Why wouldn't it be if a news site can't get their own facts straight?
I loved my stepmother. I still talk to her even tho they're no longer together. Was closer to her than my own mother so don't assume that I think that step-relationships can't be just as special as bio relationships.
What.does.it.matter?
I’m going to have to step away from this thread, for multiple reasons.
Because I like facts? If one person says one thing and someone else says something different IN THE SAME ARTICLE then I want to know which it is. I don't in any way think he loved his granddaughter, step or not, any less than a bio granddaughter. Because I have a relationship with a stepparent.
I think its ridiculous that wanting clarification in a news article that says two different things is something wrong to ask.
WTMF to these step comments? I haven’t watched the video or read any recent articles but how could that possibly be relevant? My kids’ grandfather, the only one they’ve ever known, is a step.
I cannot fathom someone who has experience around children (raised children) doing what he did in the video. He obviously didn’t care much about her safety to put her in an insanely dangerous position. Obviously blood related people do these things too, but all these people claiming how devastated he must be and how he doesn’t deserve more punishment, if he’s never had a child or grandchild...it’s different for some people. Dangling a child out of a window, any window, I just cannot.
I mean, are you for real? You know that it’s possible for him to be a step grandparent and a biological grandparent too, right? I mean, this says nothing of what he did to this girl, but this line of thought is just astonishing.
And sometimes I refer to my kids’ grandfather as their step-grandfather, but not always. Mostly because it almost never matters to the conversation.
WTMF to these step comments? I haven’t watched the video or read any recent articles but how could that possibly be relevant? My kids’ grandfather, the only one they’ve ever known, is a step.
I cannot fathom someone who has experience around children (raised children) doing what he did in the video. He obviously didn’t care much about her safety to put her in an insanely dangerous position. Obviously blood related people do these things too, but all these people claiming how devastated he must be and how he doesn’t deserve more punishment, if he’s never had a child or grandchild...it’s different for some people. Dangling a child out of a window, any window, I just cannot.
Well this is just breathtakingly offensive. Believe it or not, those of us who don’t have children aren’t in general incapable of critical thinking when it comes to the safety of children. Pretty sure anyone who caused the death of ANY child regardless of whether and how they were related would feel horrible about it, negligence notwithstanding. Your comment makes it sound like only people who have raised children have this ability.
I cannot fathom someone who has experience around children (raised children) doing what he did in the video. He obviously didn’t care much about her safety to put her in an insanely dangerous position. Obviously blood related people do these things too, but all these people claiming how devastated he must be and how he doesn’t deserve more punishment, if he’s never had a child or grandchild...it’s different for some people. Dangling a child out of a window, any window, I just cannot.
Well this is just breathtakingly offensive. Believe it or not, those of us who don’t have children aren’t in general incapable of critical thinking when it comes to the safety of children. Pretty sure anyone who caused the death of ANY child regardless of whether and how they were related would feel horrible about it, negligence notwithstanding. Your comment makes it sound like only people who have raised children have this ability.
Right? Yes a non-parent night not be up to date on certain kid-issues, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. Those of us who don’t have children can still safely take care of children and assess safety risks in general. Parents and grandparents do stupid shit too. What he did should not be generalized to him doing it because he might not have ever raised a child. (Which we don’t even know if that’s a fact anyway).
Post by cricketintx on Jan 20, 2020 13:14:33 GMT -5
Lurker chiming in, but I have a different take on the step-grandparent thing. (and I'm a stepchild)
In my own mind, the relevance of the step- relationship is that *I* perceive, in *my* family's situation, that my mother would have trouble remaining married to my stepfather if it came out that he was, in fact, negligent.
I absolutely know that isn't the case in all families, and in my husband's family his stepdad IS his dad. But in my family it's not that way. And when you add in what appears to be lying and covering up on top of it, it would really fracture my whole family. And I believe that the *step* piece of it might fracture my family more than if it were my actual father. I believe that my mother would have trouble staying married to my stepdad (in particular because of the negligence and lying) and still looking me in the eye.
