Post by formerlyak on Jan 31, 2024 12:15:04 GMT -5
Jalapeñomel, I am not surprised that your students are scared of what their parents will say if they get a B in your class. It's AP Chem. For many, it is the first and possibly only class they will get a B in in high school. Because it's hard. And covers a ton of material. But we celebrated the Bs he got in AP Chem and the 4 he got on the AP exam. I have never seen my kid work so hard ever, so I felt it was great that he learned that for some classes he will have to actually study.
Also for my son at least the biggest source of stress/pressure on this topic comes from his peers. We are constantly having to talk him down from what he thinks he needs to do. All of pressure is sort of a group think thing. I know it doesn't come from us. I don't think it comes from the teachers. It is the group chats where they are all like "I am going to take 7 AP courses next year even though we only have 7 periods in the day" lol
You might be on to something here. My son (10th grade) has filled out his schedule for both years so far and I didn't know his classes until after the fact. He literally forged my signature last year. The kids he goes to school with and hangs out with are taking allllllllll the AP classes. Next year he's going to start taking the CCP classes. I'm thrilled much less for the "oooh it's an AP class" aspect and more for the fact that it's less that we'll hopefully have to pay for when he gets to college. I'm hoping since his grades are pretty good and he is about as well rounded as it gets (4 sport athlete, choir, band, drama, volunteers at a cat shelter, will likely get into NHS) he can land somewhere and get a decent scholarship. But really I'm happy that he enjoys all the things he's a part. (except the actual schoolwork--he doesn't care about that, LOL).
Jalapeñomel , I am not surprised that your students are scared of what their parents will say if they get a B in your class. It's AP Chem. For many, it is the first and possibly only class they will get a B in in high school. Because it's hard. And covers a ton of material. But we celebrated the Bs he got in AP Chem and the 4 he got on the AP exam. I have never seen my kid work so hard ever, so I felt it was great that he learned that for some classes he will have to actually study.
The worst part is that so many of these parents will tell their kids that they never took even general HS chem, so they don't really understand how difficult the class is. A B in AP Chem is fucking good!
Post by formerlyak on Jan 31, 2024 12:22:02 GMT -5
InBetweenDays, what you mentioned about increase in apps the first year UDub went on the Common App is what happened with Rutgers this year. Apparently they saw a 50% increase in applications from last year to this year. I don't know the breakdown of in state and out of state, but I would guess between their rise in the rankings and going on Common App, there was a big increase in out of state applicants. It's DS' #2 choice, so when I read the email they sent out about the increased competitive applicant pool this year and being that we are not New Jersey residents, I got really nervous for DS. He did get in and we are going to visit.
InBetweenDays , what you mentioned about increase in apps the first year UDub went on the Common App is what happened with Rutgers this year. Apparently they saw a 50% increase in applications from last year to this year. I don't know the breakdown of in state and out of state, but I would guess between their rise in the rankings and going on Common App, there was a big increase in out of state applicants. It's DS' #2 choice, so when I read the email they sent out about the increased competitive applicant pool this year and being that we are not New Jersey residents, I got really nervous for DS. He did get in and we are going to visit.
H and I both went to Rutgers, he’s going to love it! Such a fun place to go to school!
The competition is insane. And Rutgers now is rejecting some “top” kids that seem likely to go to bigger name schools, which is also hurting everyone. The kid who was #5 in our HS last year was rejected from Rutgers and all but one Ivy. As of March poor kid had one wait list and had been rejected everywhere else they applied, then got into Cornell with a massive scholarship. It’s wild, and feeds the whole “apply 20+ places” mania because of the pressure to go somewhere.
We’re starting with 1 early decision and 1-2 early action schools and won’t be applying elsewhere until we get results from those three. I don’t have $2K to burn on applications alone…
Jalapeñomel , I am not surprised that your students are scared of what their parents will say if they get a B in your class. It's AP Chem. For many, it is the first and possibly only class they will get a B in in high school. Because it's hard. And covers a ton of material. But we celebrated the Bs he got in AP Chem and the 4 he got on the AP exam. I have never seen my kid work so hard ever, so I felt it was great that he learned that for some classes he will have to actually study.
The worst part is that so many of these parents will tell their kids that they never took even general HS chem, so they don't really understand how difficult the class is. A B in AP Chem is fucking good!
