Excellent takedown, everyone! MMM also seems to ignore the fact that society would completely fall apart if everyone got the same type of high-paying job that he had. Unless he's proposing that everyone should be entitled to a six-figure salary, regardless of their particular occupation? But I doubt he thinks that nurses, social workers, garbage truck drivers, janitors, and those evil day care workers are worthy of earnings that would enable them to retire after only nine years of work.
And I know this has been said many times already, but fuck him and his unexamined privilege. I bet most of the cheap stuff he buys so he can feel smug about not succumbing to designer brand brainwashing was made overseas by virtual slave labor, most likely female people of a different race and possibly children. Of course the choices people make have an impact on the course their lives take, but that doesn't negate the existence of structural factors. His assertion that he deserves everything he has because he's awesome and that his lifestyle is somehow an objective, universal path to a good life is narcissistic as hell. And really, with his soda rant, he's put himself squarely in Food Babe territory as far as credibility goes.
Mr. MM had family support. If I remember correctly, his sister financed his first car with a stack of cash, and his parents gave him a stack of cash in college to live on.
He has no fucking clue what it was like to be in college with NO support, taking out a high interest loan so you can buy a shitty car to get to your shitty job, so you can keep paying for your shitty health insurance that doesn't pay for necessary non-self imposed medical treatments. And also the repairs on the shitty car because it's the only car you can afford and bicycling is not an option in your town, and going to a more expensive college in a city with bike paths is also not affordable. And then taking a break from college so you can work two fucking jobs and pay for even more non-self imposed medical issues. And anyone who doesn't understand how stuff like that dooms you from the start needs to pull their head out of their ass.
And from my experience in credit counseling, rest assured the $100 (if that) some people spend on "luxuries" every month would not make one bit of difference in their finances. Because when you are broke for so long, you just need some goddamn soda and cable to put some joy in your life before you off yourself.
I've started about 4 posts on this thread and deleted them all. I come from a very lucky upbringing and my SO and I have had many more opportunities to get ahead. I, in no way, think that my efforts are the only way I have arrived at this place in life. If you don't live under a rock, the situations and major struggles of other people in this country and around the world cannot be ignored. His flippant "white privilege" comments are beyond insensitive.
Mr. MM and his blog posts are extreme and I imagine he thinks his "shock value" will wake people from their slow trudge towards retirement and open their eyes to a different way. That's fine if you are coming from the place and circumstance relative to his experience. I don't enjoy his writing style and decided to ignore his posts in favor of the forums and other bloggers that I find less haughty for lack of a better term.
Financial independence is a fine goal along with early retirement. Frugality, living with less, freedom from work demands and schedules are attainable for people of a certain monetary level. That is a choice and a choice that many people wish they had. But what about people that are only barely surviving? I think his tone, when listening to his "bootstrap rants" from their viewpoint, is just too hard to swallow.
Excellent takedown, everyone! MMM also seems to ignore the fact that society would completely fall apart if everyone got the same type of high-paying job that he had. Unless he's proposing that everyone should be entitled to a six-figure salary, regardless of their particular occupation? But I doubt he thinks that nurses, social workers, garbage truck drivers, janitors, and those evil day care workers are worthy of earnings that would enable them to retire after only nine years of work.
YESSSSSSS!
This is what I always come back to!
I think of the line in Good Will Hunting when Will says, "There's honor in laying brick." Now, obviously, there is a lot more to that scene, but that particular line still rings true. There is honor in doing something that contributes to society at large.
I find it odd how much he chastises people for not wanting to put in the work of things like do-it-yourself home repair, all while seeming to despise work.
Wow, why didn't we all think of living this way? Given that most of our expensive medical bills are due to a condition I had at birth, the surgery that day that saved my life and the as-yet-unknown long-term effects since I was one of the first to survive the condition, sure, the soda I never drink and exercise I do daily is what's causing my expenses and if I just had had the foresight to not be born with a congenital condition I would totes be able to retire next year.