I never thought of it as a "he's a step grandfather so he knows nothing about kids" or "he's a step grandfather so he didn't love her the same way." I simply thought of it from an "aftershocks and repercussions as this family tries to find a way forward after this tragedy" perspective. And I think that (again, in MY family), the step- element would matter in that regard.
I, too, noticed that in the video one person identifies him as her grandfather and another as her STEP grandfather. Do we know which one it is definitively?
What does it matter?
I stand by my comments that have been made.
I find it very odd to me that badgergrl made such wild accusations from the beginning that were outside of what was disclosed to the general public. Yes, I agree that they ended up being true but it feels like she knew/knows more than what was released until now.
I still disagree with calling someone a liar because it assumes motive.
Where are you coming from saying badgergrl has all these wild accusations? I just read every single one of her posts in this thread and being a person who has cruised on Royal Caribbean myself, I too know exactly what these windows look like and knew from the get go that the man was not telling the full truth.
There is another post in this thread by someone saying the exact same things as badgergrl but no one said a peep to her.
I think you, along with SEVERAL OTHER POSTERS owe badgergrl an apology.
I, too, noticed that in the video one person identifies him as her grandfather and another as her STEP grandfather. Do we know which one it is definitively?
What does it matter?
I stand by my comments that have been made.
I find it very odd to me that badgergrl made such wild accusations from the beginning that were outside of what was disclosed to the general public. Yes, I agree that they ended up being true but it feels like she knew/knows more than what was released until now.
I still disagree with calling someone a liar because it assumes motive.
I think you need to go back and read from the beginning. BG made it very clear she wasn’t buying the story bc of her personal experience on that ship in that spot.
The grandfather said it was the kid area. BG said it couldn’t be bc she has been in the kid area and it doesn’t have windows.
Grandfather said his color blindness lead to not knowing the window was open. BG said that didn’t make sense bc she has seen the windows and that doesn’t make sense.
I think her personal experience in that immediate area of the ship gave her insights others of us didn’t have. Have you ever heard a new story and bought into what you read/heard until an “insider” gives you more info? I have. In this case, BG had an inside scope that made her question the story from jump.
I find it very odd to me that badgergrl made such wild accusations from the beginning that were outside of what was disclosed to the general public. Yes, I agree that they ended up being true but it feels like she knew/knows more than what was released until now.
I still disagree with calling someone a liar because it assumes motive.
Where are you coming from saying badgergrl has all these wild accusations? I just read every single one of her posts in this thread and being a person who has cruised on Royal Caribbean myself, I too know exactly what these windows look like and knew from the get go that the man was not telling the full truth.
There is another post in this thread by someone saying the exact same things as badgergrl but no one said a peep to her.
I think you, along with SEVERAL OTHER POSTERS owe badgergrl an apology.
Instead of an apology, how about we go on about 'step-parents are parents' for a few pages instead to divert attention?
I didn’t post at the time, but I remember thinking you were overly harsh on a grieving grandparent whose life was ruined from an accident, @badgergirl. I now want to throw him overboard myself on behalf of his family, so I apologize for my initial reaction.
I just can’t believe an adult would do this, whether a grandparent or stranger off the street (this “step” business is ridiculous). This was so preventable. I do think charges are necessary, if for no other reason than to disincentivize other idiots from dangling children over a railing. I’m no lawyer, but if he pleads and the family weighs in on sentencing, won’t he likely get off pretty lightly?
I didn’t post at the time, but I remember thinking you were overly harsh on a grieving grandparent whose life was ruined from an accident, @badgergirl. I now want to throw him overboard myself on behalf of his family, so I apologize for my initial reaction.
I just can’t believe an adult would do this, whether a grandparent or stranger off the street (this “step” business is ridiculous). This was so preventable. I do think charges are necessary, if for no other reason than to disincentivize other idiots from dangling children over a railing. I’m no lawyer, but if he pleads and the family weighs in on sentencing, won’t he likely get off pretty lightly?