I hear you. I did take Chem in high school and actually got some award for being the top Chem student in my class and when I saw the AP Chem syllabus and all the material the course covered, I was blown away.
The worst part is some local independent college counselor told ds he wouldn't be a competitive applicant for STEM programs at the top public schools he wants to go to because of the Bs in AP Chem and Honors Chem (which is a prerequisite for AP Chem at our school). It hasn't been a problem so far. I worked in higher ed for 20+ years and all my admissions colleagues said they know that AP Chem is very difficult and are fine with a B in that class.
ETA: we didn't pay for a college counselor. It was "free" advice when she was trying to get some local clients.
Post by formerlyak on Jan 31, 2024 12:32:27 GMT -5
penguingrrl, the application fees were insane for 14 schools. Around $1000! But even with his high stats, great essay and extras, we were afraid of what you describe given the competition at the big public schools. We are also in CA and the UC schools have become like playing to lottery, so we also hear about that every year and decided to not risk it. UC apps and the application to his top choice are due in November, before EA decisions come out, so we had to get them all in. But he is so excited to have that Rutgers decision in hand. My mom is from NJ and we have a lot of family there, so I also love knowing that if there is an emergency, we have peeps.
penguingrrl, the application fees were insane for 14 schools. Around $1000! But even with his high stats, great essay and extras, we were afraid of what you describe given the competition at the big public schools. We are also in CA and the UC schools have become like playing to lottery, so we also hear about that every year and decided to not risk it. UC apps and the application to his top choice are due in November, before EA decisions come out, so we had to get them all in. But he is so excited to have that Rutgers decision in hand. My mom is from NJ and we have a lot of family there, so I also love knowing that if there is an emergency, we have peeps.
DM me if you have any tips for our visit.
It’s madness! Coming from CA it will be very different lol! But I loved Rutgers so much! I studied history, H studied chemical engineering and we both felt like we got great educations! I don’t have a ton of advice, we don’t make it back to campus as often as we’d like even only living 45 minutes away.
Yes. The Common App is still the Common App, but in recent years more schools have started using it so it's very easy for students to apply to many schools with one single application. I'm not sure there has been a 300% (7k to 21k) increase in applications at these schools, but I know at University of Washington (where I work) they saw a 25% increase in out of state applications the first year they used the Common App. So that certainly is affecting acceptance rates.
we are going to visit your school this spring for DS1! Applying from out of state lol - I’ve never even been to Washington State so I’m excited to visit with him
Let me know if you have any UW or Seattle questions before your visit.
Post by formerlyak on Jan 31, 2024 12:49:38 GMT -5
devonpow we visited from out of state in September (it is the decision he is waiting for before he makes his college choice). DS loved walking around the campus. It is beautiful. The library is stunning. There is a really funny and cool duck ramp in one of the fountains. The mountain wasn't out the day we went, because it was cloudy and rainy, but when it is out, it is amazing. I am not a rain person and it rained the entire time we were there, but ds loved that also. We grabbed coffee and breakfast at a place near campus called Morsels one morning and it was delicious. I also highly recommend the Stay Pineapple Watertown Hotel if you haven't made a reservation yet. We were able to leave our rental car there and walk to campus which was really convenient.
My dad grew up in Seattle, so we have been many times. If you haven't been, be sure to check out the Seattle Center area with the museums and the Space Needle. From there you can take the monorail to the opposite end and walk down to Pike's Place Market. Easy way to see famous Seattle things all in one day.
Also, the middle school my daughter will likely attend offers a few AP courses. Kids can take the AP Environmental Science exam in 8th grade and take AP language exams if they take a language all three years. It is absolutely wild.
This is insane to me.
gummybear There was podcast episode on The Daily recently about the SAT and schools becoming test optional because of concerns about disparity. When in reality access to AP classes and college counselors, the ability to pay for private schools and travel sports, and the freedom to take part in numerous extracurricular activities are all more biased. Because they generally are more out of reach for the disadvantaged groups. So doing away with the SAT can actually cause more disparity.
And the podcast did mention it is easier to get all A's these days and it takes more for students to really try and differentiate themselves with these highly selective schools. So I don't think it's flameful at all to questions whether the proliferation of AP classes may start to water them down somewhat.
