And most bike facilities are in white/affluent neighborhoods so enjoy trying not to die while biking on the shoulder to your job that has no bike parking!
And then there is the distance issue. It is so easy to afford housing in a safe neighborhood that is biking distance to work. Good thing people aren't forced to live 50 miles from their place of employment to afford shelter or anything. And of course it is so easy to commute by bike if you have multiple kids.
That problem is super easy to solve, really. Where are you driving them, anyway?
From his blog on how to raise kids:
1 – Start with the assumption that it is NEVER necessary to have two full-time jobs to pay for raising kids. Many people make the wrong assumption because they have been sold the consumer myth that “times are harder now”. They are not harder. Plenty of families with kids, including mine, live a perfectly good life on the equivalent less than one average salary. Instead of two full-time salaries, plan for one, or even better, two part-time ones if both parents want to have time to be real pillars in their kids’ lives.
5 – Drive less. You are endangering your kids when you drive them around town unnecessarily, and you are burning up the very money you could be using to spend time with them. There is no need for a child to ever be part of a fender-bender in a shopping mall parking lot, because there is no real reason for anyone, parent or young child, to ever visit a dedicated shopping mall.
(Note: not on topic but a FANTASTIC quote from higher up in that blog entry about how much children cost: "The cost of raising a child can range all the way from less than zero (if you live in a rural environment and can get your kids to help out on the farm as they did in the olden days) to millions of dollars if you own the Hilton chain of hotels and your children run wild over the world on your credit card.")
Ugh I went for a run to clear my brain and all I could think about this thread. I'm really disappointed that a intelligent MM poster here would fall for this thought process. RAAAAAAAAGE I better leave before I say something mean.
Edit: I got MMM beat....We're going to retire early than many because we don't have kids. Neeners!!!! Suckerrrrrrrrrrrrrrs!
And then there is the distance issue. It is so easy to afford housing in a safe neighborhood that is biking distance to work. Good thing people aren't forced to live 50 miles from their place of employment to afford shelter or anything. And of course it is so easy to commute by bike if you have multiple kids.
That problem is super easy to solve, really. Where are you driving them, anyway?
From his blog on how to raise kids:
1 – Start with the assumption that it is NEVER necessary to have two full-time jobs to pay for raising kids. Many people make the wrong assumption because they have been sold the consumer myth that “times are harder now”. They are not harder. Plenty of families with kids, including mine, live a perfectly good life on the equivalent less than one average salary. Instead of two full-time salaries, plan for one, or even better, two part-time ones if both parents want to have time to be real pillars in their kids’ lives.
5 – Drive less. You are endangering your kids when you drive them around town unnecessarily, and you are burning up the very money you could be using to spend time with them. There is no need for a child to ever be part of a fender-bender in a shopping mall parking lot, because there is no real reason for anyone, parent or young child, to ever visit a dedicated shopping mall.
(Note: not on topic but a FANTASTIC quote from higher up in that blog entry about how much children cost: "The cost of raising a child can range all the way from less than zero (if you live in a rural environment and can get your kids to help out on the farm as they did in the olden days) to millions of dollars if you own the Hilton chain of hotels and your children run wild over the world on your credit card.")
See parents, you are just doing it wrong. Using your kids as slave labor is economic. And hey, it probably keeps them skinny.
And then there is the distance issue. It is so easy to afford housing in a safe neighborhood that is biking distance to work. Good thing people aren't forced to live 50 miles from their place of employment to afford shelter or anything. And of course it is so easy to commute by bike if you have multiple kids.
That problem is super easy to solve, really. Where are you driving them, anyway?
From his blog on how to raise kids:
1 – Start with the assumption that it is NEVER necessary to have two full-time jobs to pay for raising kids. Many people make the wrong assumption because they have been sold the consumer myth that “times are harder now”. They are not harder. Plenty of families with kids, including mine, live a perfectly good life on the equivalent less than one average salary. Instead of two full-time salaries, plan for one, or even better, two part-time ones if both parents want to have time to be real pillars in their kids’ lives.
5 – Drive less. You are endangering your kids when you drive them around town unnecessarily, and you are burning up the very money you could be using to spend time with them. There is no need for a child to ever be part of a fender-bender in a shopping mall parking lot, because there is no real reason for anyone, parent or young child, to ever visit a dedicated shopping mall.
