Today I was told "We only hire Christians"

[Deleted]

You may remember I posted a while back that DD's current daycare, like most in this area, uses the ABEKA curriculum.

pandce.proboards.com/thread/182473/teachers-moms-preschoolers-talk-abeka

For now it's fine because she's only two, and we really like the facility otherwise, so there's no. However, sometime in a year or so we'd like to get her into a place with a curriculum that's preferably secular, or at least less extreme than ABEKA.

I thought I had that option when I heard through a local grapevine that a new daycare (opened March 2013) is using a secular curriculum and has a long wait list. DH and I had the opportunity to go in today and tour the place. We were not pleased.

The dude who was there to tour us, and to whom I spoke on the phone, called himself "the owner" - ONLY after I asked him to identify his position and never gave me his last name. The administrator wasn't there. This dude was one of the most unprofessional douchebags I have ever encountered - chewing gum with his mouth open, chewing gum while talking and talking a mile a minute. Reports half-full capacity after telling me on the phone there's a 30-45 day wait.

During his lengthy spiels that tried not to allow two-way dialogue, he mostly ignored child care discussion and yammered about procedures, notably focused on how you can pay tuition on the security keypad with a card and that you'll be asked to leave and not come back if you breach security policy enough times. He talked over us constantly. Also, it was glaringly obvious this dude had zero early childhood education experience.

As I tried to steer the conversation back to the curriculum since that was the point of us being there (he never asked anything about A's child care history or what we were looking for), I asked about the GELS (Georgia Early Learning Standards Curriculum) that is discussed on their website.

Owner: GELS is not a curriculum. They're just standards. Also, it's GELDS, not GELS. (pulls out pamphlet)
Me: Oh. The website said GELS.
Owner: *shrug*
Me: Anyway, it says that you use GELS for ages 1-3 and and KidCrafters for ages 3-5. Can you tell me how they differ?
Owner: Again, GELDS is not a curriculum and we use KidCrafters for all ages.
Me: Oh, sorry. I went over your website thoroughly and that was what it says, so I didn't know.
Owner: Thank you for bringing it to my attention.
Me: (to myself) Ummm, you're the owner, you should know WTF is on your own business' website.

So onto the the subject line of my post: my husband, to whom the secular thing is an even bigger deal than it is to me, asks him about the religious aspect of the curriculum.

H: Now, the curriculum doesn't incorporate religion, right?
Owner: We are a Christian organization.
H: Is the curriculum religious?
Owner: Well, no, we won't force it on the kids or anything, but I live by the principles of Christianity and I make sure all my staff does too. We only have Christians here.
H and me: 

I should report this, should I not? I know this is illegal. I will welcome any direction WRT this.

Obviously this idiot assumed we were Christians and thought this would be a selling point. I of course was already put off by his unprofessionalism, his overbearing behavior and his misdirection of priorties. While he continues to yammer I pull up the following webpage, then show it to him. He looks at it, then continues to argue with me that it's incorrect - yeah OK, I didn't write this, you idiot.

[kme]

So they never actually said they don't hire Christians, just none work there.

Well by-golly, you wouldn't expect a Hindu to be working a Chick-fil-a would you?


Not saying they wouldn't hire but I'm sure non-Christians don't apply because it's a Christian organization.

[EllieArroway]

Sept 25, 2013 19:48:21 GMT -5 kme said:

So they never actually said they don't hire Christians, just none work there.

Well by-golly, you wouldn't expect a Hindu to be working a Chick-fil-a would you?


Not saying they wouldn't hire but I'm sure non-Christians don't apply because it's a Christian organization.

I know several non-Christians who work or worked for Chik-fil-a.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2013 19:48:21 GMT -5 kme said:

So they never actually said they don't hire Christians, just none work there.

Well by-golly, you wouldn't expect a Hindu to be working a Chick-fil-a would you?


Not saying they wouldn't hire but I'm sure non-Christians don't apply because it's a Christian organization.

Unlike CFA, this place does not advertise as a Christian organization.

Also, can CFA legally say they would make sure they don't have Hindus working there? I'm pretty sure they can't.

[frlcb]

GELS is now called GELDS (and just started in 2013 so maybe they just need to update the website), and I don't think is actually a curriculum but rather the standards provided that they can then choose the curriculum with. And KidCrafters doesn't start until 18 months it appears, so I don't know how they could use it for all ages.