Post by formerlyak on Jan 31, 2024 13:29:11 GMT -5
InBetweenDays, I totally agree with your comment about doing away with the SAT potentially causing more disparity. My friends who are admissions officers at a variety of schools and who are application readers have said that the SAT was never weighted as much as people think at the schools they work for. But they help tell the whole picture. If a kid has never had less than an A in math but got a 500 on the math section of the SAT, you might look more closely at other things like the school report and what is "normal" for that high school. It is part of the story, not the whole story.
And now there are so many free study resources for the SAT. Yes, some families will still choose to pay a lot for private SAT tutors, but there really isn't a need when there are amazing free options. From Khan Academy linking to your PSAT to create a customized study plan for you to free peer tutoring through Schoolhouse World where they recruit students who scored well on a section to serve as peer tutors using a tested curriculum. All free!
devonpow we visited from out of state in September (it is the decision he is waiting for before he makes his college choice). DS loved walking around the campus. It is beautiful. The library is stunning. There is a really funny and cool duck ramp in one of the fountains. The mountain wasn't out the day we went, because it was cloudy and rainy, but when it is out, it is amazing. I am not a rain person and it rained the entire time we were there, but ds loved that also. We grabbed coffee and breakfast at a place near campus called Morsels one morning and it was delicious. I also highly recommend the Stay Pineapple Watertown Hotel if you haven't made a reservation yet. We were able to leave our rental car there and walk to campus which was really convenient.
My dad grew up in Seattle, so we have been many times. If you haven't been, be sure to check out the Seattle Center area with the museums and the Space Needle. From there you can take the monorail to the opposite end and walk down to Pike's Place Market. Easy way to see famous Seattle things all in one day.
Thanks! I’m guessing he is going to love it. This is one he picked on his own/no connection from us, he just had a feeling lol. I’m excited to check it out with him! Also we are touring most colleges this February in the Midwest so I assume a spring visit to the west coast will automatically be an improvement lol
This isn't really related, but this thread got me thinking about the cost, and I ran some rough numbers through a few universities' "Net cost calculators".
Our expected family contribution is nearly a third of our GROSS income (not even net!). LOL for days. In what world is that even remotely realistic?
I had kind of predicted that we would fall into that middle area where we make too much for financial aid but not enough to actually pay for college. It's the main reason that I am currently job hunting for a higher paying job. But holy shit.
My kid better study his ass off for SATs so that he qualifies for some serious merit money.
My personal opinion is that no APs are needed. If you want to take a few great, but don't stress. Schools are looking for good grades and rigor but you don't need a million AP classes.
College costs have increased astronomically. I also wonder if some of this has to do with population increases. Because of the first sentence, a lot of people are "chasing merit" and applying to more schools makes that easier. The common app allows more applications (maybe upward to 20 schools).
There is a lot of benefit to applying to lesser known schools with higher yields. There is more of a chance of being admitted and receiving merit. Do your research for your college list, and NPC and everything should fall into place.
Can I ask something genuine without getting flamed?
Are most of these early/advanced/varied choices more prevalent in higher socioeconomic school districts?
AP classes are much more available in more affluent areas. In my city there was a push a few years back to get them into every school; at the time there were 9 schools that offered none. Now they are supposed to all have at least 1 but but even the academic magnet school only offers 3. But more affluent districts might offer in the double digits.
What I’ve been told is that colleges do look what your school offers so they aren’t judging a kid who took the only AP class their school offered harshly for not taking as much as a kid elsewhere might. But it is really uneven. Like most things when it comes to public education.
How are these kids doing so many AP classes? Are they only one semester long now? Can you take them any time in HS? Back in the day you took them Junior and Senior year only after 2-3 years of honors classes. Dual enrollment wasn't a thing back with the Flintstones.
In our school you can start HS math courses in 7th grade to make room for 2 extra AP classes in high school. Also taking summer classes to get ahead to make room for additional AP classes.