I went back and read through your posts here-You sure don’t owe me an apology. This board has certainly changed or evolved my thoughts on things. It’s one of the reasons I have stuck around here despite some negative things. It has made me question some things or strengthened my beliefs in others. We should all be open to Changing our minds. Discourse is good
In all honesty, I have no idea what the court in PR is like- I mean even in my state sentencing varies widely from county to County. I would Guess that he will be given probation and maybe some Nominal jail time as a way to not minimize the child’s death in an optical sense. *. Because I can’t help my mind from wandering there I wonder what the sentence would be if grandpa was black and the cruise ship was a 10 story apartment building and he dangled and killed his granddaughter. I bet the media narrative would have been a lot different.
* I’m not sure I’m explaining that well. I have seen other cases where an otherwise law abiding person (though I don’t know anything about grandpa or his history) did a negligent or reckless act and have seen judges do lengthy probation but give people like 90 days in jail so they don’t look “soft” since someone died or was seriously injured.
Post by karinothing on Jan 21, 2020 6:25:00 GMT -5
So, I realize that this is not really what this post is about anymore but....I have never been on a cruise ship but am shocked the windows open like this. Windows don't open wide on new high rise buildings or in common high rise commercial areas. New apartments buildings don't permit windows to open at high levels. I am honestly shocked that modern cruise ships allow windows to be open to the point where someone could fall out (dangled out the window or no).
ETA: I am not saying grandpa isn't at fault, just that I was surprised the windows opened and don't really see the need for it. If people want a sea breeze they can go outside.
ETA: I am not saying grandpa isn't at fault, just that I was surprised the windows opened and don't really see the need for it. If people want a sea breeze they can go outside.
As irishbride said, these windows are outside. They're much less like windows in a high-rise and more like what you'd find on a patio. Many of the outdoor areas on a ship will have sliding windows like these on the sides to provide a bit of shielding in windy or cooler weather. That way, the outside spaces can still be used comfortably when the weather isn't great. In good weather, their default state is open.
So, I realize that this is not really what this post is about anymore but....I have never been on a cruise ship but am shocked the windows open like this. Windows don't open wide on new high rise buildings or in common high rise commercial areas. New apartments buildings don't permit windows to open at high levels. I am honestly shocked that modern cruise ships allow windows to be open to the point where someone could fall out (dangled out the window or no).
ETA: I am not saying grandpa isn't at fault, just that I was surprised the windows opened and don't really see the need for it. If people want a sea breeze they can go outside.
This is why I have a fear of (me, not everyone else) bringing little kids on a cruise. Given balcony rooms and the decks, which are obviously open air above the railing, I feel like I would be in a state of panic at all times, which is a shame because I’d really like to go on one! I know they’re safe (if you don’t intentionally dangle your child overboard) and this almost never happens, but for some reason, I can’t get over the fear about it.
ETA: I am not saying grandpa isn't at fault, just that I was surprised the windows opened and don't really see the need for it. If people want a sea breeze they can go outside.
As irishbride said, these windows are outside. They're much less like windows in a high-rise and more like what you'd find on a patio. Many of the outdoor areas on a ship will have sliding windows like these on the sides to provide a bit of shielding in windy or cooler weather. That way, the outside spaces can still be used comfortably when the weather isn't great. In good weather, their default state is open.
Oh hmm, I can not picture that at all. So the roof is open? I just saw a picture from the outside of the ship so you could not tell it was an outdoor area. I have never been on a cruise, so I am very unfamiliar.
As irishbride said, these windows are outside. They're much less like windows in a high-rise and more like what you'd find on a patio. Many of the outdoor areas on a ship will have sliding windows like these on the sides to provide a bit of shielding in windy or cooler weather. That way, the outside spaces can still be used comfortably when the weather isn't great. In good weather, their default state is open.
Oh hmm, I can not picture that at all. So the roof is open? I just saw a picture from the outside of the ship so you could not tell it was an outdoor area. I have never been on a cruise, so I am very unfamiliar.
