Honestly it's fucking shameful that we "know nothing about the topic" because this isn't the first big blowup we've had about this exact same issue. We've had several other threads throughout the years large and small about this. So, do people not read those threads at all? No one gets a spark to go look for more information? To want to chime in to learn more? Because I, personally, for damn sure have learned a lot throughout the years.
Yes over the years we have had discussions but they quickly become inflamed and I think it basically chills further discussion that is much needed.
It is not as easy as posting an article and saying let's discuss. Post the wrong article with a author that has a bias that someone is unfamiliar with, and the post immediately takes a turn. Further how do we talk about both sides of the conflict without intent being questioned.
Honestly it's fucking shameful that we "know nothing about the topic" because this isn't the first big blowup we've had about this exact same issue. We've had several other threads throughout the years large and small about this. So, do people not read those threads at all? No one gets a spark to go look for more information? To want to chime in to learn more? Because I, personally, for damn sure have learned a lot throughout the years.
I'll restate. I'm actually really very interested in the topic, brought it up several times, usually respond when it comes up, gave my opinion in the last Gal Gadot thread, and also once started a thread saying we should have a permanent thread for resources on the conflict (in the last 6 mos or so, but I haven't gone back to see when for sure). I never know if what I'm reading is correct or not, or if my sources are biased.
But I was wary of getting involved in this particular conversation because I was confused about a lot of it and I wasn't sure if I tried to get clarity and worded the question wrong, that it wouldn't go left.
But I agree, we should all have an interest and be educated on the conflict.
Post by goldengirlz on Jun 26, 2017 23:38:42 GMT -5
I need to say something. I think we need to be careful when we say we can't have a reasonable discussion about Israel without things going haywire because people are too sensitive.
Even though fryjack2 was outnumbered and people said inflammatory things, I didn't see her lose her temper. So I know we're not talking about her. And I didn't see the Jewish posters lose their tempers until there was CLEAR anti-Semitism. Not microagressions. Not the Becky derailment. But blatant, blatant anti-Semitism.
This was not about "oh, whoops, I didn't realize I posted something biased and now I'm getting flamed." This was not about someone asking uncomfortable questions (like why people are sensitive about the term apartheid.) This was about hurtful statements that were made willfully and intentionally.
I think we need to be careful when saying that we can't have this discussion because people get too "inflamed" or "emotional" and try to think about who we're accusing of undue anger or emotion and what was said to provoke that anger or emotion. Because the takeaway from that whole discussion should NOT be, we can't talk about Israel on the board because the Jews can't be reasonable. And I hope that's not what I'm reading here.
I need to say something. I think we need to be careful when we say we can't have a reasonable discussion about Israel without things going haywire because people are too sensitive.
Even though fryjack2 was outnumbered and people said inflammatory things, I didn't see her lose her temper. So I know we're not talking about her. And I didn't see the Jewish posters lose their tempers until there was CLEAR anti-Semitism. Not microagressions. Not the Becky derailment. But blatant, blatant anti-Semitism.
This was not about "oh, whoops, I didn't realize I posted something biased and now I'm getting flamed." This was not about someone asking uncomfortable questions (like why people are sensitive about the term apartheid.) This was about hurtful statements that were made willfully and intentionally.
I think we need to be careful when saying that we can't have this discussion because people get too "inflamed" or "emotional" and try to think about who we're accusing of undue anger or emotion and what was said to provoke that anger or emotion. Because the takeaway from that whole discussion should NOT be, we can't talk about Israel on the board because the Jews can't be reasonable. And I hope that's not what I'm reading here.
I said the discussions become inflamed, not people. Posters are aware of the sensitivity and I think people don't want to inadvertently hurt someone. I did not say anything in your last paragraph. So no, that is not what you are reading.
This is why I say it might be helpful to know some ground rules. I don't think the normal course discussions work here. People offer up articles throughout the thread to add a perspective (not their own) but for a discussion, and that has not always gone well. Sometimes the result is it is not our job to educate you, and sometimes the response is every single article you posted is anti-semitic. Both of those might be true, both of those things happened in the larger thread over the weekend within the first two pages. So what should someone not well-versed on the issue do next? It is an honest question. And it has nothing to do with me accusing Jewish or Palestinian posters of being "emotional".
