Post by sparkythelawyer on Sept 20, 2013 10:25:11 GMT -5
Sometimes I think CPS likes the opportunity to investigate a complaint that is not in the "bad" parts of town. Its like, their way of saying, "See? We investigate the 'good' families too!" I've seen it up here a few times in my law clerk days, and once with an acquaintance's kid. Stuff that would go straight up ignored in the worst parts of the city were getting treated like the Spanish freaking inquisition out in the burbs.
Once these things hit the system, they do not tend to go away easily. CPS has it now, and they are not going to drop it just because the cops told them they should. If I were her, I would at least speak with an attorney to figure out what steps she may need to do to protect herself and her children.
In her shoes, I would have called you and asked you to please pick up the scripts for me rather than leave the kids in the car. Do you live in a very rural area with limited pharmacy access? A 6pm closing time seems weird to me in the land of CVS/Walgreens.
Sometimes I think CPS likes the opportunity to investigate a complaint that is not in the "bad" parts of town. Its like, their way of saying, "See? We investigate the 'good' families too!" I've seen it up here a few times in my law clerk days, and once with an acquaintance's kid. Stuff that would go straight up ignored in the worst parts of the city were getting treated like the Spanish freaking inquisition out in the burbs.
Once these things hit the system, they do not tend to go away easily. CPS has it now, and they are not going to drop it just because the cops told them they should. If I were her, I would at least speak with an attorney to figure out what steps she may need to do to protect herself and her children.
In her shoes, I would have called you and asked you to please pick up the scripts for me rather than leave the kids in the car. Do you live in a very rural area with limited pharmacy access? A 6pm closing time seems weird to me in the land of CVS/Walgreens.
Hopefully this is all resolved soon for her!
The above is what her fear is, especially after seeing how my sisters were investigated and from our previous work. CPS didn't even interview her kids, so why the anger with oldest going to school?
I was at Girl Scouts with my daughter until 5:45 when she did call me. But it's a 20 minute drive to the one pharmacy and I have 3 kids too (our kids are all just months apart in ages), so I would have never made it to both either.
But we live in a very rural area. No CVS, Rite Aid, Walgreens. Just hospital pharmacies. Except for wal mart, which is another 20 minutes past the farther hospital.
I sympathize with the mom. I think it was fine for the nurse to call the police. Leaving kids under 8 unattended in the car here is illegal. But at that point, the nurse should have minded her own business and let the cop decide how to proceed. And obviously the nurse should not have lied.
CPS has very rigid rules they have to follow. I think his is just shit luck for the mom. I wish CPS was able to use their discretion a bit more. Hopefully they will close their case soon.
In my experience, CPS does NOT have very rigid rules as much as very rigid case workers. Who are entrusted/empowered to use their discretion ... and DON'T.
The stuff I've seen would make you want to scream. Some are amazing and effective. Not all. Not this CPS worker.
And the nurse was an asshole. Way to pretend you have their best interest at heart while you frighten them, lie about them, and inflict an entire bureaucracy to harass them.
Very creepy. But her child did as taught. Said no, didn't budge.
We can argue all day about leaving kids in cars. In the end, she did. And I don't think the ramifications she has experienced are on par with what happened.
There is a what if for everything. What if she DID bring them in, then when they drove to other pharmacy baby was so upset she cried hard enough to aspirate and stopped breathing in the middle of nowhere with no help? Is that better? Hey, she didn't leave her kids in the car! Or she brings them in, baby gets coughed on by someone with a different illness, catches it, and is hospitalized? She would be crucified for taking a sick baby around potentially other sick people. But she didn't leave her kids in the car! Or she leaves them in the car, they stay sleeping and she gets to the other pharmacy to get the meds, all is well?
You're willing to see what everyone did wrong except your friend. Yes, the nurse lady seems crazy and CPS sucks but all of that could have been avoided if the kids weren't left in the car to begin with.
I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing she did. So, no, I don't fault her. It's another matter of opinion, which I think what she did was what she thought was best for the kids.
This is not true for the nurse. I really think the nurse called CPS is because she was pissed the officer didn't just arrest my friend and hand her a medal or some nonsense. It was unnecessary for her to call. If it had been the police, fine.
She's here with the kiddos so I'm going to be radio silence for a while, but will respond when I can.
