This is why I think there will be dockatot deaths. They are HEAVILY recommended in BFing groups as a “safer” way to cosleeping. But then parents are using them to transition from cosleeping to crib. It’s not the intended or safe use and it’s scary.
It’s not even safe for cosleeping, it’s “intended” use. It makes absolutely zero sense that it is suggested for cosleeping, but not for a crib. Their face can still get smushed into the side, even if they are sleeping right next to you.
Yeah I think the dockatot is another product that is marketed for sleep, but the fine print says to watch the baby when it is in use. So it’s actually always going to be misused if it’s used the way it’s marketed.
Newborns need to sleep, too. Sleep is rather important to that developing brain.
This whole situation is a mess. We need a fresh perspective and approach to the entire issue.
Yeah I hate the one sided approach to this, the solution is always for kids to just sleep flat in an empty crib at all times - but many babies absolutely won’t and a human can only take so much sleep deprivation before they crack.
Also If five million kids slept in a rock n play doesn’t that also affect the numbers? That’s a huge volume of babies. Like how many babies die in cribs over a 10 year period? Things dont exist in a vacuum.
Just glad I don’t still have an infant because I remember how frickin hard it is when they just won’t sleep, and this would be a very difficult decision for me.
Npr did a piece on the recall today echoing just what you’re saying. That this is just a first move and they need to study the incidents and compare with infant deaths under other circumstances. The unknown consequence is whether taking away a rather inexpensive and reliable tool for assisting with young babies’ sleep/containment will cause people to make other unsafe choices (eg falling asleep on a couch with baby). There is definitely a socio economic angle to this recall and the reality of working parents, sleep deprivation, and the fact that other alternatives like swings and Mamaroos are expensive and take up lots of space.
Is the snoo unsafe? I almost bought one in desperation MOTN for ds. Both my kids slept in rock n plays and I think I would splurge on a snoo if we had a hypothetical third. (Both my kids were crappy sleepers and the rock n play wasn’t magical but it was better then flat or on my chest. They did 2-3 hour stretches before they were 4 months old/rolling and we moved them to the crib)
Don’t waste your money on a Snoo!
We were given one to test when DD2 was born and I had such high hopes. It was a total failure for us. When both of my kids cried as newborns, they either wanted to nurse or be held. The Snoo could not solve either problem, and honestly just seemed to make DD2 more upset. It’s an outrageously overpriced bassinet.
I am really glad I didn't see the Snoo until it was too late for DS. I would've probably LOLed at a $1300 "smart" bassinet but who knows. This thing is clearly made and marketed to parents who have money to throw at all the things that will be useless in 16 short weeks if you have an early roller/crawler like DS. The Snoo would not have trained him at all as he was desperate to sleep on his tummy and rolled over at 3.5 months to get there.
Yeah I hate the one sided approach to this, the solution is always for kids to just sleep flat in an empty crib at all times - but many babies absolutely won’t and a human can only take so much sleep deprivation before they crack.
Also If five million kids slept in a rock n play doesn’t that also affect the numbers? That’s a huge volume of babies. Like how many babies die in cribs over a 10 year period? Things dont exist in a vacuum.
Just glad I don’t still have an infant because I remember how frickin hard it is when they just won’t sleep, and this would be a very difficult decision for me.
Npr did a piece on the recall today echoing just what you’re saying. That this is just a first move and they need to study the incidents and compare with infant deaths under other circumstances. The unknown consequence is whether taking away a rather inexpensive and reliable tool for assisting with young babies’ sleep/containment will cause people to make other unsafe choices (eg falling asleep on a couch with baby). There is definitely a socio economic angle to this recall and the reality of working parents, sleep deprivation, and the fact that other alternatives like swings and Mamaroos are expensive and take up lots of space.
What you mentioned about sleep deprivation and economic privilege is spot-on. I also loved this quote: “I would love to see more research and insights from the AAP about the relative risk of various sleep options because simply telling people that the crib is the only option for your child in practicality is not a reasonable response.”
The more I think about this I feel like this recall was made without any information. 32 or so babies died out of 4.7 million. This is tragic. I'm not trying to minimize that, but most of those were not properly restrained (user error). A few they have said were restrained and died of positional asphyxiation BUT of those babies how many of these were premature/low birthweight/breathing problems/low tone babies that are at much higher risk of positional asphyxiation regardless of the rock n play?