Post by plutosmoon on Jan 31, 2024 14:16:24 GMT -5
I work at an elite college, in financial aid so I generally only look at admitted students applications. Not all of them piled on the AP classes, we could admit an entire class full of students with 4.0, perfect SATs, and 8 million APs, we don't do that. Many prep schools don't even have AP classes. It's about the entire application, not just grades and test scores, we might have a very talented artist that struggled in math bringing down their GPA but they are still admitted for their art talent. We have no enrolled students from North Dakota, so you might have a better shot if you are from ND. We want a diverse class with various academic backgrounds, it makes for a more vibrant community. Kids should focus on doing what they love, express that passion for something in their application and they will find their place.
I fully believe college is what you make of it, and you will get a good education just about anywhere. DD is only in 5th grade, she's pretty smart so far, but I will be perfectly happy with state schools for her. I personally attended state schools for ugrad and grad school.
jinkies, most colleges cannot meet your actual financial need, so you'll see high numbers from their net price calculators. I'm fortunate to work at a school that meets full need, so when kids get in, the family can generally afford it, but that is not the case for many colleges. I can't tell my prospective students this, but I'd pick a higher merit award over a lower need based award at the college I work at.
gummybear, My DD will likely attend our local high school, it is title one and my city is a small low income community (average HHI under 50k). We have 10 AP courses and even more Dual enrollment options. It looks like some of the DE options follow AP curriculum. We do have a local state college, so that may help with the DE options.
Can I ask something genuine without getting flamed?
Is the proliferation and wider availability of AP classes lowering their value? Kind of how "travel team" and "club level" is now to sports? You know, back in the day, you had to be REALLY good to play at that level as a youth but now as long as you can pay, you can find a place to play? Are most of these early/advanced/varied choices more prevalent in higher socioeconomic school districts?
I'm not judging. I mean, my kid goes to private school so I have no room to judge.
I don’t really know the actual answer, but I do have an anecdote. My oldest opted to take AP World History in her sophomore year. I have no idea why she wanted to do this, she didn’t really enjoy school all that much at that point and was definitely not a high achiever in her freshman year of HS and she was definitely not college bound at that point. But, she really wanted to, probably because of all the weird pressure that this post has touched on.
She took the class, only passed it by the skin of her teeth, barely a D. Never even took the book out from under her bed the entire school year, did exactly 0 of the readings or homework assignments. Got a 3 on the test and therefore was given a 3 credit history class at her university that she’s at now. 🤷♀️🤷♀️. I don’t understand how a kid who did none of the work or reading can pass the test for college credit.
She didn’t take any other AP classes after that. She did end up in an alternative high school program at a community college for at risk kids because she wasn’t engaged and wanted to drop out completely. She took college classes there and was much happier and performed much better. But looking at her early grades she should never have been a candidate to do well in college so 🤷♀️.
Threads like this worry me that I’m not doing enough. I have a sophomore and while she’s high achieving we don’t have any ivy aspirations and frankly haven’t put much thought into any specific colleges or acceptances. I hope I’m not screwing her. 😔
Post by outnumbered on Jan 31, 2024 15:41:15 GMT -5
Why does your daughter want to go to an Ivy League? Does she have any idea of what she wants in a school? What size, what setting (urban or rural), distance from home, cost? I would not focus on an Ivy as your path in high school. There are so many amazing schools out there that students fall in love with, my daughter ended up at a small women's university in Boston. She is smart, driven, artistic and is thriving at her school. Find the best fit, not the best name.
ETA: I will be blunt all the AP clases in the school will not get your kid in an Ivy. My daughter had all As and above, nothing below an honors level class, 6 AP classes, jazz band, marching band, stage band, a black belt in karate, countless volunteer hours, and high SATs. Ask me how many ivies she got in....yep ZERO. But she ended up somewhere she loves. Ivies aren't the endgame; happiness, success, acceptance, and positive mental health are far more important.
I want to reiterate...there are schools out there for everyone. The top 20 are hyper competitive -- I wouldn't get in today FOR SURE and my kids certainly won't, even though legacy admissions are higher than the standard 5% or whatever. But for the other thousands of awesome colleges, there is something out there for kids.
College admissions are a crap shoot. There are thousands of smart kids in the world. There are thousands of great athletes and singers and artists and scientists. They will get rejected at schools and our job is to help that not be the end of the world.