Excellent takedown, everyone! MMM also seems to ignore the fact that society would completely fall apart if everyone got the same type of high-paying job that he had. Unless he's proposing that everyone should be entitled to a six-figure salary, regardless of their particular occupation? But I doubt he thinks that nurses, social workers, garbage truck drivers, janitors, and those evil day care workers are worthy of earnings that would enable them to retire after only nine years of work.
YESSSSSSS!
This is what I always come back to!
I think of the line in Good Will Hunting when Will says, "There's honor in laying brick." Now, obviously, there is a lot more to that scene, but that particular line still rings true. There is honor in doing something that contributes to society at large.
I find it odd how much he chastises people for not wanting to put in the work of things like do-it-yourself home repair, all while seeming to despise work.
Were we to suddenly start living like Mr. Money Mustache suggests, the implications for the economy would be dire; were we to start spending like we did in the 1990s, things would feel great. Mustachism may save us from our worst excesses, but saving, ultimately, isn’t the only point. A better economy requires more income growth, not just more personal thrift.
I know this was addressing generational wealth, but I would argue that he has benefited from generational wealth in addition to white privilege. Maybe not Walton family level generational wealth, but he started out after college from $0 instead of -$100K+, which already put him way ahead.
Well, actually, I owned one that could do all that. I biked year-round with it in Chicago. And it could fit 4 kids. 5, if you added a seat to the front, which I've seen someone do. But is it for everyone? Of course not! It is certainly an amazing bicycle, though.
Disclaimer: Not my bike. From Google.
I live further north. I should have also added with air temp of -27 and windchill of -40 to -50. We had a midday snow storm this year that made car travel almost impossible let alone bikes with more than 12" of snow blowing around. Kids would have been stuck at DC if I had this! Living in rural areas does not make these bikes very feasible.
yes. this little contraption would have been AMAZING in our 9 feet of snow.
I know this was addressing generational wealth, but I would argue that he has benefited from generational wealth in addition to white privilege. Maybe not Walton family level generational wealth, but he started out after college from $0 instead of -$100K+, which already put him way ahead.
Kind of like starting at 3rd base, instead of home plate. Which, btw, was not a bad analogy, @meepmeep.
I know this was addressing generational wealth, but I would argue that he has benefited from generational wealth in addition to white privilege. Maybe not Walton family level generational wealth, but he started out after college from $0 instead of -$100K+, which already put him way ahead.
Kind of like starting at 3rd base, instead of home plate. Which, btw, was not a bad analogy, @meepmeep.
Exactly. I'm 34 and still trying to dig out from what started out as modest student loans. But years of qualifying for $0 repayment due to our household income combined with interest growing and not being able to make payments (thanks to having trouble paying rent on under 600 SF apartments; yay living the high life) have made them large. I have at least 10 years before my undergrad at a state school is paid off. And that's the part that wasn't covered by academic scholarships.
I live further north. I should have also added with air temp of -27 and windchill of -40 to -50. We had a midday snow storm this year that made car travel almost impossible let alone bikes with more than 12" of snow blowing around. Kids would have been stuck at DC if I had this! Living in rural areas does not make these bikes very feasible.
yes. this little contraption would have been AMAZING in our 9 feet of snow.
Well, to be fair, she said six inches, which is totally doable with this bike. Not nine feet. I have biked in those windchills before, though. Which is neither here nor there, because like I said, this isn't for everyone. She just asked for an example. I grew up in upstate Wisconsin, so I'm well aware that this wouldn't have worked in a rural area during winter.
Post by irene adler on Apr 8, 2015 10:09:53 GMT -5
I didn't make it past the whole bait and switch between the first and second paragraph. I hate that upworthy style of writing.
That being said, I did read all the comments here that affirm that it is just another insufferable piece that may have 1 - 2 wonderful gems of wisdom mixed in with a lot of "it worked for me, what's your excuse" (ala Maria Kang www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/mom-3-called-bully-excuse-fitness-photo-article-1.1487278). It sucks that crap like this gets blog hits and generates income.