It might be further evidence of the anti-semitism at play in the news coverage, but in our discussions I am struggling to remember a time where there was an article that was posted having an opposing view of Israel's practices that were not challenged for being anti-Semitic or the author / or organization that put out the article as anti-Semitic. If I post something, it has some subtle bias I did not know about, I would feel embarrassed and slightly gun-shy about about stepping in it. Not because Jewish posters are unreasonable but because I don't want to insult someone. So what do we do in the meantime as we are still developing judgment on how to navigate reading material? How do we ask follow-up questions for clarity and understanding, and not unintentionally marginalize the views or experiences of people?
You have a lot of people saying they want to know more and don't know the best way to participate. I think we as a board definitely need to do better but I think it would be helpful to let us know how to do that.
We know to stay away from articles that use apartheid and genocide. What else?
Post by barcelonagirl on Jun 27, 2017 6:57:54 GMT -5
I just googled Jewish Voices for Peace and then looked at the ADL link under. Wholly contradiction! (And I didn't even know the group existed and I thought the ADL was the be all end all lol)
If Jewish people can't decide if Jewish people are anti-Semitic, I'm going to shut my trap!
I just googled Jewish Voices for Peace and then looked at the ADL link under. Wholly contradiction! (And I didn't even know the group existed and I thought the ADL was the be all end all lol)
If Jewish people can't decide if Jewish people are anti-Semitic, I'm going to shut my trap!
You are still a fucking bigot no matter how you try to act now that you aren't drunk. You were anti-Semitic for over 24 hours, so that is one hell of a binge, btw.
Also, you know how you can say the N word and I can't? Jews can say inflammatory things to and about each other and random people whose fathers and college professors taught them to hate Jews can't.
What you said and how you acted is unforgivable.
Yo please point out where I said anything antisemetic in the above. I don't think the n word is a fair comparison but you've made up your mind.
I just googled Jewish Voices for Peace and then looked at the ADL link under. Wholly contradiction! (And I didn't even know the group existed and I thought the ADL was the be all end all lol)
If Jewish people can't decide if Jewish people are anti-Semitic, I'm going to shut my trap!
Every community has dissenting voices and different opinions. Of COURSE there are contradictions. There are in the Catholic faith, the Muslim faith, and with every ethnic/racial group I'm aware of. You are acting like this is some radical epiphany.
You are still a fucking bigot no matter how you try to act now that you aren't drunk. You were anti-Semitic for over 24 hours, so that is one hell of a binge, btw.
Also, you know how you can say the N word and I can't? Jews can say inflammatory things to and about each other and random people whose fathers and college professors taught them to hate Jews can't.
What you said and how you acted is unforgivable.
Yo please point out where I said anything antisemetic in the above. I don't think the n word is a fair comparison but you've made up your mind.
You admitted your Becky and Rivka comments were meant to hurt the Jewish posters. That is anti-Semitic for just one example
You are still a fucking bigot no matter how you try to act now that you aren't drunk. You were anti-Semitic for over 24 hours, so that is one hell of a binge, btw.
Also, you know how you can say the N word and I can't? Jews can say inflammatory things to and about each other and random people whose fathers and college professors taught them to hate Jews can't.
What you said and how you acted is unforgivable.
Yo please point out where I said anything antisemetic in the above. I don't think the n word is a fair comparison but you've made up your mind.
barcelonagirl, I feel like you are just trolling us and being willfully obtuse. The Jewish posters (myself included) don't want to hear this shit anymore.
Honestly it's fucking shameful that we "know nothing about the topic" because this isn't the first big blowup we've had about this exact same issue. We've had several other threads throughout the years large and small about this. So, do people not read those threads at all? No one gets a spark to go look for more information? To want to chime in to learn more? Because I, personally, for damn sure have learned a lot throughout the years.
I think this has been addressed, but it feels that it is almost impossible to find unbiased information on the topic. I have tried. I have asked questions. I think the issues in the past threads have been mostly squashed where I am concerned, but none of my questions were about being anti-Semitic or having sides. You can't have a side when you know nothing. But every question was seen as an attack on the Jewish posters. That is hard to keep coming back to and when you read something and have questions I don't feel like this is the place to ask for clarification. Honestly, I still don't feel that this is a place for questions on this topic and I don't have people in my personal life to get clarification from.
Honestly it's fucking shameful that we "know nothing about the topic" because this isn't the first big blowup we've had about this exact same issue. We've had several other threads throughout the years large and small about this. So, do people not read those threads at all? No one gets a spark to go look for more information? To want to chime in to learn more? Because I, personally, for damn sure have learned a lot throughout the years.
