I’ve never even heard of dual enrollment. I googled and It looks like it’s required to be option at all high schools in MA but I’ve never seen it mentioned in any meeting, referenced in the course catalogue etc. I’m sure there are kids who do it at our school but sounds like it’s our favorite term - “regional”. AP classes and summer college programs (some of which offer course credit if you go to that college but are mostly used to help boost admission possibility) are still the hot things here.
And it’s waaaaay to much pressure on kids. It’s so unbelievably different than when I was applying to college in the dark ages of the ‘90s
It is only offered to students who can not complete their senior year at our school. Think kiddos who have high anxiety, depression, school avoidance, etc. 2 kids in the last 3 years have used it.
Hey, I remembered reading this piece last fall, too- it's a paywalled site, but you can usually get an article in before it locks to subscribers. I found it pretty balanced, there's a lot of blame to go around for why things are the way they are and it's definitely not only on parents.
If an AP class is accessible to a smart high school freshman or even a middle schooler, how is it really "college level"? I'd hope kids are learning something during those four years.
And as sent mentioned earlier, making something like Pre-Calculus an AP seems absurd ("precalculus" is high school math. Sure - it's offered at colleges, but that's to help kids who were underprepared catch up with their peers. What's next? AP GED?)
It looks like my kid's public high school doesn't offer any APs at the 9th grade level - unless you somehow are ready for AB Calculus at that age. The rest are limited by grade level.
I don't want my kid to get overloaded during the school year. What is the value of doing a summer program at a college v. APs? Our flagship state school is commuter distance from us. I'm assuming we'll look into their summer programs for high school students down the line.
If an AP class is accessible to a smart high school freshman or even a middle schooler, how is it really "college level"? I'd hope kids are learning something during those four years.
And as sent mentioned earlier, making something like Pre-Calculus an AP seems absurd ("precalculus" is high school math. Sure - it's offered at colleges, but that's to help kids who were underprepared catch up with their peers. What's next? AP GED?)
It looks like my kid's public high school doesn't offer any APs at the 9th grade level - unless you somehow are ready for AB Calculus at that age. The rest are limited by grade level.
I don't want my kid to get overloaded during the school year. What is the value of doing a summer program at a college v. APs? Our flagship state school is commuter distance from us. I'm assuming we'll look into their summer programs for high school students down the line.
I think a class is offered to freshman but it doesn't mean it should be. I know the AP my son took as a freshman (and it was the only one offered to freshman) is typically offered at other schools as sophomores or juniors. His school also only allows 3 max AP classes a year as a junior or senior (2 as a sophomore, 1 as a freshman). They don't do AP pre-calc for the same reason you mentioned above, but you can do honors pre-calc. I don't even think you can do AP Calc until junior year at the earliest.
Post by expectantsteelerfan on Feb 3, 2024 18:33:14 GMT -5
Back in the late 90's, I took AP Psych as a freshman, but needed to get special permission to do so. It JUST NOW occurred to me that I regret doing so. I went into high school thinking I wanted to go to school for psychology and possibly be a therapist. But AP psych was so science based and I vaguely remember being bored, caring more about the older boys in the class than what they were teaching, etc. I got an A in the class but chose not to take the AP exam. I am honestly now thinking, if I had waited to take that class after I had a full year of biology under my belt at least, I might have had a better foundation for the science and been more open to it. I stopped considering psych as a major, but still wasn't sure what I did want to do in college, and picked English/Education because English was the only class I enjoyed. But although I loved the research aspects of my education classes, I knew in college I didn't really want to be a teacher, but also didn't know what else to do with my major at that point, so I taught (and disliked so much of it) until we started moving around for dh's military assignments and then became a SAHM. When I went to grad school, it was for research in education, although I had to stop the program before finishing for various reasons. But I think if I had stuck to a more science based education, my career would have taken a different, more fulfilling (from where I am right now) path.
I'm also still salty that my college wouldn't accept my 5 on the AP Physics for the 'lab science' requirement and only took it as an elective. It was just as much a lab science as AP Bio and AP Chem at my high school, but those would have counted. Although that did lead me to taking some astronomy courses as my lap sciences, and I ended up a TA for that, so I guess it worked out.