I like MMM for what he is--an extremist who has some good ideas muddled with a lot of views I side eye. If I have the energy, I enjoy looking for the advice I can get behind while ignoring what is awful. I don't have that emotional fortitude to wade through this often. @shoegal, I love your energy and hope this doesn't dissuade you from posting.
Excellent takedown, everyone! MMM also seems to ignore the fact that society would completely fall apart if everyone got the same type of high-paying job that he had. Unless he's proposing that everyone should be entitled to a six-figure salary, regardless of their particular occupation? But I doubt he thinks that nurses, social workers, garbage truck drivers, janitors, and those evil day care workers are worthy of earnings that would enable them to retire after only nine years of work.
And I know this has been said many times already, but fuck him and his unexamined privilege. I bet most of the cheap stuff he buys so he can feel smug about not succumbing to designer brand brainwashing was made overseas by virtual slave labor, most likely female people of a different race and possibly children. Of course the choices people make have an impact on the course their lives take, but that doesn't negate the existence of structural factors. His assertion that he deserves everything he has because he's awesome and that his lifestyle is somehow an objective, universal path to a good life is narcissistic as hell. And really, with his soda rant, he's put himself squarely in Food Babe territory as far as credibility goes.
Reading this post shows me how little of his blog you've read and how little you understand about his lifestyle (and his over-the-top writing style). Nowhere does he suggest that everyone can retire in their 30s, but he does talk about the basic math of how the higher percentage savings you can get, the less time it takes to retire. And specifically, that this is easiest to do by reducing expenses once you already make a reasonable salary (say at least $50k/year - and he has a couple of posts on jobs where you can make $50k/year without having gone to college, which is no less ridiculous than the many such articles scattered around the internet on getting higher-paying jobs). He's not saying you can retire on minimum wage. I don't even know how to address your completely unfounded accusations about buying cheap stuff from slave labor - he does a lot less of that than the average american, since he tends to buy very little and mostly high-quality products that last. As for his views on soda, they're no worse than any health blogger who thinks sugar is evil. Soft drinks ARE bad for you (except in moderation) and it IS ridiculous the amounts that many people consume.
Excellent takedown, everyone! MMM also seems to ignore the fact that society would completely fall apart if everyone got the same type of high-paying job that he had. Unless he's proposing that everyone should be entitled to a six-figure salary, regardless of their particular occupation? But I doubt he thinks that nurses, social workers, garbage truck drivers, janitors, and those evil day care workers are worthy of earnings that would enable them to retire after only nine years of work.
And I know this has been said many times already, but fuck him and his unexamined privilege. I bet most of the cheap stuff he buys so he can feel smug about not succumbing to designer brand brainwashing was made overseas by virtual slave labor, most likely female people of a different race and possibly children. Of course the choices people make have an impact on the course their lives take, but that doesn't negate the existence of structural factors. His assertion that he deserves everything he has because he's awesome and that his lifestyle is somehow an objective, universal path to a good life is narcissistic as hell. And really, with his soda rant, he's put himself squarely in Food Babe territory as far as credibility goes.
Reading this post shows me how little of his blog you've read and how little you understand about his lifestyle (and his over-the-top writing style). Nowhere does he suggest that everyone can retire in their 30s, but he does talk about the basic math of how the higher percentage savings you can get, the less time it takes to retire. And specifically, that this is easiest to do by reducing expenses once you already make a reasonable salary (say at least $50k/year - and he has a couple of posts on jobs where you can make $50k/year without having gone to college, which is no less ridiculous than the many such articles scattered around the internet on getting higher-paying jobs). He's not saying you can retire on minimum wage. I don't even know how to address your completely unfounded accusations about buying cheap stuff from slave labor - he does a lot less of that than the average american, since he tends to buy very little and mostly high-quality products that last. As for his views on soda, they're no worse than any health blogger who thinks sugar is evil. Soft drinks ARE bad for you (except in moderation) and it IS ridiculous the amounts that many people consume.
LOL, now tell me how his views on daycare aren't totally offensive. Please.
