I hope @shoegal doesn't leave. She isn't really being personally attacked - we are just picking on MMM (who is albeit her self proclaimed guru and hero).
I think because there are not enough early retirement idols to choose from. We just need to find shoegal a more realistic and relatable hero.
I agree. MMM sounds very preachy, to say the least. I like @shoegal and we need more of her supportive, chipper, can-do spirit on here.
>>We talk about healthcare expenses as if they are imposed upon us, despite the fact that most of the nation’s health spending is done to treat self-imposed diseases related to the biggest four factors: exercise, diet, stress and sleep.
I hate this shit when someone with ZERO education or experience in health care gives out what amounts to medical advice.
(And yes, Americans could eat healthy and exercise more, but does that fix everything? No. I could go on with antidotes, but I'll skip it for now.)
DA FUQ is he talking about with this BS? I would be dead or completely broke/in debt from ear infection complications , and my husband would be having seizures with out medication, Neither of these is controllable with diet, exercise, stress reduction or proper sleep.
OH and that 4.5 month old little baby? Yea... he'd better eat his veggies in a couple months and learn to go the F to sleep because I've SEEN THE LIGHT we're going to EMBRACE THE CHALLENGE and quit carrying health insurance!!!! That sounds SUPER responsible. WTF... there is NO WAY I'm going to eliminate health care.
Is he going to find me a bike that will fit 2 kids and get me through 6" of snow on the roads in the winter, or is that society telling me I need something else?
Well, actually, I owned one that could do all that. I biked year-round with it in Chicago. And it could fit 4 kids. 5, if you added a seat to the front, which I've seen someone do. But is it for everyone? Of course not! It is certainly an amazing bicycle, though.
Disclaimer: Not my bike. From Google.
I live further north. I should have also added with air temp of -27 and windchill of -40 to -50. We had a midday snow storm this year that made car travel almost impossible let alone bikes with more than 12" of snow blowing around. Kids would have been stuck at DC if I had this! Living in rural areas does not make these bikes very feasible.
Oh FFS. Because "dedicated shopping malls" are the number one destination people are driving to with their kids? Forget day care, school, grocery stores, visits to relatives, sports practices (they have to exercise so you don't get saddled with healthcare costs, right?), or medical appointments (you know, if they accidentally ingest some toxic soda at a play date or something). It's all about the shopping malls.
I feel really sorry for this man's child. "Dad, can I go to Sally's birthday party?" "No, that would require driving, which would endanger your life and cost a lot of money, which would in turn require me to do something other than spout nonsense on the internet for a living."
Middle and high income people tend to say that taking care of their children is very expensive, but when you dig right down into it, these people are mostly just being suckered into Consumertown by the amazing amount of marketing that tries to sell products to desperate parents. Or even worse, using their children as an excuse to buy things.
Kids need to really know their parents, and live in a warm and loving environment. And not just furnace-warm, I’m talking about skin, soil, and sunshine-warm. Kids will thrive when they live in a forest of the arms and legs of their parents and siblings, and when their most prized playthings include dirt, water, rocks, and plants. They grow when they learn by observing the laughs and singing and patiently resolved disputes of the family and friends around them.
Does your baby benefit from being left to fend for herself at a day-care when she is still too young to even speak? Do your diaper-clad toddlers really benefit from the early-dropoff and late-pickup options offered by the preschool so the parents can work extra? Do your kids really care whether they ride around in a thirty thousand dollar car instead of a five thousand dollar one? Is that worth saying goodbye to mommy for an extra year of their childhood?
Well, goodness. My car costs like 1K Mr MM and is 18 years old. I guess if I took DS out of daycare I could retire in 4 years (since I have worked for 5?)
I'm going to brave this maelstrom of MMM hate and disagree with some of you. I like reading MMM because the character of Mr. Money Mustache is a caricature of the author of the blog who tries to share some of his ideas by cursing a lot (usually in humorous ways) and pointing out the sheer ridiculousness of some of the ways things currently are in our society. He says plenty of things I disagree with (esp. the daycare thing), but the whole style of the blog is meant to be a punch in the face to make you stop and think about some of the ideas he proposes.
For example, is it currently possible for 100% of the population to bike everywhere? No, there are some infrastructure issues in places making it somewhat dangerous to bike, plus sometimes the safe bicycle route is 3x as long as it should be due to poorly placed highways, etc. However, it has to start somewhere. Bicycling is a fantastic form of transportation and the more people who start doing it, the more our society will change to accept, accomodate, and enable it.