The Christian thing is just weird.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2013 19:48:21 GMT -5 kme said:

So they never actually said they don't hire Christians, just none work there.

Well by-golly, you wouldn't expect a Hindu to be working a Chick-fil-a would you?


Not saying they wouldn't hire but I'm sure non-Christians don't apply because it's a Christian organization.

I wrf are you talking about.


There are tons of nonchrisians at many Christian Orgs, like catholic universities for example. Or even catholic charities.

[frlcb]

And I know non-Christians who work at the CFA headquarters, so they don't not hire Christians.

[frlcb]

Sept 25, 2013 19:56:21 GMT -5 @letshike said:

This is exactly why I'm scared to have my kid go to school in Georgia, especially the preschools here.

I don't know where you are in Georgia but there are plenty of non-christian based preschools in Atlanta. My daughter goes to one.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2013 19:55:24 GMT -5 frlcb said:

GELS is now called GELDS (and just started in 2013 so maybe they just need to update the website), and I don't think is actually a curriculum but rather the standards provided that they can then choose the curriculum with. And KidCrafters doesn't start until 18 months it appears, so I don't know how they could use it for all ages.

The Christian thing is just weird.

Yeah, maybe. 

It's not about who's right and who's wrong - what bothers me is that the OWNER is apparently unconcerned with the accuracy of his website content. For a business that's SIX MONTHS OLD. That's just another red flag to me.

[frlcb]

Sept 25, 2013 19:58:57 GMT -5 sunmoonstars said:

Sept 25, 2013 19:55:24 GMT -5 frlcb said:

GELS is now called GELDS (and just started in 2013 so maybe they just need to update the website), and I don't think is actually a curriculum but rather the standards provided that they can then choose the curriculum with. And KidCrafters doesn't start until 18 months it appears, so I don't know how they could use it for all ages.

The Christian thing is just weird.

Yeah, maybe. 

It's not about who's right and who's wrong - what bothers me is that the OWNER is apparently unconcerned with the accuracy of his website content. For a business that's SIX MONTHS OLD. That's just another red flag to me.

I don't disagree.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2013 19:58:42 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Sept 25, 2013 19:56:21 GMT -5 @letshike said:

This is exactly why I'm scared to have my kid go to school in Georgia, especially the preschools here.

I don't know where you are in Georgia but there are plenty of non-christian based preschools in Atlanta. My daughter goes to one.

I'm not in Atlanta, and unfortunately we don't have Atlanta options.

[frlcb]

Sept 25, 2013 20:00:09 GMT -5 @letshike said:

Sept 25, 2013 19:58:42 GMT -5 frlcb said:

I don't know where you are in Georgia but there are plenty of non-christian based preschools in Atlanta. My daughter goes to one.

We are in a tiny town and most are religion based. I'm sure I will find one but the story she posted is a lot like the mentality in our small town.

I would look for a preschool that follows a Reggio/Montessori method, those won't be religious. If there is one

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2013 20:01:41 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Sept 25, 2013 20:00:09 GMT -5 @letshike said:

We are in a tiny town and most are religion based. I'm sure I will find one but the story she posted is a lot like the mentality in our small town.

I would look for a preschool that follows a Reggio/Montessori method, those won't be religious. If there is one

There is, and I'm looking at it. It's expensive, but not yet ruled out.

[Deleted]

Edited to remove the link so the post is not searchable.

Now, does anyone have advice on whether or not I should report his comment?

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2013 20:06:51 GMT -5 @letshike said:

I guess I think it's super weird for him to say the thing about Christians. But then again, I'm also not surprised. I would absolutely give him the side eye and I wouldn't enroll my child there.

There's NFW I'm enrolling my child there, for several reasons.

I'm posting only because I'm disturbed that he said he will only have Christians working there. Had he not said that, this thread wouldn't exist.

Edit: It's worse than weird. It's illegal.

[iammalcolmx]

I Love CFA's Diet Lemonade, that's all I have to add.

[kme]

Sept 25, 2013 19:54:55 GMT -5 sunmoonstars said:

Sept 25, 2013 19:48:21 GMT -5 kme said:

So they never actually said they don't hire Christians, just none work there.

Well by-golly, you wouldn't expect a Hindu to be working a Chick-fil-a would you?