Back in the late 90's, I took AP Psych as a freshman, but needed to get special permission to do so. It JUST NOW occurred to me that I regret doing so. I went into high school thinking I wanted to go to school for psychology and possibly be a therapist. But AP psych was so science based and I vaguely remember being bored, caring more about the older boys in the class than what they were teaching, etc. I got an A in the class but chose not to take the AP exam. I am honestly now thinking, if I had waited to take that class after I had a full year of biology under my belt at least, I might have had a better foundation for the science and been more open to it. I stopped considering psych as a major, but still wasn't sure what I did want to do in college, and picked English/Education because English was the only class I enjoyed. But although I loved the research aspects of my education classes, I knew in college I didn't really want to be a teacher, but also didn't know what else to do with my major at that point, so I taught (and disliked so much of it) until we started moving around for dh's military assignments and then became a SAHM. When I went to grad school, it was for research in education, although I had to stop the program before finishing for various reasons. But I think if I had stuck to a more science based education, my career would have taken a different, more fulfilling (from where I am right now) path.
I'm also still salty that my college wouldn't accept my 5 on the AP Physics for the 'lab science' requirement and only took it as an elective. It was just as much a lab science as AP Bio and AP Chem at my high school, but those would have counted. Although that did lead me to taking some astronomy courses as my lap sciences, and I ended up a TA for that, so I guess it worked out.
AP psych as a freshman does not sound beneficial
I love research too, wish there was more opportunities for that both in education and in career
This sounds just so sad to me. College was when I tried out various things on a whim bc I could! And when could I try out random orgs & sports again in my life?!??
Today I came across this PBS doc on dream schools & it follows 6 kids from senior yr hs to now almost graduating: m.youtube.com/watch?v=WjWLbt12C_s
I have 2 main take aways: 1. Every kid seems to be on their “dream path” as pp called it (I love that!) 2. You gotta be careful what you say around your kids. I think some of the parents legit added pressure to their kids but I think others said off handed comments that their kids internalized & took to an intense place.
This story is exactly why I tell my students AD NAUSEAM that the most selective college they can get into is not necessarily the best place for their personal and academic growth or well-being. They're annoyed by me and don't believe me, but I don't give a shit.
Between 2013 and 2018, fourteen students at Penn died by suicide. North Carolina State University (not nearly as competitive, but still with a less-than-half acceptance rate) had seven students die by suicide during the '22-23 academic year. Reported anxiety and depression in college students is higher than ever (silver lining: I'm glad kids are now labeling it as such and more frequently seeking mental health resources on campus). It's common sense that having a student body comprised exclusively of ultra-high achievers can and probably will lead to unhealthy competition, perfectionism, and anxiety on campus. If a student's mental health is already tenuous and they already feel intense pressure, either internal or external, to get perfect grades and join 34820394820398 activites, there's no damn way I'm going to be like, "Hey! You should apply to a college where everyone was at the top of their high school class!"
This story is exactly why I tell my students AD NAUSEAM that the most selective college they can get into is not necessarily the best place for their personal and academic growth or well-being. They're annoyed by me and don't believe me, but I don't give a shit.
Between 2013 and 2018, fourteen students at Penn died by suicide. North Carolina State University (not nearly as competitive, but still with a less-than-half acceptance rate) had seven students die by suicide during the '22-23 academic year. Reported anxiety and depression in college students is higher than ever (silver lining: I'm glad kids are now labeling it as such and more frequently seeking mental health resources on campus). It's common sense that having a student body comprised exclusively of ultra-high achievers can and probably will lead to unhealthy competition, perfectionism, and anxiety on campus. If a student's mental health is already tenuous and they already feel intense pressure, either internal or external, to get perfect grades and join 34820394820398 activites, there's no damn way I'm going to be like, "Hey! You should apply to a college where everyone was at the top of their high school class!"
Talking to women on this board who have gone into highly competitive careers from competitive colleges have said they are burnt out, depressed, anxious, and overwhelmed.