But it's a cruise ship - this one area aside, there's tons of open areas on ships. I assume you know this about ships!
As irishbride said, these windows are outside. They're much less like windows in a high-rise and more like what you'd find on a patio. Many of the outdoor areas on a ship will have sliding windows like these on the sides to provide a bit of shielding in windy or cooler weather. That way, the outside spaces can still be used comfortably when the weather isn't great. In good weather, their default state is open.
Oh hmm, I can not picture that at all. So the roof is open? I just saw a picture from the outside of the ship so you could not tell it was an outdoor area. I have never been on a cruise, so I am very unfamiliar.
Was trying to find pictures of this ship and found a YouTube video showing part of the deck on that ship. Might give a better spacial representation than a still photo: youtu.be/F5e6b2VOdys?t=13
As irishbride said, these windows are outside. They're much less like windows in a high-rise and more like what you'd find on a patio. Many of the outdoor areas on a ship will have sliding windows like these on the sides to provide a bit of shielding in windy or cooler weather. That way, the outside spaces can still be used comfortably when the weather isn't great. In good weather, their default state is open.
Oh hmm, I can not picture that at all. So the roof is open? I just saw a picture from the outside of the ship so you could not tell it was an outdoor area. I have never been on a cruise, so I am very unfamiliar.
As irishbride said, these windows are outside. They're much less like windows in a high-rise and more like what you'd find on a patio. Many of the outdoor areas on a ship will have sliding windows like these on the sides to provide a bit of shielding in windy or cooler weather. That way, the outside spaces can still be used comfortably when the weather isn't great. In good weather, their default state is open.
Oh hmm, I can not picture that at all. So the roof is open? I just saw a picture from the outside of the ship so you could not tell it was an outdoor area. I have never been on a cruise, so I am very unfamiliar.
This article is obviously now irrelevant since more information has become available but if you look at picture 7 you can see how it’s “outside” but still has a sort-of roof over that exact area and a wall of windows.
Post by karinothing on Jan 21, 2020 9:42:15 GMT -5
Thanks folks.
ECB, yes I know there are open areas on ships. The balconies and guard rails I have seen on ships seem to be at chest height and I thought someone mentioned this window was waist height, which in mine seems more unsafe than a balcony railing. But maybe I misread that.
Again, not saying the grandpa was not at fault, just curious about the general safety setup. Anyway, thank you everyone for clarifying.
Oh hmm, I can not picture that at all. So the roof is open? I just saw a picture from the outside of the ship so you could not tell it was an outdoor area. I have never been on a cruise, so I am very unfamiliar.
This article is obviously now irrelevant since more information has become available but if you look at picture 7 you can see how it’s “outside” but still has a sort-of roof over that exact area and a wall of windows.
ECB, yes I know there are open areas on ships. The balconies and guard rails I have seen on ships seem to be at chest height and I thought someone mentioned this window was waist height, which in mine seems more unsafe than a balcony railing. But maybe I misread that.
Again, not saying the grandpa was not at fault, just curious about the general safety setup. Anyway, thank you everyone for clarifying.
In my mind and after seeing the pictures, I think of myself at my shore house lifting my kids up, so they can see the boats floating by and sort of putting their feet on the railing and I hold them upright.
I really think that is what happened and he was not able to contain her and she fell. Either way, I think the grieve is real and it is all the way around a fucked up situation.
ECB, yes I know there are open areas on ships. The balconies and guard rails I have seen on ships seem to be at chest height and I thought someone mentioned this window was waist height, which in mine seems more unsafe than a balcony railing. But maybe I misread that.
Again, not saying the grandpa was not at fault, just curious about the general safety setup. Anyway, thank you everyone for clarifying.
In my mind and after seeing the pictures, I think of myself at my shore house lifting my kids up, so they can see the boats floating by and sort of putting their feet on the railing and I hold them upright.
I really think that is what happened and he was not able to contain her and she fell. Either way, I think the grieve is real and it is all the way around a fucked up situation.