(Note: not on topic but a FANTASTIC quote from higher up in that blog entry about how much children cost: "The cost of raising a child can range all the way from less than zero (if you live in a rural environment and can get your kids to help out on the farm as they did in the olden days) to millions of dollars if you own the Hilton chain of hotels and your children run wild over the world on your credit card.")
Oh FFS. Because "dedicated shopping malls" are the number one destination people are driving to with their kids? Forget day care, school, grocery stores, visits to relatives, sports practices (they have to exercise so you don't get saddled with healthcare costs, right?), or medical appointments (you know, if they accidentally ingest some toxic soda at a play date or something). It's all about the shopping malls.
I feel really sorry for this man's child. "Dad, can I go to Sally's birthday party?" "No, that would require driving, which would endanger your life and cost a lot of money, which would in turn require me to do something other than spout nonsense on the internet for a living."
Omg I just read this thread pandce.proboards.com/thread/435566/copper-mugs-moscow-mules and have to say it takes some serious balls to condemn people for paying for television when you just bought $30 monogrammed copper mugs for your newly constructed custom bar. So minimalist, very budget.
That problem is super easy to solve, really. Where are you driving them, anyway?
From his blog on how to raise kids:
1 – Start with the assumption that it is NEVER necessary to have two full-time jobs to pay for raising kids. Many people make the wrong assumption because they have been sold the consumer myth that “times are harder now”. They are not harder. Plenty of families with kids, including mine, live a perfectly good life on the equivalent less than one average salary. Instead of two full-time salaries, plan for one, or even better, two part-time ones if both parents want to have time to be real pillars in their kids’ lives.
5 – Drive less. You are endangering your kids when you drive them around town unnecessarily, and you are burning up the very money you could be using to spend time with them. There is no need for a child to ever be part of a fender-bender in a shopping mall parking lot, because there is no real reason for anyone, parent or young child, to ever visit a dedicated shopping mall.
(Note: not on topic but a FANTASTIC quote from higher up in that blog entry about how much children cost: "The cost of raising a child can range all the way from less than zero (if you live in a rural environment and can get your kids to help out on the farm as they did in the olden days) to millions of dollars if you own the Hilton chain of hotels and your children run wild over the world on your credit card.")
Oh FFS. Because "dedicated shopping malls" are the number one destination people are driving to with their kids? Forget day care, school, grocery stores, visits to relatives, sports practices (they have to exercise so you don't get saddled with healthcare costs, right?), or medical appointments (you know, if they accidentally ingest some toxic soda at a play date or something). It's all about the shopping malls.
I feel really sorry for this man's child. "Dad, can I go to Sally's birthday party?" "No, that would require driving, which would endanger your life and cost a lot of money, which would in turn require me to do something other than spout nonsense on the internet for a living."
Middle and high income people tend to say that taking care of their children is very expensive, but when you dig right down into it, these people are mostly just being suckered into Consumertown by the amazing amount of marketing that tries to sell products to desperate parents. Or even worse, using their children as an excuse to buy things.
Kids need to really know their parents, and live in a warm and loving environment. And not just furnace-warm, I’m talking about skin, soil, and sunshine-warm. Kids will thrive when they live in a forest of the arms and legs of their parents and siblings, and when their most prized playthings include dirt, water, rocks, and plants. They grow when they learn by observing the laughs and singing and patiently resolved disputes of the family and friends around them.
Does your baby benefit from being left to fend for herself at a day-care when she is still too young to even speak? Do your diaper-clad toddlers really benefit from the early-dropoff and late-pickup options offered by the preschool so the parents can work extra? Do your kids really care whether they ride around in a thirty thousand dollar car instead of a five thousand dollar one? Is that worth saying goodbye to mommy for an extra year of their childhood?
Is the TL;DR of this entitled rich white dude dictates how other people should live? If so, I'll pass. Thanks!
He's the one that doesn't shower after biking to save money.
Don't forget the time he compared brands of olive oil to find the right one so he could supplement his caloric consumption by consuming tablespoons of olive oil. Real food is an unnecessary expense, yo.
Oh FFS. Because "dedicated shopping malls" are the number one destination people are driving to with their kids? Forget day care, school, grocery stores, visits to relatives, sports practices (they have to exercise so you don't get saddled with healthcare costs, right?), or medical appointments (you know, if they accidentally ingest some toxic soda at a play date or something). It's all about the shopping malls.