This article is all the rage in my college alum groups. When I was at Yale in the late 90s, this certainly was not the case (varsity sports and singing groups were appropriately competitive, but every other association, club and organization was welcoming to newcomers, even if you weren't a star). I think it's a reflection of the hyper competitiveness of today's student. Nothing is just for fun anymore; it has to have DEEP MEANING or allow you to GET SOMEWHERE, and it makes me really sad for kids.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
This story is exactly why I tell my students AD NAUSEAM that the most selective college they can get into is not necessarily the best place for their personal and academic growth or well-being. They're annoyed by me and don't believe me, but I don't give a shit.
Between 2013 and 2018, fourteen students at Penn died by suicide. North Carolina State University (not nearly as competitive, but still with a less-than-half acceptance rate) had seven students die by suicide during the '22-23 academic year. Reported anxiety and depression in college students is higher than ever (silver lining: I'm glad kids are now labeling it as such and more frequently seeking mental health resources on campus). It's common sense that having a student body comprised exclusively of ultra-high achievers can and probably will lead to unhealthy competition, perfectionism, and anxiety on campus. If a student's mental health is already tenuous and they already feel intense pressure, either internal or external, to get perfect grades and join 34820394820398 activites, there's no damn way I'm going to be like, "Hey! You should apply to a college where everyone was at the top of their high school class!"
Talking to women on this board who have gone into highly competitive careers from competitive colleges have said they are burnt out, depressed, anxious, and overwhelmed.
Right. It doesn't end with undergrad. I also feel strongly that it doesn't have to start there, especially when the late teens and early 20s are often times when significant mental health issues emerge for young adults who seemed "fine" in high school. When there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that, for most people, their undergraduate alma mater makes a significant difference in happiness and well-being, the pressure to go to a "top ranked" (and don't get me fucking started on the "rankings") school just makes no sense for so many kids.
I'M CLEARLY A VERY POPULAR COLLEGE COUNSELOR AMONG PARENTS WHO WANT "RESULTS." lol
Honestly I have been thinking a lot about the common wisdom of "safety" and "reach" schools and the fact that there always seems to be the subtext that of course you would go to the reach if you got in. But... why? Because it's marginally more selective?
Do kids really need to go to the most selective college that accepts them? I've told this story a million times, but an old boss's kid turned down a full ride to Pitt to go to a more expensive and selective school with no financial aid (not Ivy). It still completely boggles my mind.
This story is exactly why I tell my students AD NAUSEAM that the most selective college they can get into is not necessarily the best place for their personal and academic growth or well-being. They're annoyed by me and don't believe me, but I don't give a shit.
Between 2013 and 2018, fourteen students at Penn died by suicide. North Carolina State University (not nearly as competitive, but still with a less-than-half acceptance rate) had seven students die by suicide during the '22-23 academic year. Reported anxiety and depression in college students is higher than ever (silver lining: I'm glad kids are now labeling it as such and more frequently seeking mental health resources on campus). It's common sense that having a student body comprised exclusively of ultra-high achievers can and probably will lead to unhealthy competition, perfectionism, and anxiety on campus. If a student's mental health is already tenuous and they already feel intense pressure, either internal or external, to get perfect grades and join 34820394820398 activites, there's no damn way I'm going to be like, "Hey! You should apply to a college where everyone was at the top of their high school class!"
I really, really appreciate your voice in these discussions. The mental health reminders are SO important and I feel like I need DD to read what you wrote here. It’s so easy to get caught up in academic hunger games and be like OMG we have to do XYZ and be at level 11 in all the things. In reality you do not. As an adult literally no one cares if you took 5 AP courses or 0 your junior year of high school.
W.T.Faulkner Thank you for the insight and reminder. It’s easy, as parents, to think that the goal is getting our kids into a good college. But really, the goal is to get them into a good, well adjusted life.
Honestly I have been thinking a lot about the common wisdom of "safety" and "reach" schools and the fact that there always seems to be the subtext that of course you would go to the reach if you got in. But... why? Because it's marginally more selective?
Do kids really need to go to the most selective college that accepts them? I've told this story a million times, but an old boss's kid turned down a full ride to Pitt to go to a more expensive and selective school with no financial aid (not Ivy). It still completely boggles my mind.