Thank you for the input thus far. I've been given some good advice and things to bring up to her. (Whether I agree or not, I think having a frank conversation about all said here would be good)
I can't say I wouldn't do the same thing she did. So, no, I don't fault her. It's another matter of opinion, which I think what she did was what she thought was best for the kids.
Here's the thing, though - it may be a matter of opinion (and trust me, I've done some things w/ DS that I know people here would never ever do w/ their child), but whatever your "opinion" may be - CLEARLY other people have different opinions and whatever choices you make, no matter how right you may think they are, you have to be willing to deal w/ the ramifications of other people not agreeing.
Yes, the nurse overreacted in a BIG way. But just for the fact that she was concerned when she saw 3 "unconscious" kids in a car - that's the ramification ANYONE who leaves their kid in the car may have to deal with.
It was taken to an extreme - I don't think anyone disagrees with that. But at it's root, the nurse was also doing what she thought was best for the kids.
She just left. CPS called and wanted to interview her again.
We had a very open conversation and I had her read this thread. (She had asked me to post, as she occasionally lurks here and wanted unbiased opinions, especially after all the kids in hot car posts this summer) She was a little shocked at the outrage over leaving the kids. She said that it wasn't hot (69 in her car according to the controls), she left the windows down enough for ventilation but not too far that someone could reach in, her DS knows how to work the locks so nobody would be trapped and she had left their "emergency" cell in the car that DS knows how to dial 911, her and her H with. She said its definitely not something she ever thought about being an issue, coming from a small town and sees it a lot (which we do). If it had taken longer than a few minutes she would have waited in the car.
She agreed that she should have waited to talk to someone at CPS until she was calmer.
She thinks she made the right decision putting DS on the bus. CPS came without notice, without speaking to the kids (and she said she asked about if they needed to interview them, but was told no) and she saw no reason to alter their schedule to do a home walk through that could wait 5 minutes. And if she had taken him to school she would have had to drag everyone into the school and expose sick baby to everything, then explain why and be humiliated.
She thanked the poster for recommending car delivery, said she asked but they couldn't due to staffing.
She also said the nurse was great for checking on the kids, but then went too far.
The police asked her about filing a grievance about the nurse, but she declined. She told them if they want to, fine, but she just wants to be done with this.
Her H is 100% standing behind her choice to leave the kids in the car. She said he's flabbergasted that it turned into this from what it was.
Surprisingly CPS has not wanted to talk to him at all, though. She asked, since he can be hard to get ahold of at work, and they declined.
Post by hopecounts on Sept 20, 2013 12:51:39 GMT -5
CPS wanting him there but not interviewing could be to see how he behaves spontaneously around mom and what he says unprompted. It's fairly standard particularly with younger kids so they can't be accused of coaching the kid to just observe them in the home with the parent being checked out to see how the kid acts and what they say in a normal setting and if there are any concerning statements or actions. she probably would've talked to him during the walk through casually watching for indications that there are other issues.
Post by JayhawkGirl on Sept 20, 2013 13:12:11 GMT -5
I'm glad you were able to have an honest conversation. Small town or not, it's just not safe to leave kids in the car alone. Ever. The crazies are crazier. They're lucky the nurse who claimed to be a friend wasn't some hopped up crazy person who decided to take the car or the kids. I'm also guessing the nurse is a mandated reporter and was obligated to call CPS.
We lost a young boy in our city several years ago when his mom left him in the car to run in and pick up a sub sandwich. Carjackers took the car, she raced out and tried to get to her son. He was dragged to his death. She, too, could see the car clearly from her location.
CPS wanting him there but not interviewing could be to see how he behaves spontaneously around mom and what he says unprompted. It's fairly standard particularly with younger kids so they can't be accused of coaching the kid to just observe them in the home with the parent being checked out to see how the kid acts and what they say in a normal setting and if there are any concerning statements or actions. she probably would've talked to him during the walk through casually watching for indications that there are other issues.
I'm glad you were able to have an honest conversation. Small town or not, it's just not safe to leave kids in the car alone. Ever. The crazies are crazier. They're lucky the nurse who claimed to be a friend wasn't some hopped up crazy person who decided to take the car or the kids. I'm also guessing the nurse is a mandated reporter and was obligated to call CPS.
We lost a young boy in our city several years ago when his mom left him in the car to run in and pick up a sub sandwich. Carjackers took the car, she raced out and tried to get to her son. He was dragged to his death. She, too, could see the car clearly from her location.