This pressure parents put on kids is INSANE. I wish we'd stop -- it's not good for kids, it drives them to hate school, and it's all too much.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
Fewer colleges are giving credits for AP classes these days. And even if they do, is it really good to rush through pre-req's? That's your chance to really figure out what you want to do - to dabble and explore. Why rush it?
Speaking from experience as someone who entered college with a full year of credits, I wish I could go back and take those intro classes with my peers. I did graduate early and that saved money, but I wish I had that time back to stay in college, take more time to really discover my passions, and enjoy the experience more.
I do think AP's help to get into college, but it is not necessary to take them ALL. Just take the ones that are most interesting and focus on doing well in those. Use the rest of the time to do extra curriculars and just be a kid!
Also for my son at least the biggest source of stress/pressure on this topic comes from his peers. We are constantly having to talk him down from what he thinks he needs to do. All of pressure is sort of a group think thing. I know it doesn't come from us. I don't think it comes from the teachers. It is the group chats where they are all like "I am going to take 7 AP courses next year even though we only have 7 periods in the day" lol
Sorry, I feel like I'm stalk-quoting you, but 100% yes.
I *just* had a conference with N's math teacher, where she's got her first non-A grade of her life. Teacher is totally fine with where she's at, and said N's grade is more the norm in her class. I mentioned how N compares herself to her peers and teacher basically said exactly what you just mentioned. Kids talk a big game. they self aggrandize to their peers, and it ramps up the pressure kids feel on themselves to keep up. N has said that "like ALL my friends have straight A's, and now I don't." I know for a fact that's not true, from talking with other parents, but this is how kids perceive it. Teacher confirmed that no, of course not every student graduates with a 4.0 (their school doesn't weight AP classes). And they're really firm about how many AP classes they'll let kids take.
But holy crap, kids are SO GOOD at talking themselves up to other kids.
I swear I'm not picking on you and this might have more to the story but I think this reaction is part of the problem. A non-A in a math class that is tough is fine. It's more than fine. If we run to teachers in a panic (not saying that's what happened here...just my experience as a teacher) every time kids don't get an A, we send a message to them that something is wrong and they need to fix it. Bs and Cs in a class where you are working hard are awesome. This is how you learn.
:: off soapbox and again, not picking on you -- more of a general statement! ::
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
Also, the middle school my daughter will likely attend offers a few AP courses. Kids can take the AP Environmental Science exam in 8th grade and take AP language exams if they take a language all three years. It is absolutely wild.
In 8th grade? How is that actually possible? You are supposed to learn the 5 years of a language (from 1 to AP) in 3 years? What an asinine system we have build.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
Post by georgeglass on Jan 31, 2024 16:34:10 GMT -5
The school where I work is constantly in the "let's get rid of AP" and free our curriculum and jump off this roller coaster but the parents would revolt. I will say, my kids started college with a bunch of credits that has made college easier for them.
The college application process was such an interesting process of discovery and acceptance. I watched some of my friends just have ridiculous ideas of who their kids were. I tried so hard to really see my kids and what they wanted vs. fantasies I had. Because I have seen years and years of crazy parents at the competitive private school where I work, I vowed not to be one. I mostly succeeded? I was unbelievably lucky to have three (!!!) college counselor friends at work who answered questions and worked with my kid. At one point, I joked with my daughter's college counselor that she should just tell my kid where to apply - she really understood her. And together, they came up with her top choice and it felt 100% led by my daughter. And she's happy there. It was a school that hadn't been on our radar and had a higher acceptance rate than some of her friend's parents would have found "worthy" but because of that, she has had a lot of opportunity already, and she wouldn't have had that at a more selective school (where we could have pulled strings for an admission).
My son is at a more selective (more rejective) school and he's happy and he knows he could have never been happy at the big school where his sister is.
Post by gretchenindisguise on Jan 31, 2024 17:18:47 GMT -5
I don't know where her want for an Ivy came from, it wasn't from us. Neither of us went to one and neither did any of our family. I should dig into that more. I have done my best to give her a realistic view of admissions percentages and likelihoods but she still wants to.
Maybe this is a different thread, but I'm not even sure how to find those cool smaller colleges/universities. I don't want her going to our alma mater. Not knowing exactly what she wants to study also makes this harder. But I think it's biologicaly wired, I changed my major 5 times in undergrad 🤣. It just makes the course selection and college search a bit more ambiguous.