Lots of times it comes down to pride or status, and the belief that attending that college will result in significant personal and professional connections. And according to that Purdue Gallup study I keep citing, for students from lower socioeconomic groups, matriculation to a selective college actually does improve outcomes later in life. (But these students also often get the benefit of attending a college that meets full need. I sent two kids to Penn last year who qualified for full Pell Grants, and then Penn literally paid for the rest, including books).
But I'm assuming your boss' kid wasn't from a low-income background, given that they didn't get financial aid. In many cases, it comes down to two things: the seventeen year-old has very limited understanding of long-term financial implications of student debt, and the parent does not want to be a "dream-crusher" and wants to allow the student to make their own decisions.
Let me tell you something you already know, too -- a full ride to Pitt is NOTHING to sneeze at! They got 60,000+ applications this year. So many of my kids are like "Pitt is my 'safety.'" (I hate this term, so I try to get them to use "likely.") And it's not! It's absolutely not! lol
This story is exactly why I tell my students AD NAUSEAM that the most selective college they can get into is not necessarily the best place for their personal and academic growth or well-being. They're annoyed by me and don't believe me, but I don't give a shit.
Between 2013 and 2018, fourteen students at Penn died by suicide. North Carolina State University (not nearly as competitive, but still with a less-than-half acceptance rate) had seven students die by suicide during the '22-23 academic year. Reported anxiety and depression in college students is higher than ever (silver lining: I'm glad kids are now labeling it as such and more frequently seeking mental health resources on campus). It's common sense that having a student body comprised exclusively of ultra-high achievers can and probably will lead to unhealthy competition, perfectionism, and anxiety on campus. If a student's mental health is already tenuous and they already feel intense pressure, either internal or external, to get perfect grades and join 34820394820398 activites, there's no damn way I'm going to be like, "Hey! You should apply to a college where everyone was at the top of their high school class!"
I really, really appreciate your voice in these discussions. The mental health reminders are SO important and I feel like I need DD to read what you wrote here. It’s so easy to get caught up in academic hunger games and be like OMG we have to do XYZ and be at level 11 in all the things. In reality you do not. As an adult literally no one cares if you took 5 AP courses or 0 your junior year of high school.
I'm glad my ranting can be perceived as helpful in some small way! lol
My kids at school are always somewhat surprised and horrified by my opinions on this. They were talking about a student on the news last year (there are stories like this EVERY YEAR on local news) who applied to 50+ colleges and got $5 million in scholarships or something (like, what the fuck? why are you doing this?), and I said, "Now there's a kid who needs to go outside!" They couldn't figure out why I wouldn't be amazed and happy for that student. Why WOULD I encourage that behavior!?
Honestly I have been thinking a lot about the common wisdom of "safety" and "reach" schools and the fact that there always seems to be the subtext that of course you would go to the reach if you got in. But... why? Because it's marginally more selective?
Do kids really need to go to the most selective college that accepts them? I've told this story a million times, but an old boss's kid turned down a full ride to Pitt to go to a more expensive and selective school with no financial aid (not Ivy). It still completely boggles my mind.
Lots of times it comes down to pride or status, and the belief that attending that college will result in significant personal and professional connections. And according to that Purdue Gallup study I keep citing, for students from lower socioeconomic groups, matriculation to a selective college actually does improve outcomes later in life. (But these students also often get the benefit of attending a college that meets full need. I sent two kids to Penn last year who qualified for full Pell Grants, and then Penn literally paid for the rest, including books).
But I'm assuming your boss' kid wasn't from a low-income background, given that they didn't get financial aid. In many cases, it comes down to two things: the seventeen year-old has very limited understanding of long-term financial implications of student debt, and the parent does not want to be a "dream-crusher" and wants to allow the student to make their own decisions.
Let me tell you something you already know, too -- a full ride to Pitt is NOTHING to sneeze at! They got 60,000+ applications this year. So many of my kids are like "Pitt is my 'safety.'" (I hate this term, so I try to get them to use "likely.") And it's not! It's absolutely not! lol
I worked in the guidance office in high school my junior year. First, that was a class period for a whole year where I wasn't in an AP or honors class and had time to breathe.