Friend called after CPS left again and she talked with the officer again. According to the officer, she was reprimanded for calling while the police were investigating. She is apparently a CNA, so not mandated in our county. And the hospital she is affiliated with called friend to apologize for the nurses actions and offered her a gift certificate to the pharmacy there. She declined, but said she thanked them for calling.
CPS is standing by their decision to do a full investigation and asked her for names and numbers of friends and family. They already spoke to the school and several of her neighbors. She asked what she should have done about the bus this morning and was told keep DS home and take him later. When she asked about if there would be problems with her having done that, since it would be a tardy and absences/tardies are reported to truancy officers then CPS after so many, and they told her maybe, so either way she was in a losing situation.
I'm glad you were able to have an honest conversation. Small town or not, it's just not safe to leave kids in the car alone. Ever. The crazies are crazier. They're lucky the nurse who claimed to be a friend wasn't some hopped up crazy person who decided to take the car or the kids. I'm also guessing the nurse is a mandated reporter and was obligated to call CPS.
We lost a young boy in our city several years ago when his mom left him in the car to run in and pick up a sub sandwich. Carjackers took the car, she raced out and tried to get to her son. He was dragged to his death. She, too, could see the car clearly from her location.
Friend called after CPS left again and she talked with the officer again. According to the officer, she was reprimanded for calling while the police were investigating. She is apparently a CNA, so not mandated in our county. And the hospital she is affiliated with called friend to apologize for the nurses actions and offered her a gift certificate to the pharmacy there. She declined, but said she thanked them for calling.
CPS is standing by their decision to do a full investigation and asked her for names and numbers of friends and family. They already spoke to the school and several of her neighbors. She asked what she should have done about the bus this morning and was told keep DS home and take him later. When she asked about if there would be problems with her having done that, since it would be a tardy and absences/tardies are reported to truancy officers then CPS after so many, and they told her maybe, so either way she was in a losing situation.
I would highly recommend she speak to an attorney in her area. CPS is circling its wagons, and she may need some help here.
I'm glad you were able to have an honest conversation. Small town or not, it's just not safe to leave kids in the car alone. Ever. The crazies are crazier. They're lucky the nurse who claimed to be a friend wasn't some hopped up crazy person who decided to take the car or the kids. I'm also guessing the nurse is a mandated reporter and was obligated to call CPS.
We lost a young boy in our city several years ago when his mom left him in the car to run in and pick up a sub sandwich. Carjackers took the car, she raced out and tried to get to her son. He was dragged to his death. She, too, could see the car clearly from her location.
Friend called after CPS left again and she talked with the officer again. According to the officer, she was reprimanded for calling while the police were investigating. She is apparently a CNA, so not mandated in our county. And the hospital she is affiliated with called friend to apologize for the nurses actions and offered her a gift certificate to the pharmacy there. She declined, but said she thanked them for calling.
CPS is standing by their decision to do a full investigation and asked her for names and numbers of friends and family. They already spoke to the school and several of her neighbors. She asked what she should have done about the bus this morning and was told keep DS home and take him later. When she asked about if there would be problems with her having done that, since it would be a tardy and absences/tardies are reported to truancy officers then CPS after so many, and they told her maybe, so either way she was in a losing situation.
Instead of being indignant about it all and she and her husband saying they still can't believe there's such a fuss over "just" leaving the kids in the car, MAYBE she should admit that she made a bad decision, that she understands why she shouldn't have done it, and will not do it again. Perhaps they're going on with a full investigation because she's acting like she did nothing wrong when and would make the same decision again. It blows my mind that someone being investigated would be anything less than completely cooperative when your family is at stake, even if she truly didnt see the problem with her decision at the time.
I have a friend who had a run in with CPS about 15 years ago and it took years to get it behind her. In her case, her family was driving home from vacation when her DH had an attack of colitis. She got the family home after driving for 10 hours through the night while her DH rested in the back of their van and the kids slept. Her DH had recurring bouts of colitis and he decided this one was bad enough to go to the hospital so my friend called their 19 year old summer sitter. Friend took husband to the hospital and they decided her DH needed surgery to remove 8 inches of his colon. She was sitting at his bedside in recovery when the police called her cell phone and asked her to come home ASAP. She said she had to pretend like nothing was wrong so as not to upset her DH yet come up with an excuse that was important enough to leave his bedside, all the while not freaking out because the police had said there was an emergency involving her children at home.
