works. Just physiologically - the chances are low.