I'm due with DS2 in August and my gut says "it's recalled. get rid of it", but another big part of me says "this risk is very low and what if I am trading in the RNP for something even riskier like a swing or bouncer?". Napping exclusively in a crib or PNP is not realistic. Additionally, from weeks 0-12 while I am on leave naps aren't really on any schedule. Usually naps happen wherever they fall asleep.
The more I think about this I feel like this recall was made without any information. 32 or so babies died out of 4.7 million. This is tragic. I'm not trying to minimize that, but most of those were not properly restrained (user error). A few they have said were restrained and died of positional asphyxiation BUT of those babies how many of these were premature/low birthweight/breathing problems/low tone babies that are at much higher risk of positional asphyxiation regardless of the rock n play?
I'm due with DS2 in August and my gut says "it's recalled. get rid of it", but another big part of me says "this risk is very low and what if I am trading in the RNP for something even riskier like a swing or bouncer?". Napping exclusively in a crib or PNP is not realistic. Additionally, from weeks 0-12 while I am on leave naps aren't really on any schedule. Usually naps happen wherever they fall asleep.
I'm feeling super conflicted.
icedcoffee I am in this boat too. My initial response was "OMG GET RID OF THE RNP", but the more I think about it I'm not sure what I would do if I had a second. Obviously every death is tragic, but what I really need is for someone to do the math and tell me how the risk of sleeping in a RNP compares to other sleep options.
icedcoffee, I'm in the same boat. I think I'm going to hold on to the RNP for now.
DH and I decided the same. E1 slept in it overnight, and we have resolved that E2 will only sleep in it when we are awake. I feel like our swing is riskier... more padding, no mesh sides like my RNP has.
Post by jeaniebueller on Apr 15, 2019 9:00:23 GMT -5
icedcoffee, I feel the same. WE need to prevent infant deaths, but this recall seems really reactive without more info. Honestly IDK what I would have done without mine. MY DD would not sleep flat until she was 2 months old.
Hmm yeah I mean really couldn’t this easily be spun in the opposite direction ? “Rock n play found to be safest sleeping surface”- if 3000 per year are lost to sids and an average of 3 per year in the rock and play? I just feel like it doesn’t seem to take into consideration the danger associated with infant sleep to being with. I liked the npr story.
Still not sure what I’d do because I’d now feel guilty using it. but that’s what I find hard about this whole thing! I think it’s putting parents in a difficult and possibly unnecessarily so position, when in a sleep deprived state. Ugh it’s a tough one, I hope there is further clarification
Hmm yeah I mean really couldn’t this easily be spun in the opposite direction ? “Rock n play found to be safest sleeping surface”- if 3000 per year are lost to sids and an average of 3 per year in the rock and play? I just feel like it doesn’t seem to take into consideration the danger associated with infant sleep to being with. I liked the npr story.
Still not sure what I’d do because I’d now feel guilty using it. but that’s what I find hard about this whole thing! I think it’s putting parents in a difficult and possibly unnecessarily so position, when in a sleep deprived state. Ugh it’s a tough one, I hope there is further clarification
Agreed. If the numbers icedcoffee posted are correct, it seems like they suggest that the RNP is actually quite safe, in spite of the fact that it flagrantly breaks a ton of the "safe sleep" rules. I mean, obviously not every RNP was routinely used for overnight sleep, but even if only 1 in a hundred was, it seems like you're looking at a risk of dying in it similar to the risk of dying during sleep overall. And I bet way more than 1 in 100 of them were used regularly overnight. Speaking as someone who *didn't* use one in 2014 for my very shitty sleeper because they looked so unsafe, these numbers would make me inclined to consider one for a future baby, rather than confirming my prior opinion of them.
The more I think about this I feel like this recall was made without any information. 32 or so babies died out of 4.7 million. This is tragic. I'm not trying to minimize that, but most of those were not properly restrained (user error). A few they have said were restrained and died of positional asphyxiation BUT of those babies how many of these were premature/low birthweight/breathing problems/low tone babies that are at much higher risk of positional asphyxiation regardless of the rock n play?