I feel really sorry for this man's child. "Dad, can I go to Sally's birthday party?" "No, that would require driving, which would endanger your life and cost a lot of money, which would in turn require me to do something other than spout nonsense on the internet for a living."
Middle and high income people tend to say that taking care of their children is very expensive, but when you dig right down into it, these people are mostly just being suckered into Consumertown by the amazing amount of marketing that tries to sell products to desperate parents. Or even worse, using their children as an excuse to buy things.
Kids need to really know their parents, and live in a warm and loving environment. And not just furnace-warm, I’m talking about skin, soil, and sunshine-warm. Kids will thrive when they live in a forest of the arms and legs of their parents and siblings, and when their most prized playthings include dirt, water, rocks, and plants. They grow when they learn by observing the laughs and singing and patiently resolved disputes of the family and friends around them.
Does your baby benefit from being left to fend for herself at a day-care when she is still too young to even speak? Do your diaper-clad toddlers really benefit from the early-dropoff and late-pickup options offered by the preschool so the parents can work extra? Do your kids really care whether they ride around in a thirty thousand dollar car instead of a five thousand dollar one? Is that worth saying goodbye to mommy for an extra year of their childhood?
That is some serious anti-feminist bullshit right there. Good lord.
I work part-time, my kids essentially do "live in a forest of the arms and legs of their parents and siblings" (gag), we have plenty of dirt and plants to go around, and we can bike/walk to a Whole Foods. And yet I still can't be anything but infuriated by this guy.
Even if you are minimalist in your lifestyle, can you imagine how terrible things would be if everybody stopped working at 35? If we had no doctors, dentists, teachers, police officers, firefighters, social workers, engineers, scientists over 35? If the infrastructure and administration of our electric grid, water filtration system, internet network were left solely in the hands of those under 35? This guy loves to spout off about independence, but he needs people to work in order to maintain a modern standard of living, even if that standard doesn't involve daily showers.
Maybe this dude should find some fire in his belly to do something difficult like getting a PhD in biology and working on a cure for cancer.
Not to mention that MMM pays as little in taxes as possible... forget the economy. Our government would collapse due to lack of funding.
Dare I ask about our friend's planned approach to his child's college education? Is the kid supposed to take out gobs of loans because his parents were too busy being pillars in his life to finance it? Or is it totally possible to put oneself through college by working at McDonalds and not having cable? Or is college totally unnecessary in the first place because even a minimum wage worker can enjoy a long and healthy retirement as long as they don't drink soda?
Dare I ask about our friend's planned approach to his child's college education? Is the kid supposed to take out gobs of loans because his parents were too busy being pillars in his life to finance it? Or is it totally possible to put oneself through college by working at McDonalds and not having cable? Or is college totally unnecessary in the first place because even a minimum wage worker can enjoy a long and healthy retirement as long as they don't drink soda?
Stop going to Starbucks and/or college really isn't that expensive apparently.
He's the one that doesn't shower after biking to save money.
Don't forget the time he compared brands of olive oil to find the right one so he could supplement his caloric consumption by consuming tablespoons of olive oil. Real food is an unnecessary expense, yo.
Omg I just read this thread pandce.proboards.com/thread/435566/copper-mugs-moscow-mules and have to say it takes some serious balls to condemn people for paying for television when you just bought $30 monogrammed copper mugs for your newly constructed custom bar. So minimalist, very budget.
For as much as shoegal saves (and I know she does save a lot - well above and beyond the regular tax-advantaged retirement savings vehicles, and probably more than what the average family MAKES in a year)... I can almost guarantee that her household budget is at LEAST what mine is. And my HHI is at least upper middle class.
After the basement project, I'm guessing she will have around 6000 sq ft of living space. I vaguely remember her talking about the purchase price of her house, which would have qualified her for a jumbo loan. While not uncommon, that's not really in the realm of what the average American spends on housing, either.
Shoegal, you are usually a really sweet person and I don't want to run you off the board or anything. But it's an extremely privileged position to be able to easily afford not just the basics, but comforting things like sufficient life insurance, basic retirement investments, house cleaners, and restaurant meals. Or luxuries like Manolos and foreign vacations. LET ALONE ALL of that AND major house renovations AND tens of thousands of dollars a year to invest.