And, again, the issue is more why didn't as many climb all over barcelona (and she is the one that sticks way the hell out) for showing her ass. To me, I think this was an area where someone on our board quadruple down and compared to other call outs (rightfully so ones), this was was, and still is, off, for lack of a better word. eta: Now that this is known, I will have my eye out and will come to the aid of any in this thread who were pained by her bullshit responses.
As for the topic---I am in need of more information of where we are today and clarifying things I read on ADL and what are some sites for the Palestinian side that are good ones. That is where I am learning.
I don't think this is fair. 1 her tirade mostly happened over the weekend when volume is lower. I was sick as shit Sunday, but when I did come back I immediately called her out as did others.
You need to fucking stop doing this bullshit on this board. Your ass has been told too many times that it is not okay but you keep going. Stop. We all see you.
I just googled Jewish Voices for Peace and then looked at the ADL link under. Wholly contradiction! (And I didn't even know the group existed and I thought the ADL was the be all end all lol)
If Jewish people can't decide if Jewish people are anti-Semitic, I'm going to shut my trap!
Every community has dissenting voices and different opinions. Of COURSE there are contradictions. There are in the Catholic faith, the Muslim faith, and with every ethnic/racial group I'm aware of. You are acting like this is some radical mepiphany.
No I'm illustrating how we are never going to be able to have a conversation about Israel without someone being called and anti-semite. I looked for info and immediately found conflicting views. I posted the result that I was clearly unable to provide anything of value to the discussion but maybe it's this:
It might be further evidence of the anti-semitism at play in the news coverage, but in our discussions I am struggling to remember a time where there was an article that was posted having an opposing view of Israel's practices that were not challenged for being anti-Semitic or the author / or organization that put out the article as anti-Semitic.
Honestly it's fucking shameful that we "know nothing about the topic" because this isn't the first big blowup we've had about this exact same issue. We've had several other threads throughout the years large and small about this. So, do people not read those threads at all? No one gets a spark to go look for more information? To want to chime in to learn more? Because I, personally, for damn sure have learned a lot throughout the years.
I think this has been addressed, but it feels that it is almost impossible to find unbiased information on the topic. I have tried. I have asked questions. I think the issues in the past threads have been mostly squashed where I am concerned, but none of my questions were about being anti-Semitic or having sides. You can't have a side when you know nothing. But every question was seen as an attack on the Jewish posters. That is hard to keep coming back to and when you read something and have questions I don't feel like this is the place to ask for clarification. Honestly, I still don't feel that this is a place for questions on this topic and I don't have people in my personal life to get clarification from.
And, again, the issue is more why didn't as many climb all over barcelona (and she is the one that sticks way the hell out) for showing her ass. To me, I think this was an area where someone on our board quadruple down and compared to other call outs (rightfully so ones), this was was, and still is, off, for lack of a better word. eta: Now that this is known, I will have my eye out and will come to the aid of any in this thread who were pained by her bullshit responses.
As for the topic---I am in need of more information of where we are today and clarifying things I read on ADL and what are some sites for the Palestinian side that are good ones. That is where I am learning.
I don't think this is fair. 1 her tirade mostly happened over the weekend when volume is lower. I was sick as shit Sunday, but when I did come back I immediately called her out as did others.
did you by name? Not just I'm tired or this is sad? Then that is good. It was very needed.
I just googled Jewish Voices for Peace and then looked at the ADL link under. Wholly contradiction! (And I didn't even know the group existed and I thought the ADL was the be all end all lol)
If Jewish people can't decide if Jewish people are anti-Semitic, I'm going to shut my trap!
You need to stop. This is basically like saying all black people have to have the same opinions on every subject. Come on now.
I think this has been addressed, but it feels that it is almost impossible to find unbiased information on the topic. I have tried. I have asked questions. I think the issues in the past threads have been mostly squashed where I am concerned, but none of my questions were about being anti-Semitic or having sides. You can't have a side when you know nothing. But every question was seen as an attack on the Jewish posters. That is hard to keep coming back to and when you read something and have questions I don't feel like this is the place to ask for clarification. Honestly, I still don't feel that this is a place for questions on this topic and I don't have people in my personal life to get clarification from.
I don't think this is fair. 1 her tirade mostly happened over the weekend when volume is lower. I was sick as shit Sunday, but when I did come back I immediately called her out as did others.
did you by name? Not just I'm tired or this is sad? Then that is good. It was very needed.