I'm due with DS2 in August and my gut says "it's recalled. get rid of it", but another big part of me says "this risk is very low and what if I am trading in the RNP for something even riskier like a swing or bouncer?". Napping exclusively in a crib or PNP is not realistic. Additionally, from weeks 0-12 while I am on leave naps aren't really on any schedule. Usually naps happen wherever they fall asleep.
I'm feeling super conflicted.
If this is found to be true, then there needs to be huge warning labels/weight limits/something on these things, because they get recommended in my micropreemie group all the time.
The more I think about this I feel like this recall was made without any information. 32 or so babies died out of 4.7 million. This is tragic. I'm not trying to minimize that, but most of those were not properly restrained (user error). A few they have said were restrained and died of positional asphyxiation BUT of those babies how many of these were premature/low birthweight/breathing problems/low tone babies that are at much higher risk of positional asphyxiation regardless of the rock n play?
I'm due with DS2 in August and my gut says "it's recalled. get rid of it", but another big part of me says "this risk is very low and what if I am trading in the RNP for something even riskier like a swing or bouncer?". Napping exclusively in a crib or PNP is not realistic. Additionally, from weeks 0-12 while I am on leave naps aren't really on any schedule. Usually naps happen wherever they fall asleep.
I'm feeling super conflicted.
If this is found to be true, then there needs to be huge warning labels/weight limits/something on these things, because they get recommended in my micropreemie group all the time.
My source isn't great, but I saw an info chart that said that these all lead to high risk of positional asphyxiation. Similar to why newborn preemies need to pass a car seat test before leave the hospital I think? Disclaimer: Not a doctor.
If this is found to be true, then there needs to be huge warning labels/weight limits/something on these things, because they get recommended in my micropreemie group all the time.
My source isn't great, but I saw an info chart that said that these all lead to high risk of positional asphyxiation. Similar to why newborn preemies need to pass a car seat test before leave the hospital I think? Disclaimer: Not a doctor.
No, you're correct. LBW/preemie babies are higher risk for positional asphyxiation. I would have to get on my laptop do some deep searching, but that is what I learned from my nursery/NICU job.
If this is found to be true, then there needs to be huge warning labels/weight limits/something on these things, because they get recommended in my micropreemie group all the time.
My source isn't great, but I saw an info chart that said that these all lead to high risk of positional asphyxiation. Similar to why newborn preemies need to pass a car seat test before leave the hospital I think? Disclaimer: Not a doctor.
I think all babies in our hospital require a car seat test. Which I found odd, since it's no different than the previously mentioned unsafe sleep practice of letting them sleep in there wherever and not in the car.
Anyways, if anybody wants to ignore the recall I can tell you my target had a ton in stock today.
Anyways, if anybody wants to ignore the recall I can tell you my target had a ton in stock today. [/quote]
I’m surprised they’re still on shelves. [/quote] I am too, actually. My location is in the middle of a remodel and inventory is a total CF across the store. That might be a major factor.
My source isn't great, but I saw an info chart that said that these all lead to high risk of positional asphyxiation. Similar to why newborn preemies need to pass a car seat test before leave the hospital I think? Disclaimer: Not a doctor.
I think all babies in our hospital require a car seat test. Which I found odd, since it's no different than the previously mentioned unsafe sleep practice of letting them sleep in there wherever and not in the car.
Anyways, if anybody wants to ignore the recall I can tell you my target had a ton in stock today.
my hospital was just under 7lbs for the car seat test.
icedcoffee, I'm in the same boat. I think I'm going to hold on to the RNP for now.
DH and I decided the same. E1 slept in it overnight, and we have resolved that E2 will only sleep in it when we are awake. I feel like our swing is riskier... more padding, no mesh sides like my RNP has.
I’m curious what your opinion on the Owlet monitor is (considering your line of work). We have one, and I don’t want it to make me falsely confident, but I think I’d consider using the RnP with our next baby since that would alert me if their sats dropped.
DH and I decided the same. E1 slept in it overnight, and we have resolved that E2 will only sleep in it when we are awake. I feel like our swing is riskier... more padding, no mesh sides like my RNP has.
I’m curious what your opinion on the Owlet monitor is (considering your line of work). We have one, and I don’t want it to make me falsely confident, but I think I’d consider using the RnP with our next baby since that would alert me if their sats dropped.