Omg I just read this thread pandce.proboards.com/thread/435566/copper-mugs-moscow-mules and have to say it takes some serious balls to condemn people for paying for television when you just bought $30 monogrammed copper mugs for your newly constructed custom bar. So minimalist, very budget.
For as much as shoegal saves (and I know she does save a lot - well above and beyond the regular tax-advantaged retirement savings vehicles, and probably more than what the average family MAKES in a year)... I can almost guarantee that her household budget is at LEAST what mine is. And my HHI is at least upper middle class.
After the basement project, I'm guessing she will have around 6000 sq ft of living space. I vaguely remember her talking about the purchase price of her house, which would have qualified her for a jumbo loan. While not uncommon, that's not really in the realm of what the average American spends on housing, either.
Shoegal, you are usually a really sweet person and I don't want to run you off the board or anything. But it's an extremely privileged position to be able to easily afford not just the basics, but comforting things like sufficient life insurance, basic retirement investments, house cleaners, and restaurant meals. Or luxuries like Manolos and foreign vacations. LET ALONE ALL of that AND major house renovations AND tens of thousands of dollars a year to invest.
I think this is the problem here. @shoegal has never come across as anything but sweet, supportive, and savvy IMO. I dislike the pile on here because I really like her and I actually don't disagree with the point she made (ETA: And I don't see where she said anything at all about white priviledge, so I'm going to assume she didn't post this with the intent of supporting MMM's ideas regarding that). There ARE ways to cut back on most things if you want to shift your thinking a bit. There are ways to get your primary source of entertainment from TV/internet/books without needing a pricey cable package or the latest and greatest technology to view them on. Most people in the middle class or above (so nearly everyone on this board, I'd wager) do have some element of choice in how they prioritize their spending, and many people could be in a lot better position if they didn't piss away their money on "needs" but instead put it toward their actual goals (I'm right there with them).
However, I don't think shoegal or MMM are the best mouthpieces for this topic since they aren't exactly representative of the general population. I think it's entirely different receiving this message from people who can afford things most of us can only dream of. I know there is no amount of cutting back or saving I could do on my income that would afford me the opportunity to retire super early or take some of the trips people take or spend $600 on a pair of shoes.
I have such a hard time even reading MMM. His writing style is just so preachy and full of general douchbagadness. But this is a new level of shit.
So much to say, but I'll just leave it with I'm so glad he knows more about my health and what caused my health issues (like cancer before age 30) than my doctors. Fuck him.
And @shoegal, I love you, but this is only refreshing to his target audience: the upper middle class with disposable income that could be funneled into investments. We have ppl on this board whose annual income is less than your basement remodel. Not to pick on you (there has been a lot of it), but really?! They should just cut cable and bike to work? I'll tell that to my H when he goes in at 2 am with his kayak tonight (bc he has to work under the docks and times the tides).
I hope @shoegal doesn't leave. She isn't really being personally attacked - we are just picking on MMM (who is albeit her self proclaimed guru and hero).
I also want shoegal to stay. But I will pile on the MMM hate.
Remember, MMM likes to pretend he's retired yet he does carpentry work in exchange for vacations and gifts. I suppose he wants us all to reach 35 and then exchange services instead of working for the man. I've also always hated the insistence that people should bike to work. I have no data to back up my opinion that biking is more dangerous than driving in a car, but I know two bikers that have died vs no car deaths.
I wish the top half wasn't a joke because it would be refreshing to hear him admit that what he recommends is not possible for everyone. If he really thinks everyone can retire early then he should put his money where his mouth is and prove it with non-white single parents making minimum wage living in a bad neighborhood.
One of my favorite quotes from a lecture I saw on TV... "Privilege is invisible to those that have it." Doesn't matter what kind. (Race, peace, health care, clean water.)
My only beef that sounds like MMM is when people complain about being poor or not being able to retire early when it would be possible for them if they made some tough (not impossible) choices. This is a subset of the US middle-class population not the entire US as MMM would argue.
Again, keep Shoegal. Her perky attitude and supportive comments are welcomed on MM.
I hope @shoegal doesn't leave. She isn't really being personally attacked - we are just picking on MMM (who is albeit her self proclaimed guru and hero).