When she got home, she learned the the 5 yo son had the boy from across the street over to play. The babysitter told the boys that she had to take the 3 yo twins to their swim lesson so the older boys either had to go come with them and wait on the pool deck or go back over to the friends house to play until the lesson was over. The boys chose to go back across the street to the friends house.
Babysitter leaves with twins. Boys realize nobody is home at friends house (he was being watched by his older sister, I never found out where she had stepped out to) so they go back to my friends house and let themselves in through the garage with the door code. They play for a while and then get scared because they hear a noise. So being a smart kid, my friend's kid calls the cops. Cops arrive and find two 5 year olds in a dangerous situation (because of the "burglary" report) with no adult supervision. The cop was very apologetic because he understood the breakdown in communication but because he was called to the house due to an emergency situation and found kids, it was a mandatory call to CPS.
My friend had several visits with CPS and had to attend a parenting class. The incident case was closed as unfounded but it still followed her around for years. she was the cubscout den mom and they gave her a hard time because she had been the subject of an investigation. (She was required to disclose it on some forms because she was in a leadership position). Someone at church heard the story through the grapevine and missed several key details. That person caused a huge uproar because my friend was volunteering in the child are area. It was humiliating for my friend and a PITA.
Friend called after CPS left again and she talked with the officer again. According to the officer, she was reprimanded for calling while the police were investigating. She is apparently a CNA, so not mandated in our county. And the hospital she is affiliated with called friend to apologize for the nurses actions and offered her a gift certificate to the pharmacy there. She declined, but said she thanked them for calling.
CPS is standing by their decision to do a full investigation and asked her for names and numbers of friends and family. They already spoke to the school and several of her neighbors. She asked what she should have done about the bus this morning and was told keep DS home and take him later. When she asked about if there would be problems with her having done that, since it would be a tardy and absences/tardies are reported to truancy officers then CPS after so many, and they told her maybe, so either way she was in a losing situation.
Instead of being indignant about it all and she and her husband saying they still can't believe there's such a fuss over "just" leaving the kids in the car, MAYBE she should admit that she made a bad decision, that she understands why she shouldn't have done it, and will not do it again. Perhaps they're going on with a full investigation because she's acting like she did nothing wrong when and would make the same decision again. It blows my mind that someone being investigated would be anything less than completely cooperative when your family is at stake, even if she truly didnt see the problem with her decision at the time.
This!!!!!
Please have your friend understand she made the wrong decision. Until she understands SHE made the first mistake, CPS might not back down.
And have her read the story above about the kid dying from being left in the car. Its not the temperature that is the only concern. You never know who will walk by and take your car or kids. If she didn't notice the lady knocking on the window, she wouldn't have notice someone breaking the window and taking her kids.
Of course the nurse acted crazy, but your friend needs to take responsibility, quick!!!!
Sorry for no replies, I could not log in for some reason (thanks, ProBoards!). Anyway. Friend did apologize for leaving kids, take absolute blame, admitted it was an err in judgement, and promised never to do it again to CPS. She said they had her put it in writing the first time they came out.
But they are currently interviewing former coworkers (myself included), have already talked to her neighbors and friends. They did not speak to her husband.
They have come to her house several times (can't remember exact number). They found a laundry list of "problems" including her grass is higher than 4", posing a fall hazard (it had been cut, per her, the prior weekend, but we had several days of rain and she really can't go mow the lawn with a sick baby). Her laundry baskets upstairs are a fall hazard (they are in an alcove out of walking paths). Her railing is 23.5" from top of stair and should be 23" on her stairs going in house. She has small appliances in a cupboard in the kitchen that are a hazard, but CPS wouldn't state why (think toaster, blender, etc). The dog hair on her floor is a choking hazard to the kids (she has 2 dogs and had not vacuumed before the visit, but said she had the day prior). The kids had toys on the floor of their room, posing a trip and fall risk. She didn't have a shower curtain/glass surround on her tub, but she has no shower. Her basement has too many unsafe items (her husbands tools, etc, but her kids aren't allowed there and she has safety knobs so they can't open the door).
Absolutely ridiculous things, and the investigator refused to give her the list, telling her she should have been taking notes (while holding a crying/sick baby). She has a month to fix everything, which is impossible without their list. Never had her sign anything but the above statement.
I think they are making it impossible for her to just close this case, move on and be more mindful in the future.
I feel like there is more to this. Under normal circs, once she admitted blame and there were no other glaring issues in the home, they would have closed the case and moved on.