I’m not Pooh, but I did have a preemie and wondered about getting an owlet. I spoke to the NICU nurses and they told me not to waste my money. It gives a false sense of security and will also set off false alarms which can be very scary.
DH and I decided the same. E1 slept in it overnight, and we have resolved that E2 will only sleep in it when we are awake. I feel like our swing is riskier... more padding, no mesh sides like my RNP has.
I’m curious what your opinion on the Owlet monitor is (considering your line of work). We have one, and I don’t want it to make me falsely confident, but I think I’d consider using the RnP with our next baby since that would alert me if their sats dropped.
It's nothing but a pulse oximeter. There's a lot of false alarms (usually when the sock moves, gets kicked off, whatever) and can contribute to anxiety rather than help it. Pediatricians generally do not recommend it.
I got a Snuza with my first, but we never even used it.
The more I think about this I feel like this recall was made without any information. 32 or so babies died out of 4.7 million. This is tragic. I'm not trying to minimize that, but most of those were not properly restrained (user error). A few they have said were restrained and died of positional asphyxiation BUT of those babies how many of these were premature/low birthweight/breathing problems/low tone babies that are at much higher risk of positional asphyxiation regardless of the rock n play?
I'm due with DS2 in August and my gut says "it's recalled. get rid of it", but another big part of me says "this risk is very low and what if I am trading in the RNP for something even riskier like a swing or bouncer?". Napping exclusively in a crib or PNP is not realistic. Additionally, from weeks 0-12 while I am on leave naps aren't really on any schedule. Usually naps happen wherever they fall asleep.
I'm feeling super conflicted.
The very first article from Consumer Reports stated that some of the deaths were due to additional bedding and illnesses.
I'm not sure why all we hear about now is positional asphyxiation. I have a feeling, if we knew the real numbers, one could make the case that more children die due to positional asphyxiation in car seats.
Post by karinothing on Apr 16, 2019 9:33:56 GMT -5
I really think the issue re recall was it being marketed as a sleeper. Car seats are not marketed as sleepers. I assume it will be re released with a warning.
Anyways, if anybody wants to ignore the recall I can tell you my target had a ton in stock today. [/quote]
I’m surprised they’re still on shelves. [/quote]
Target wont sell recalled products even if they are in the shelves. One time I tried to buy flipflops there and when I went to check out a million warnings popped on the screen that said do not sell/illegal product etc. You can no purchase them.
I really think the issue re recall was or being marketed as a sleeper. Car seats are not marketed as sleepers. I assume it will be re released with a warning.
I agree which is why I think their recall is kind of weak. Offering an "undetermined amount of money" for RNP's older than 6 months is so weak. If they were serious I think they'd be straight up recalling them 100% or offering some sort of fix.
I don't know. I don't think a lot of people are going to be rushing for their voucher of unknown value. I know for me that's definitely part of the hesitation.
I feel like there's a lot more to the story not being told.
There is a segment at the bottom where they are soliciting info from people who used the RNP, about their thoughts, etc. I think it would be incredibly helpful for them to hear from moms who used it out of desperation or having a newborn that would not sleep flat. The one thing that has been missing from a lot of reporting is that even though most of us know safe sleep guidelines, often babies do not cooperate with safe sleep guidelines and the impact of the exhaustion and stress on the entire household.
It was very clear from the very beginning that a lot of the deaths were from positional asphyxiation. OVER and OVER again people tried to tell people that and no one listened. People still wanted to use them, or they wanted to believe it couldn’t have happened to them because they “used it correctly” by strapping their child in. I’m glad more info is coming out, but the main cause of deaths is not new information.
ETA: And I say this as someone who used one, despite knowing that babies are only supposed to sleep on a flat surface. (I mean, we ALL know that.) But I was a sleep deprived, desperate mom and didn’t truly understand how great the risk was. I’m glad they pulled them so it’s not as easy for a desperate mom who knows better to make the mistake in a moment of weakness.
Interesting. I’m glad they’re finally getting more info out there. We kept ours, but never used it. At around 8 weeks I finally returned to BBB for a refund. Thankfully DS2 is chill AF. I did use a bouncer seat and swing though. And I kept him in his car seat for naps if he tells asleep on the go. Unfortunately, it’s impossible to eliminate all the risk. Hopefully products can be developed that are safe and helpful to parents.