I admit, I do sometimes read MMM. But, he's also extremely nutty and over the top, and I fully admit that there are many people that have just never had the opportunities he's had. I love the idea of financial independence, and like a pp, reading his blog sometimes helps jar my little privileged brain into realizing I can make some decisions to lower my spending and increase my savings and investing.
I find in his history a lot of parallels for me - both grew up in Canada in middle or upper middle class families. Both went to school for computer/engineering degrees, graduated with no debt, then moved to the US with a pretty sweet job offer in hand. Both with various forms of parental assistance over the years.
I happily admit I'm a SCRU. I also know that my career field is pretty lucrative for the time/expense to enter it.
There are a couple major differentials between his experience and mine. He hit the tech bubble, and benefitted from it - I entered the workforce a little later, just in time to have a front row seat on the tech crash. He had the male privilege of not having to prove himself in the tech field, as well. I _still_ have to deal with the occasional dude that seems to think I'm somehow not qualified to do what I do, after more than a decade of experience in my field.
Oh, yeah, and I became a trailing spouse, because I married someone who wanted to follow his career, and we chose together to give him that opportunity.
Even when I started on that same 3rd base as MMM (I agree that this was a good analogy), there are still some stumbling blocks in place for some that he doesn't seem to realize exist. I attempt to see my privilege. I'm not always successful, but it's pretty hard to completely ignore the fact that I started out with some basic advantages that not many get to have.
And, there's also the fact that not everyone _wants_ to live like MMM. There are things I would most definitely prioritize over "retiring" in my mid-30's.
Excellent takedown, everyone! MMM also seems to ignore the fact that society would completely fall apart if everyone got the same type of high-paying job that he had. Unless he's proposing that everyone should be entitled to a six-figure salary, regardless of their particular occupation? But I doubt he thinks that nurses, social workers, garbage truck drivers, janitors, and those evil day care workers are worthy of earnings that would enable them to retire after only nine years of work.
And I know this has been said many times already, but fuck him and his unexamined privilege. I bet most of the cheap stuff he buys so he can feel smug about not succumbing to designer brand brainwashing was made overseas by virtual slave labor, most likely female people of a different race and possibly children. Of course the choices people make have an impact on the course their lives take, but that doesn't negate the existence of structural factors. His assertion that he deserves everything he has because he's awesome and that his lifestyle is somehow an objective, universal path to a good life is narcissistic as hell. And really, with his soda rant, he's put himself squarely in Food Babe territory as far as credibility goes.
Reading this post shows me how little of his blog you've read and how little you understand about his lifestyle (and his over-the-top writing style). Nowhere does he suggest that everyone can retire in their 30s, but he does talk about the basic math of how the higher percentage savings you can get, the less time it takes to retire. And specifically, that this is easiest to do by reducing expenses once you already make a reasonable salary (say at least $50k/year - and he has a couple of posts on jobs where you can make $50k/year without having gone to college, which is no less ridiculous than the many such articles scattered around the internet on getting higher-paying jobs). He's not saying you can retire on minimum wage. I don't even know how to address your completely unfounded accusations about buying cheap stuff from slave labor - he does a lot less of that than the average american, since he tends to buy very little and mostly high-quality products that last. As for his views on soda, they're no worse than any health blogger who thinks sugar is evil. Soft drinks ARE bad for you (except in moderation) and it IS ridiculous the amounts that many people consume.
But he says this: Living on a low wage (even minimum wage) and saving a good portion of our income is equally possible. And that's just preposterous for most people living on a low wage or minimum wage.
I get that he wants people to step out of their comfort zones and try something new. But that coin has two sides. He needs to step out of his comfort zone and learn that his experiences are not universal and that there are people out there doing everything "right" and still not getting ahead.
He all but denies the existence of white privilege in the post that started this thread. He has made incredibly condescending comments about working parents. That people do not want to listen to advice from a smug douchebag is not suprising.