I think because there are not enough early retirement idols to choose from. We just need to find shoegal a more realistic and relatable hero.
I wish the top half wasn't a joke because it would be refreshing to hear him admit that what he recommends is not possible for everyone. If he really thinks everyone can retire early then he should put his money where his mouth is and prove it with non-white single parents making minimum wage living in a bad neighborhood. .
Said person wouldn't be hailed for retiring early, they'd be held up as an example of lazy people who can't be bothered to get a job a raise themselves and their children out of poverty.
After I typed that, I realized you were focusing on having him save enough from minimum wage to retire early, but I'm leaving it. Because if said person did save enough, see my first statement.
I think his advice is probably worth something for the average upper middle class/"working wealthy" household that has a keep up with the joneses mindset and relatively cushy white collar employment. A lot of people who have a lot of discretionary income feel a lot poorer than they should. The problem is that he tries to universalize it to everyone and it's just not workable.
Save darnkatz I'm probably the most vocal, insistent cyclist on this board. But I'd never make the argument that with current conditions most people can or should be biking for transportation. Our country and municipalities haven't prioritized non car transportation and as such it's not feasible nor is it safe for most people. I also live in a quite small house. But the thing is these are choices I've made and that are in no way a struggle for me. I don't feel like I'm making a sacrifice when I get in my bike in the morning, in fact I enjoy it. But when I made 25% of what I do now, walking or biking to work and living in a small home in a "bad" neighborhood weren't "smart choices" and they didn't allow me to save or even think about retiring on time much less early. They were necessities that allowed me to stay just barely out of debt and that was it.
You just described my life right now. The thought of a retirement plan right now is laughable and makes me cry. We live 15 miles from my husband's work in an area that is less than ideal to put it mildly, and he is biking 30 miles round trip 5 days a week. My husband enjoys biking, but it is not enjoyable almost being hit by cars constantly, which creates unneeded stress in our lives. There is little biking infrastructure, and that is why we have made the decision that I will walk/transit with the kids. It's just not safe for me to be biking. I don't fault people for not biking around here even though a car is egregiously expensive for some because it is incredibly harrowing to bike in certain areas. Unfortunately, there is no way to get to my husband's work on time with the transit options available, and a car is out of the question with our budget.
Anyway. That's just a tangent. But yeah. Living in an area that is seriously deficient in biking infrastructure has shown me that it is just not feasible for many people to get on their bikes and ride as a form of transportation. It's unsafe. My husband is an experienced cyclist, so he feels comfortable doing it. It's not too much of a struggle for him. But for many, it would be a serious struggle. It would not be a smart choice, and I wouldn't recommend it. There are many people in my area who are biking inappropriately because there is no infrastructure or education - I often see people on sidewalks, riding the wrong way down the road, riding dangerously (not following road signs, not signaling, not using lights or reflective clothing, etc). I wish that they would stay off the road. It's not pleasant to see people misusing a bicycle. It can have horrible consequences. I hate that well-off morons try to say that it is the right choice to use a bicycle at all times if you are poor. It is just not.
I definitely don't want @shoegal to leave and I hope she doesn't! I admitted to liking the forums on the MMM website, but I actually think MMM has become more sheltered and privileged after his "retirement" since there are so many eyes on him. I've felt for awhile that his posts on his blog are ridiculous and assinine.
I definitely think there are more relatable early retirement heroes out there.
Dare I ask about our friend's planned approach to his child's college education? Is the kid supposed to take out gobs of loans because his parents were too busy being pillars in his life to finance it? Or is it totally possible to put oneself through college by working at McDonalds and not having cable? Or is college totally unnecessary in the first place because even a minimum wage worker can enjoy a long and healthy retirement as long as they don't drink soda?
I LOL'd.
msmerymac are you effing serious about the olive oil?
I'll take working and living at the same time over festering in my own sweat to save 5 cents, thankyouverymuch.
Is he going to find me a bike that will fit 2 kids and get me through 6" of snow on the roads in the winter, or is that society telling me I need something else?
Well, actually, I owned one that could do all that. I biked year-round with it in Chicago. And it could fit 4 kids. 5, if you added a seat to the front, which I've seen someone do. But is it for everyone? Of course not! It is certainly an amazing bicycle, though.