Not saying they wouldn't hire but I'm sure non-Christians don't apply because it's a Christian organization.

Unlike CFA, this place does not advertise as a Christian organization.

Also, can CFA legally say they would make sure they don't have Hindus working there? I'm pretty sure they can't.

They can't hire/not hire based upon religion. It might have nothing to do with them hiring only Christians, but maybe only Christians apply. Or maybe it's family/friend run, I don't know.

I was just trying to say it is not uncommon to find people of certain faiths/beliefs to be working in establishments based on those faiths/beliefs. I don't know why a Christian organization only having Christian workers is shocking. That's it.

[Michelle]

To answer your question, if they have 15 employees or more they are subject to Title VII of the CRA that prohibits religious discrimination in hiring. The exception is if it is a BFOQ, which is pretty limiting. For example, you do have to be Catholic to be a priest. Bona Fide Occupational Qualification. It is pretty hard to explain how being a particular religion at a daycare outside of a church, temple, etc is a bfoq.

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2013 20:15:19 GMT -5 kme said:

Sept 25, 2013 19:54:55 GMT -5 sunmoonstars said:

Unlike CFA, this place does not advertise as a Christian organization.

Also, can CFA legally say they would make sure they don't have Hindus working there? I'm pretty sure they can't.

They can't hire/not hire based upon religion.

I was just trying to say it is not uncommon to find people of certain faiths/beliefs to be working in establishments based on those faiths/beliefs. I don't know why a Christian organization only having Christian workers is shocking. That's it.

Because it's been illegal since 1964. 

I'm not getting into a lengthy effort to educate you on this, but I will say I used to work for a Catholic hospital and even they as an openly religious organization had to comply with this law linked below.

www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/publications/fs-religion.cfm

[sushi]

Well, are they a Christian organization? If so, they can discriminate. There are Christian organizations that use secular curriculum.

I get being frustrated at the inaccuracy of the website, but I don't get the frustration, unless it was for delivery, in him setting you straight.

[sushi]

Sept 25, 2013 20:15:22 GMT -5 Michelle said:

To answer your question, if they have 15 employees or more they are subject to Title VII of the CRA that prohibits religious discrimination in hiring. The exception is if it is a BFOQ, which is pretty limiting. For example, you do have to be Catholic to be a priest. Bona Fide Occupational Qualification. It is pretty hard to explain how being a particular religion at a daycare outside of a church, temple, etc is a bfoq.

Except SCOTUS has ruled that teachers at religious orgs can qualify.

I think it's shitty of them to not be upfront, but they may be a religious school with a religious mission. They use a secular curriculum, but do they also teach Christianity? Such as praying before meals, Jesus coloring books, Christmas parties...

[Michelle]

Sept 25, 2013 20:27:14 GMT -5 sushi said:

Sept 25, 2013 20:15:22 GMT -5 Michelle said:

To answer your question, if they have 15 employees or more they are subject to Title VII of the CRA that prohibits religious discrimination in hiring. The exception is if it is a BFOQ, which is pretty limiting. For example, you do have to be Catholic to be a priest. Bona Fide Occupational Qualification. It is pretty hard to explain how being a particular religion at a daycare outside of a church, temple, etc is a bfoq.

Except SCOTUS has ruled that teachers at religious orgs can qualify.

I think it's shitty of them to not be upfront, but they may be a religious school with a religious mission. They use a secular curriculum, but do they also teach Christianity? Such as praying before meals, Jesus coloring books, Christmas parties...

True, IF they are teaching religion.  I thought SMS said it was a secular daycare?

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2013 20:21:18 GMT -5 sushi said:

Well, are they a Christian organization? If so, they can discriminate. There are Christian organizations that use secular curriculum.

I get being frustrated at the inaccuracy of the website, but I don't get the frustration, unless it was for delivery, in him setting you straight.

No, they're not affiliated with any church or religious denomination. Even if they were, I don't see how it's relevant because religious hospitals aren't allowed to discriminate.

WRT to your last sentence -  yes, it was for delivery. I mentioned in my OP that he was talking rapidly and over us constantly. He got pissy and defensive when I told him what I'd read - on his own business' website - and acted as though I should have somehow known before I got there that the website was wrong and what the correct info was. If that was possible, then WTF is the point of having a website? 