I don’t think it’s quite the same. The railings on the ship are inside the windows (probably for this very reason):
It seems like you would have seen her on the railing in the video if that was the case. Instead she’s out past the railing. Maybe he thought he could put her on the window sill thinking she’d fall backwards against the railing? I don’t know. After looking so much at the window designs, it really seems that they made quite an effort to stop this kind of accident from happening. I feel awful for everyone involved.
It seems like you would have seen her on the railing in the video if that was the case. Instead she’s out past the railing. Maybe he thought he could put her on the window sill thinking she’d fall backwards against the railing? I don’t know. After looking so much at the window designs, it really seems that they made quite an effort to stop this kind of accident from happening. I feel awful for everyone involved.
Seeing it from this angle, i wonder if he was trying to sit her on the railing with her feet resting on the sill.
Everything he said before the video came out, just seems so disingenuous now. Like, there was literally no glass for her to bang on. And even if there was and your plan was to put her on the railing, you wouldn't hang her out the window for 30 seconds to do so. Lying in these instances when there are dozens of cameras around just blows my mind.
Post by sapphireblue on Jan 23, 2020 9:16:41 GMT -5
maloney, I agree. I don't for one second believe he wanted any harm to come to his granddaughter but the video makes it clear that he knew the window was open. My interpretation is that he saw the open window, leaned out of it himself to get a view, then either she was asking to look too, or he thought she would like the view, so he leaned down and picked her up and held her up there, for quite a while.
It does seem like he wasn't coming totally clean about what happened but I think of how flustered I can get during a moment of high drama and obviously this event was 1 million times more than that. I still feel sorry for him and don't think any punishment imposed on him can be any worse than what he must be doing to himself.
That video would make it hard for me as his son or daughter or wife though--I think I would be angry at him. It seems like it crosses the line of what is safe to do with a toddler and that he used some really bad judgment. I would have a hard time getting over my anger at him if I were a member of that family.
Well, the family isn't backing away from their claims. The allege that RC lied and that the video is misleading. They are requesting footage from all 13 cameras in the areas be released.
"Royal Caribbean has demonstrably lied to this court and, in so doing, Royal Caribbean has created a false narrative to accompany Royal Caribbean’s carefully selected CCTV video upon which Royal Caribbean bases its motion to dismiss,” the family’s filing states.
The distance between the window frame and the railing was about 18 inches so to even touch the window with the top of his head, the attorney “had to lift his feet at least seven inches off the ground,” the family says.
The attorney “could not lean ‘out of the window frame’ due to the distance between the railing and the window frame. In fact, it would have been physically impossible for Mr. Anello to have had his head out of the window frame with his feet on the deck,” it states."
Post by Patsy Baloney on Jan 23, 2020 16:01:08 GMT -5
I'm not sure I follow their argument - so because the lawyer could not touch the glass without a 7in boost, there was no way for the grandpa to confirm that the window was open?
Well, the family isn't backing away from their claims. The allege that RC lied and that the video is misleading. They are requesting footage from all 13 cameras in the areas be released.
"Royal Caribbean has demonstrably lied to this court and, in so doing, Royal Caribbean has created a false narrative to accompany Royal Caribbean’s carefully selected CCTV video upon which Royal Caribbean bases its motion to dismiss,” the family’s filing states.
The distance between the window frame and the railing was about 18 inches so to even touch the window with the top of his head, the attorney “had to lift his feet at least seven inches off the ground,” the family says.
The attorney “could not lean ‘out of the window frame’ due to the distance between the railing and the window frame. In fact, it would have been physically impossible for Mr. Anello to have had his head out of the window frame with his feet on the deck,” it states."
They probably didn't release footage from all 13 cameras because it would be horrific, and the family has suffered enough. But... if the family insists. So horrible.
I bet she had her bottom on the bannister, and her feet on the exterior window sill.
I truly believe he knew the window was open. There's no way he thought that window was closed. He did the typical "lean forward to view out" maneuver. He would have felt the humidity from his own breath if his face has been up against the glass. But he surely felt the fresh air against his face.