Second, my school was giant and my assigned counselor (by alphabet) sucked. But I made friends with the good counselors who were like chill the F out you will ve fine, go where you are comfortable! One even helped me to apply for random scholarships so I could turn down the full ride at the school I was meh about to go to the one I really wanted and major in English (the other schools money was tied to me majoring in something else). He was right. I loved it.
Also, despite taking a class period that literally earned 0 points on my GPA, I still graduated #4 in a class of 800. It's probably part of why, in fact.
The shitty counselor (same last name, same alphabetic assignment) encouraged my younger brother to go to giant, more prestigious, isolated campus school over (much) less prestigious small school that had his major and that he said felt like "home" to him. Thus kicking off his 7.5 year odyssey through undergraduate, culminating in a degree from...the school he liked best at 17 and was talked out of.
IN CONCLUSION: good counselors are the best, shitty ones favor metrics over people, kids need input from adults who aren't their parents sometimes too, and overloading AP classes is a waste.
Lots of times it comes down to pride or status, and the belief that attending that college will result in significant personal and professional connections. And according to that Purdue Gallup study I keep citing, for students from lower socioeconomic groups, matriculation to a selective college actually does improve outcomes later in life. (But these students also often get the benefit of attending a college that meets full need. I sent two kids to Penn last year who qualified for full Pell Grants, and then Penn literally paid for the rest, including books).
But I'm assuming your boss' kid wasn't from a low-income background, given that they didn't get financial aid. In many cases, it comes down to two things: the seventeen year-old has very limited understanding of long-term financial implications of student debt, and the parent does not want to be a "dream-crusher" and wants to allow the student to make their own decisions.
Let me tell you something you already know, too -- a full ride to Pitt is NOTHING to sneeze at! They got 60,000+ applications this year. So many of my kids are like "Pitt is my 'safety.'" (I hate this term, so I try to get them to use "likely.") And it's not! It's absolutely not! lol
I worked in the guidance office in high school my junior year. First, that was a class period for a whole year where I wasn't in an AP or honors class and had time to breathe.
Second, my school was giant and my assigned counselor (by alphabet) sucked. But I made friends with the good counselors who were like chill the F out you will ve fine, go where you are comfortable! One even helped me to apply for random scholarships so I could turn down the full ride at the school I was meh about to go to the one I really wanted and major in English (the other schools money was tied to me majoring in something else). He was right. I loved it.
Also, despite taking a class period that literally earned 0 points on my GPA, I still graduated #4 in a class of 800. It's probably part of why, in fact.
The shitty counselor (same last name, same alphabetic assignment) encouraged my younger brother to go to giant, more prestigious, isolated campus school over (much) less prestigious small school that had his major and that he said felt like "home" to him. Thus kicking off his 7.5 year odyssey through undergraduate, culminating in a degree from...the school he liked best at 17 and was talked out of.
IN CONCLUSION: good counselors are the best, shitty ones favor metrics over people, kids need input from adults who aren't their parents sometimes too, and overloading AP classes is a waste.
This is so, so, frustrating. The outsized emphasis on (perceived!) prestige is mind-boggling when it comes from adults, who should know better. I'm glad you had a way better experience that included a damn break, because it sounds like you deserved one.
This is a new role for me this year, in a new environment. My experience before this was in multiple counseling/teaching capacities, not just in college counseling, and in high-poverty schools with students who, way more often than not, were the first to graduate attend college in their families. I just can't be bothered to give a fuck about glorifying selectivity in colleges and pushing kids into systems that might crush them early when so many other unavoidable stressors are likely to crush them later on. I always feel like that Kim Kardashian meme where she lost one of her diamond earrings in the ocean and one of the sisters is like, "There's people that are dying, Kim." lol There are problems that we in education can't control -- poverty, community violence, etc. But this obsession with ultra-selective colleges and "prestige" is a problem we created and can actively combat, to the benefit of kids who already had to suffer a bunch of national-level bullshit in their very short lives.
Edit: my contract hasn't been renewed yet and I have yet to face the board, who may be displeased with my tactics, so if I get canned, you'll all know why. lol