[Deleted]

Sept 25, 2013 20:31:06 GMT -5 Michelle said:

Sept 25, 2013 20:27:14 GMT -5 sushi said:

Except SCOTUS has ruled that teachers at religious orgs can qualify.

I think it's shitty of them to not be upfront, but they may be a religious school with a religious mission. They use a secular curriculum, but do they also teach Christianity? Such as praying before meals, Jesus coloring books, Christmas parties...

True, IF they are teaching religion.  I thought SMS said it was a secular daycare?

Correct, it's secular. 

Ironic, isn't it?

[mominatrix]

Georgia Commission on Equal Opportunity
404-456-1736
800-473-OPEN

You might want to email them. The manager of their Employment Division might be a good place to start
Abdul Wali Khadeem
[e-mail]


ETA: even if they have fewer than 15 employees, they're probably covered under state law that's analogous to Title VII. Usually the threshold for those is 6 employees.

And don't let them give you a load of crap about not being an employee/applicant and therefore not having standing. Don't let them go there. Tell them to send a tester over there to hear it for themselves.

[mouse]

I don't see a problem reporting it, if they're exempt from the law whatever agency handling it will figure that out quickly.

I have a catholic friend who applied for a daycare in a church and only had to sign something saying she wouldn't say it do anything against their teachings while at school.

Also, don't rule out daycare a inside churches, ours is completely secular and just rents the space. Is there a local secular/skeptics group that might know non-religious schools?

[mominatrix]

Sept 25, 2013 20:21:18 GMT -5 sushi said:

Well, are they a Christian organization? If so, they can discriminate. There are Christian organizations that use secular curriculum.

I get being frustrated at the inaccuracy of the website, but I don't get the frustration, unless it was for delivery, in him setting you straight.

they can only do so in VERY limited circumstances.


Like, religion teachers at religious schools may have to be 'of' the religion... but English teachers, Math teachers, not so much.

[Michelle]

Sept 25, 2013 20:30:57 GMT -5 @mx said:

The courts have ruled pretty leniently to allow Christian organizations to discriminate. See Spencer vs. WorldVision Inc.

I think it's a bunch of bullshit, but that ruling is why I will never apply for a job at a religious nonprofit even if I am being heavily recruited.

I will have to read up on that.
BUT regarding the latter, I have worked for a hospital that is non profit with a christian denomination name that not only hires without regard to religious belief but also has a muslim prayer room, has chaplains of all the major faiths, and has a meditation room. But it does have big Jesus statues in the lobbies of each hospital and major meetings start with a nondenominational prayer.

eta, so you would be welcome there, no matter your religion or lack thereof.

[Michelle]

Sept 25, 2013 20:42:20 GMT -5 @mx said:

Sept 25, 2013 20:36:53 GMT -5 Michelle said:

I will have to read up on that.

Sept 25, 2013 20:42:20 GMT -5 @mx said:

k so your hospital doesn't discriminate. That's nice. Lots of religious nonprofits do, and the ruling in Spencer v Worldvision gives them pretty ample cover to continue in my not-a-lawyer opinion. 

I mean...90% of Worldvision's work has not a thing to do with religion. For years they were the biggest employer in Somalia where I can guarantee they didn't have a single Christian employee. It was ok for THOSE people to not be Christian, but not an admin assistant in the US whose highest level of programmatic responsibility was scheduling conference calls. So many of Worldvision's activities are explicitly and broadly secular and they receive massive federal grants for their work. Yet they are allowed to discriminate on the basis of religion. That's a pretty ugly precedent if you ask me. 

Ok so see my sentence above about needing to read that case before i weigh in. In the meantime momi and i seem to be on the same page and she IS a lawyer so i will let her take over.

As i mentioned, I only reference the hospital i have worked for as an example of a place you could consider in spite of it heing a religious nonprofit. Not as an anecdote to prove case precedent.

[mominatrix]

One thing you always need to remember in the discrimination context is that there are state laws as well as Title VII. They make the jurisdictional issues very different...

smaller employer numbers, different statutes of limitations...

AND different interpretations of law.

... and because it's interpretations of STATE law, SCOTUS can't overturn interpretations of the states' highest courts.

Makes for a lot of fun.


NOW... that's not to say that the Georgia organization is all progressive. I don't know them, in person or by reputation, and agencies such as these are VERY different from each other.

The point I'm making is this: in this field, one SCOTUS case doesn't necessarily rule the whole roost.