Yes I did. As soon as I came back. I had like an 18 hour bug or something and you can clearly see my last post was early in the morning when I first woke up Sunday and then I went down hill. I didn't come back here until sometime Monday, got caught up on the thread, and called her out. I wasn't hanging around in other posts or just ignoring anything. I was sick as shit. And I would have called it out if I had been here because it was fucked up.
did you by name? Not just I'm tired or this is sad? Then that is good. It was very needed.
Yes I did. As soon as I came back. I had like an 18 hour bug or something and you can clearly see my last post was early in the morning when I first woke up Sunday and then I went down hill. I didn't come back here until sometime Monday, got caught up on the thread, and called her out. I wasn't hanging around in other posts or just ignoring anything. I was sick as shit. And I would have called it out if I had been here because it was fucked up.
good. I didn't mark who did but it was obvious soooooo many didn't.
You are still a fucking bigot no matter how you try to act now that you aren't drunk. You were anti-Semitic for over 24 hours, so that is one hell of a binge, btw.
Also, you know how you can say the N word and I can't? Jews can say inflammatory things to and about each other and random people whose fathers and college professors taught them to hate Jews can't.
What you said and how you acted is unforgivable.
Yo please point out where I said anything antisemetic in the above. I don't think the n word is a fair comparison but you've made up your mind.
First, of course there are dissenting opinions among Jews. We are a vast and diverse group and no one person speaks for all of us (but really, how is that new information?). Heck, Jews cannot even agree on who is considered Jewish, nonetheless anything else. To expect uniformity out of a diverse group is definitely strange. Second, I think any Jewish person/organization speaking on Israel is in a tough spot. On one hand, they're expected to know every nuance of the conflict (which is impossible to do) and on the other, they're considered hopelessly biased (regardless of their feelings). I've seen most Jews overcorrect in both directions: either they cannot criticize Israel at all (sort of in the vein of "I can disapprove of my family all I want, but I'll go balls to the wall for them to any outsider that dares make a criticism") or they are extremely harsh on Israel (disproportionately so). These overcorrections are human and we all do them, but it's important to realize the truth is somewhere in between. And let me be clear: Most Jews ARE biased when it comes Israel and no one understands all the nuances and therefore anyone who speaks on Israel, regardless of their background, risks offending others. It's still important to keep talking. Third, some bells can't be un-rung. While I give you credit for admitting that you were hurling Beckys at Jewish women intending them as a pejorative, it still colors how your words are taken in the future. This was not an accidental slight or momentary slip up and it won't be treated as such. Also, you continued to use apartheid state to describe Israel well after the discussion on that topic had ended and any alcohol was likely well out of your system. So that says something as well.
I was called into this thread by fryjack2. Did anyone read her post or address her concerns?
Or would you much rather fight with me?
I'll admit I didn't say anything before, but I will now. Enough with your shit. If you went in (sober) and read that thread, there were several misreadings, misinterpreted statements, apologies and explanations from several posters. The ONLY ONE that was willfully and purposefully hurtful was YOU. It was clear from your viscousness of words, but then you actually verbalized that your intent was to be hurtful.
Now? You're being reactive, deflecting, making straw man arguments, anything besides what you should be doing, which is rereading your verbal diarrhea while sober, properly apologizing, and the stepping the fuck back.
I apologize to the Jewish posters for not stepping in. As someone said before, it's walking into a large argument between posters you care about, and both sides are hurting. I didn't know what to say. Hell, I don't even now besides I'm sorry you're hurting on this incredibly complicated issue. But I'm sure as heck not going to watch someone continue to show every inch of their ass without saying that it's shitty and needs to stop.
Every community has dissenting voices and different opinions. Of COURSE there are contradictions. There are in the Catholic faith, the Muslim faith, and with every ethnic/racial group I'm aware of. You are acting like this is some radical mepiphany.
No I'm illustrating how we are never going to be able to have a conversation about Israel without someone being called and anti-semite. I looked for info and immediately found conflicting views. I posted the result that I was clearly unable to provide anything of value to the discussion but maybe it's this:
It might be further evidence of the anti-semitism at play in the news coverage, but in our discussions I am struggling to remember a time where there was an article that was posted having an opposing view of Israel's practices that were not challenged for being anti-Semitic or the author / or organization that put out the article as anti-Semitic.
You are still a fucking bigot no matter how you try to act now that you aren't drunk. You were anti-Semitic for over 24 hours, so that is one hell of a binge, btw.
Also, you know how you can say the N word and I can't? Jews can say inflammatory things to and about each other and random people whose fathers and college professors taught them to hate Jews can't.
What you said and how you acted is unforgivable.