I don't think I've ever agreed with someone about 100% of their ideas, so I read MMM because I can learn from and be amused by about 90% of what he says (even when I disagree it's food for thought, and his readers do tend to call him out on things which often leads to thoughtful discussions in the comments). I am his target audience - well-educated upper middle class. He knows almost nothing about the lives of those who were born poor and got a shitty education, hence his ignorant comments about white privilege. They are not his target audience - he has ideas for lower income people but thy're very bootstrappy and he doesn't understand that although the bootstraps approach works for some, it fails miserably with many due to factors he's not even aware of.
I fully intend to become financially independent within 10 years and quit my job in software, at which point I will probably devote my life to raising my kids and working or volunteering at something that will improve the educational system. Our school system fails many kids and I want to do what I can to help. Reading MMM is helping me reach that goal.
I think I am most offended at being called a condescending hypocrite and a troll. Yikes, not a fun way to start the day.
My worldview is that individuals have an amazing ability to change their life and own their destiny. I also firmly believe that we can decide how we view OUR life - I can be a grumpy sad face or I can be grateful, satisfied, and hopeful.
I don't see that type of sentiment reflected in many areas of the media or in pop culture generally. So I like a guy who is ballsy enough to put his own unconventional life out there, share how he created enough wealth on his own to build a life that he LOVES. To me, that is admirable and amazingly inspiring.
I'll try to tamper my excitement in the future because I see that its kind of like crossing the streams in Ghostbusters, apparently!
Yikes! I thought I was stirring the pot, but apparently it was kind of like making a shake in a blender with the top off....
I think I am most offended at being called a condescending hypocrite and a troll. Yikes, not a fun way to start the day.
My worldview is that individuals have an amazing ability to change their life and own their destiny. I also firmly believe that we can decide how we view OUR life - I can be a grumpy sad face or I can be grateful, satisfied, and hopeful.
I don't see that type of sentiment reflected in many areas of the media or in pop culture generally. So I like a guy who is ballsy enough to put his own unconventional life out there, share how he created enough wealth on his own to build a life that he LOVES. To me, that is admirable and amazingly inspiring.
I'll try to tamper my excitement in the future because I see that its kind of like crossing the streams in Ghostbusters, apparently!
Yikes! I thought I was stirring the pot, but apparently it was kind of like making a shake in a blender with the top off....
I don't think you're a condescending hypocrite nor a troll, if that matters.
I will agree with you that we can decide how to view our lives. I am generally grateful, satisfied, and hopeful in my own life but I am cognizant enough to realize that a good portion of that comes from being white and all that that entails in this country. I am nowhere near your level or the level of probably 85% of this board but I'm still happy.
I think that your worldview of people being able to change their life is very much not seeing the whole picture. So many people...way more than are in your position of being free to be grateful, satisfied, and hopeful, so many people cannot possibly change their life. The fact that you're insistent that they can is what could come off as condescending to many people. It smacks of white privilege, which, as some PP said, is invisible to those that have it.
I think I am most offended at being called a condescending hypocrite and a troll. Yikes, not a fun way to start the day.
My worldview is that individuals have an amazing ability to change their life and own their destiny. I also firmly believe that we can decide how we view OUR life - I can be a grumpy sad face or I can be grateful, satisfied, and hopeful.
I don't see that type of sentiment reflected in many areas of the media or in pop culture generally. So I like a guy who is ballsy enough to put his own unconventional life out there, share how he created enough wealth on his own to build a life that he LOVES. To me, that is admirable and amazingly inspiring.
I'll try to tamper my excitement in the future because I see that its kind of like crossing the streams in Ghostbusters, apparently!
Yikes! I thought I was stirring the pot, but apparently it was kind of like making a shake in a blender with the top off....
I don't think you're a condescending hypocrite nor a troll, if that matters.
I will agree with you that we can decide how to view our lives. I am generally grateful, satisfied, and hopeful in my own life but I am cognizant enough to realize that a good portion of that comes from being white and all that that entails in this country. I am nowhere near your level or the level of probably 85% of this board but I'm still happy.
I think that your worldview of people being able to change their life is very much not seeing the whole picture. So many people...way more than are in your position of being free to be grateful, satisfied, and hopeful, so many people cannot possibly change their life. The fact that you're insistent that they can is what could come off as condescending to many people. It smacks of white privilege, which, as some PP said, is invisible to those that have it.
So many times THIS. @shoegal, I don't think you are a troll, and I appreciate your encouragement to everyone and general pleasant demeanor.
But I will be the first one to admit that I have been tone deaf in posts (its why PCE CEP hates me), and sometimes it takes some harsh feedback to really reflect inwards. I took some things that were said to me and challenged myself to expand my own worldview.