ETA: I wanted to post my gut reaction before reading the other responses.
Your friend made a bad choice and needs to acknowledge that. I still fault the nurse however, because she's a lying liar who lies and therefore should have zero credibility as far as the incident.goes.
It sounds like it's time for your friend to lawyer up.
Any chance the CPS worker and the nurse are friends? Your friend needs a lawyer asap. She can make payments or sell something, but she needs to do whatever it takes to keep her children.
Post by hisno1girl on Sept 22, 2013 12:37:13 GMT -5
I think that nurse is a lunatic.
I do not judge the mother one bit, even for leaving her children in the car because I don't have a problem with what she did. I left my daughter in the car while I was doing stuff like paying for gas or running in a store to pick up something when I knew I would be gone less than a few minutes.
If I saw unattended children in a car I might wait around for a few minutes, especially in the summer, but I certainly wouldn't call the police unless I knew that the child was in distress. Under no circumstances would I call CPS. I'd leave that for the police to handle.
Sometimes I think CPS likes the opportunity to investigate a complaint that is not in the "bad" parts of town. Its like, their way of saying, "See? We investigate the 'good' families too!" I've seen it up here a few times in my law clerk days, and once with an acquaintance's kid. Stuff that would go straight up ignored in the worst parts of the city were getting treated like the Spanish freaking inquisition out in the burbs.
This can definitely go the other way though. From personal experience, I lived in an affluent area and CPS investigated our family twice for child abuse. I definitely should have been removed from my home, but my CPS worker thought my case was a waste of time because we were living in a high SES (socioeconomic status) and called me an entitled spoiled brat even though there was clearly abuse happening.
Post by pixelpassion on Sept 22, 2013 12:56:56 GMT -5
The behavior of the CPS worker aside, if the worst thing that happens to you is that someone is looking out for/concerned for the well-being of your child, then that's not too bad.
The nurse is most likely a mandated reporter and I totally understand her decision to call the police and CPS. But I think it was wrong of her to lie to the police. Also, even if the police give CPS a green light to close the case, CPS still needs to do an initial investigation anyway.
Post by orangeblossom on Sept 22, 2013 12:57:32 GMT -5
I think the nurse was wrong.
I think I would never say never as to the mother leaving her child in the car. I don't have kids, but in this particular situation, I could see saying let me just run in really quickly, so as not to wake my sick sleeping baby.
Yes, she could have prevented it by not doing it in the first place, but this is one of those scenarios where people have to be careful when making fraudulent CPS calls (not just this scenario, but we've all heard of "revenge or I'm gon get you " CPS calls. It can quickly make your normal, harried, everyday family the target of ridiculous CPS rules like toasters being out of place, and dog hair on the floor. Least of all kids who may be wrongly taken from a home where nothing is occurring, and placed into dangerous situations where something could occur.
I think the nurse checking on welfare is commendable. Perhaps even calling the police to ensure that they have a record of this is fine, maybe so if it happens again they know? Or see if this is a repetitive. The rest? BS. Calling CPS when the police are occupied, without confirming with them? BS. As a CNA she is not a mandated reporter, she confirmed with one of our former coworkers. CPS picking apart her home as they did, BS. She is being held at a standard much higher than normal families. The complaints are the most ridiculous things, but they found no actual hazards to drag her down with. She is being given "violations" on par with a daycare. Not a home.
She plans on speaking with her family lawyer on Monday. She has, other than putting her son on the bus, been open, honest and apologetic per herself. They want her home to meet? She goes. They want friends/family/coworkers names? She gave them. They show up on Saturday afternoon to follow up on how she is fixing the problems? (Mind you, less than 24 hours later with no list being given to her, other than what she remembers from the previous day being said) She showed them around. They want to show up to look around on a Sunday as she is leaving with her older kids to see a movie? She stayed and we went to a different movie. They ask to inspect her car for hazards? She opens it and lets them.
I'm also wondering if the nurse knows someone at CPS, because it really seems like they are going overboard.
Post by MrsAxilla on Sept 22, 2013 15:45:33 GMT -5
This whole situation is horrifying and ridiculous. I'm glad your friend is going to talk to a lawyer. I have no idea what her rights might be, but the way CPS is acting doesn't sound right to me. ALL of this, just for leaving your kids for less than four minutes on a mild day? Didn't your friend call and yell at them? Maybe that has something to do with it.