Yo please point out where I said anything antisemetic in the above. I don't think the n word is a fair comparison but you've made up your mind.
All I've seen from you are "aw shucks, not my finest moment" and "golly, I better shut up." No apologies, no remorse. Take your own advice and shut up. You should be banned for your *multiple* deliberate attacks on Jewish posters.
Of course not all Jewish people agree with each other. They're not a a homogenous monolith. Being all brand new and shocked about their disagreeing and varied opinions is probably anti-Semitic in and of itself.
And you don't get to say "I was totally anti-Semitic yesterday, but see, look, my posts here are fine."
I really hate it when it happens in black/white race topics and I hate it this time. Please don't tell me or anyone how they have to engage on this board. Plenty of people sit quietly when racist stuff happens and I don't go on a tirade about why people aren't speaking up. It's sad a bunch of people have to come in and justify why they didn't respond when and how someone else deems it appropriate.
I read what was happening and because of the sheer number of Jewish posters vs Fryjack, I wanted to come in and say something on her behalf. I didn't because I don't know enough to back her up intelligently and didn't want to spout nonsense.
This post is going the way of the other post and I think I'm going to have to see myself out of the conversation.
again, since this is partially to me....it was only to respond to Barcelona fucking bullshit. That has always been a comment on this board....when someone is bigoted, they get called on it. I didn't make the other comment so I won't speak for it.
I was called into this thread by fryjack2. Did anyone read her post or address her concerns?
Or would you much rather fight with me?
I am here for fryjack. I don't want her voice to be silenced at all. I want to hear the voices, thoughts, and concerns of Palestinians AND Jews.
But this is what she said to you in part
barcelonagirl. As much as I appreciate your attempts at support, being 4 glasses deep and continuing to be stubborn, willfully ignoring explanations, and an ass was not helpful.
I know I would go the fuck off if someone was in here talking about well Ben Carson said (or hell any black person said) xyz so that must apply to you as well. And so would you.
For all the talk of needing people to be allies, there wasn't much stepping up (aside from about 3 people) as one to call out posters for fucked up things said about Palestinians or to the one Palestinian voice in that thread for a long time.
Thanking me for sharing what my family is experiencing is not the same as calling out posters or liking posts in which I do.
If you don't feel comfortable writing something, a "like" can feel just as supportive.
barcelonagirl. As much as I appreciate your attempts at support, being 4 glasses deep and continuing to be stubborn, willfully ignoring explainations, and an ass was not helpful.
I didn't want to put you on the spot in the other thread, but I'd really be interested in hearing the history of the conflict from the Palestinian point of view. I don't think it gets discussed enough in real life or in these discussions and it is really easy for one voice to get swallowed up. Can you point me in the direction of some resources that can help me fill in these gaps?
I was called into this thread by fryjack2. Did anyone read her post or address her concerns?
Or would you much rather fight with me?
I am here for fryjack. I don't want her voice to be silenced at all. I want to hear the voices, thoughts, and concerns of Palestinians AND Jews.
But this is what she said to you in part
barcelonagirl. As much as I appreciate your attempts at support, being 4 glasses deep and continuing to be stubborn, willfully ignoring explanations, and an ass was not helpful.
I know I would go the fuck off if someone was in here talking about well Ben Carson said (or hell any black person said) xyz so that must apply to you as well. And so would you.
Little Moxie did that to Kirkette right? I believe she exited stage left shortly thereafter.
Yo please point out where I said anything antisemetic in the above. I don't think the n word is a fair comparison but you've made up your mind.
All I've seen from you are "aw shucks, not my finest moment" and "golly, I better shut up." No apologies, no remorse. Take your own advice and shut up. You should be banned for your *multiple* deliberate attacks on Jewish posters.
Of course not all Jewish people agree with each other. They're not a a homogenous monolith. Being all brand new and shocked about their disagreeing and varied opinions is probably anti-Semitic in and of itself.
And you don't get to say "I was totally anti-Semitic yesterday, but see, look, my posts here are fine."
In your own words-- own what you are.
The "own what you are" comment is what really hit a nerve with me. I should have said something when I caught up with that post, but I really couldn't because it brought back So many feelings and experiences that I've had. "Own what you are," I'm human the last time I checked, but that's just one example of how we Jews are seen by a lot of people around us in this country and all the counties where we live and "pass" as long as it's convenient for the masses.
And just one last comment on the other post. You can disagree with a specific policy of Israel and still be pro-Israel, just like you can disagree with any policy of the US and still be pro-US. It's not a hard concept.