I would encourage you to do the same, because your follow up this morning just reinforces that you think all the poors and the blah people need are some happy faces and bootstraps. And one million times NO to that.
To be able to be grateful, satisfied, and hopeful is an extremely privileged position to be in.
Not to say that there's anything wrong with feeling that way -- it is certainly the way I feel about my life as well. But I am able to feel that way in large part because I've been dealt an exceptionally good hand from birth onward. Not everyone has the privilege of being as fantastically lucky as I (and you) have been.
I could be wrong but I thought @shoegal said the part about sad/grumpy vs grateful/hopeful in response to the people who are critical of her chipper attitude. I didn't think she meant it like poor people should be happy and that will make their problems go away. It's early, I hope shoegal has time to read/process through the criticisms and come back with an understanding.
I have been critical for my chipper!!!11!11! attitude IRL so it could be me projecting...
I could be wrong but I thought @shoegal said the part about sad/grumpy vs grateful/hopeful in response to the people who are critical of her chipper attitude. I didn't think she meant it like poor people should be happy and that will make their problems go away. It's early, I hope shoegal has time to read/process through the criticisms and come back with an understanding.
I have been critical for my chipper!!!11!11! attitude IRL so it could be me projecting...
I don't think anyone was critical of @shoegal for her critical attitude; on the contrary, people were saying that was a positive about her.
I could be wrong but I thought @shoegal said the part about sad/grumpy vs grateful/hopeful in response to the people who are critical of her chipper attitude. I didn't think she meant it like poor people should be happy and that will make their problems go away. It's early, I hope shoegal has time to read/process through the criticisms and come back with an understanding.
I have been critical for my chipper!!!11!11! attitude IRL so it could be me projecting...
I don't think anyone was critical of @shoegal for her critical attitude; on the contrary, people were saying that was a positive about her.
I'm not about to do any callouts myself but there were some There were definitely more people saying it's a positive thing. If it were me reading the critical ones I would be hurt so like I said, it could be me projecting!
I don't think anyone was critical of @shoegal for her critical attitude; on the contrary, people were saying that was a positive about her.
I'm not about to do any callouts myself but there were some There were definitely more people saying it's a positive thing. If it were me reading the critical ones I would be hurt so like I said, it could be me projecting!
If you're going to get all grumpy sad face about like 2 people saying you're a bit too chipper, while like 20 other people have said that they appreciate your chipper attitude, message boards probably aren't for you.
I'm not about to do any callouts myself but there were some There were definitely more people saying it's a positive thing. If it were me reading the critical ones I would be hurt so like I said, it could be me projecting!
If you're going to get all grumpy sad face about like 2 people saying you're a bit too chipper, while like 20 other people have said that they appreciate your chipper attitude, message boards probably aren't for you.
I don't disagree. But if it was the morning and I'd barely had my coffee I don't know if I would have formed the best response either! Again I could be wrong!
I think I am most offended at being called a condescending hypocrite and a troll. Yikes, not a fun way to start the day.
My worldview is that individuals have an amazing ability to change their life and own their destiny. I also firmly believe that we can decide how we view OUR life - I can be a grumpy sad face or I can be grateful, satisfied, and hopeful.
I don't see that type of sentiment reflected in many areas of the media or in pop culture generally. So I like a guy who is ballsy enough to put his own unconventional life out there, share how he created enough wealth on his own to build a life that he LOVES. To me, that is admirable and amazingly inspiring.
I'll try to tamper my excitement in the future because I see that its kind of like crossing the streams in Ghostbusters, apparently!
Yikes! I thought I was stirring the pot, but apparently it was kind of like making a shake in a blender with the top off....
That is very easy to say when you come from a position of incredible privilege. Have you ever had the pleasure of working with the seriously disenfranchised? Let's say, the working poor, foster kids that have been shuffled from home to home, parents that are drug addicted, people with chronic and terminal illnesses, or even young black males?
Because I work with them every day. I'm sure they would find this article and someone telling them that they have the *amazing* ability to change their life and destiny quite condescending and rude. It is hard to hear about how amazing it is when you are cold and hungry, or hell, worried about getting shot in the back after a routine traffic stop.
So much this. I see it every day as well. People working multiple jobs to make ends meet, living in substandard housing, and no where to go. People who desperately WANT to change their life, bring their children up in something "better" than what they came from/where they are now, and it's incredibly hard to do so when you can barely keep the power on. They don't have the privilege of thinking long term and saving for retirement. Their concern is how are they going to pay their rent and put food on the table. I'd love to sit you in front of some of the families I see on a daily basis and watch you tell them that they can change their lives and their destinies-and see what the response is.
I think @shoegal needs to read "Nickeled and Dimed" and that episode of 30 days where Morgan Spurlock lives on minimum wage. Because I don't know how anyone could read that book or watch that episode and just think, "Gee, if only these people had a better attitude and could be hopeful they could amass wealth, start a successful blog, and retire at 35."
Dare I ask about our friend's planned approach to his child's college education? Is the kid supposed to take out gobs of loans because his parents were too busy being pillars in his life to finance it? Or is it totally possible to put oneself through college by working at McDonalds and not having cable? Or is college totally unnecessary in the first place because even a minimum wage worker can enjoy a long and healthy retirement as long as they don't drink soda?
If college is going to cost on average 100k and you're not a complete hypocrite of a parent you shouldn't be encouraging them to go. If your working years are 18-35 it seems wasteful and not a good ROI to spend almost 25% of that time not earning and going into debt.
Wasn't MMM working in software or something, making $90k+ in his 20s? Good luck stumbling into a high paying job without college.
(I agree that we should in general be encouraging non-college tracks and doing something about the insane price of education, but if you mean to retire at 35, you will need all the help/money you can get.)
Nothing against Shoegal, but it's posts like this and MMM that make people dislike this board. Not all of us (hell, not many of us) can retire early, get out of debt, live on one income, or do anything other than survive.
Post by tacosforlife on Apr 8, 2015 8:44:43 GMT -5
What it comes down to for me is this: I want to look for advice from those who share my core values. My core values involve equality - recognizing white privilege, recognizing systemic sexism, etc. - and empathy - recognizing that sometimes bad things happen and people need help.
None of this is to say that I think individuals can't work hard to improve their lives. Recognizing systemic injustice is not the same as defeatism. But glossing over real systemic injustice by telling people to put on a happy face does nothing to fix systemic injustice.
From where I sit, early retirement (or financial independence or whatever you want to call it) seems to MMM's core value. And I mean CORE VALUE, as he has structured his entire life around that.
Sure, not coming into work every day sounds nice, but I find the sexist statements he makes about parenting and the flippant way he dismisses privilege to be too egregious to ignore. Do I want to take my advice from someone who thinks this way? Absolutely not.
@shoegal, I love your positive attitude and definitely don't want you to leave. I also have some experience at getting slammed by anonymous reviews and know it can really hurt.
That said, I really find this MMM post to be the most offensive of all that we have discussed here. His attitude is so dismissive about so many challenges that real people face. We can appreciate the advice from people who uggest that we shop for low-cost cell plans and even rethink what our life wants vs needs are without forgetting that economic mobility is the lowest it has been in decades and that's not just because people are lazier than ever.
If college is going to cost on average 100k and you're not a complete hypocrite of a parent you shouldn't be encouraging them to go. If your working years are 18-35 it seems wasteful and not a good ROI to spend almost 25% of that time not earning and going into debt.
Wasn't MMM working in software or something, making $90k+ in his 20s? Good luck stumbling into a high paying job without college.
(I agree that we should in general be encouraging non-college tracks and doing something about the insane price of education, but if you mean to retire at 35, you will need all the help/money you can get.)
I don't plan to retire significantly early or anything, but if things go the way I hope/plan and nothing majorly tragic happens, I plan to actually, you know, not work until I die, be able to give my future kids some great opportunities, like travel, education, and music lessons, to have a paid-off home, and to be able to live pretty comfortably in my golden years.
And I have never once thought that was achievable for everyone (unfortunately). I think almost every day how lucky my H and I are to be where we are and to have some financial stability and comfort, although I could always do better. I know way too many people who should be retired and can't, or who are my age and already know they will not be able to retire. And it's not for spending too much on organic chicken at the grocery store.
Also he said people can live on social security$1500 a month. First in Canada it's less I am pretty sure But in my city a basement apt with bugs and no appliances is $800-1000 a month. Plus the rest Don't eat or get new clothes. All set.
@shoegal I encourage you to listen to the episode of This American Life podcast called Three Miles. This was a very eye-opening episode for me in terms of how growing up poor or privileged affects, and in many times cripples, one's future. It's great that you have a positive attitude, but it's unrealistic and downright unsympathetic to think everyone has the power to change their life and destiny when their entire life and experience beats against that hope.
Also he said people can live on social security$1500 a month. First in Canada it's less I am pretty sure But in my city a basement apt with bugs and no appliances is $800-1000 a month. Plus the rest Don't eat or get new clothes. All set.
Duh, you just move to an area with a super LCOL! Uproot your family, pay all the moving expenses, oh, and make sure you still earn the same amount that you do in your HCOL area.