Post by dawnzersong on Apr 8, 2015 10:27:57 GMT -5
The biking bit is really pissing me off. I live in Michigan, where decades of lobbying by the auto industry have pretty much blocked decent public transit and bike/pedestrian-friendly infrastructure. That's starting to change now as people are realizing how poorly a car-centric mindset serves our communities, and other modes of transit are becoming much more important in local and regional planning. And the reason that's happening is that a group of people who are very passionate about nonmotorized transit put in hundreds of hours of their lives every year doing the work necessary to make it happen. They work for nonprofit organizations and local governments, where they work tirelessly to educate people, gather community input, and bring many different stakeholders together to craft and implement policy that is both vertically equitable and beneficial to society as a whole. It is hard and often thankless work. And these people sure as hell aren't making anywhere near enough to retire at 35 and do some carpentry work once in awhile if they get bored. MMM's lifestyle is underwritten by a lot of invisible work done by a whole lot of people, and yet he feels justified in looking down his nose at them and scolding them for making bad decisions. It's gross.
The biking bit is really pissing me off. I live in Michigan, where decades of lobbying by the auto industry have pretty much blocked decent public transit and bike/pedestrian-friendly infrastructure. That's starting to change now as people are realizing how poorly a car-centric mindset serves our communities, and other modes of transit are becoming much more important in local and regional planning. And the reason that's happening is that a group of people who are very passionate about nonmotorized transit put in hundreds of hours of their lives every year doing the work necessary to make it happen. They work for nonprofit organizations and local governments, where they work tirelessly to educate people, gather community input, and bring many different stakeholders together to craft and implement policy that is both vertically equitable and beneficial to society as a whole. It is hard and often thankless work. And these people sure as hell aren't making anywhere near enough to retire at 35 and do some carpentry work once in awhile if they get bored. MMM's lifestyle is underwritten by a lot of invisible work done by a whole lot of people, and yet he feels justified in looking down his nose at them and scolding them for making bad decisions. It's gross.
The biking bit is really pissing me off. I live in Michigan, where decades of lobbying by the auto industry have pretty much blocked decent public transit and bike/pedestrian-friendly infrastructure. That's starting to change now as people are realizing how poorly a car-centric mindset serves our communities, and other modes of transit are becoming much more important in local and regional planning. And the reason that's happening is that a group of people who are very passionate about nonmotorized transit put in hundreds of hours of their lives every year doing the work necessary to make it happen. They work for nonprofit organizations and local governments, where they work tirelessly to educate people, gather community input, and bring many different stakeholders together to craft and implement policy that is both vertically equitable and beneficial to society as a whole. It is hard and often thankless work. And these people sure as hell aren't making anywhere near enough to retire at 35 and do some carpentry work once in awhile if they get bored. MMM's lifestyle is underwritten by a lot of invisible work done by a whole lot of people, and yet he feels justified in looking down his nose at them and scolding them for making bad decisions. It's gross.
Sorry, jenny1980. Our engagement is off. I'm marrying this one now.
Listen, I can say that I find reading about minimalism and contemplating how much of my life is consumed by "wants" rather than true needs a sometimes valuable pursuit. The idea that if you want to be less constrained, you need to NEED less is valid.
But being a douchebag to drive that point home is still being a douchebag. There are plenty of minimalist blogs. I assume there are other early retirement blogs. If these are things you aspire to, you're not required to become a disciple of a douchebag. You could follow someone nice. I hear the Pope is pretty cool this time around.
oswin, what about your college experience changed you? Thank you for sharing that personal information.
You know, I'm not even sure. Part of it may have been the incredible workload just generally crushing the life out of me. Part of it was probably exposure to a lot more people from different backgrounds and a general awareness of the world. Also, my version of "teenage angst" seemed to the take the form of reading the news and getting incredibly depressed about all of the horrible things going on in the world (I started college in 2005 and politics was really depressing to me and had been for the previous couple of years). I think I struggled with un-diagnosed depression throughout college until finally I just stopped caring about the plight of others (in other parts of the world) because it was just too big of a weight to carry. Years later, I'm finally starting to regain some of the optimism about the world that I had when I met my husband. I'm finally starting to think about what I can do to change the world for the better. DH has helped focus me a little, since he tends to focus on problems closer to home (disadvantaged kids in local schools, etc) than starving children in Africa or politics in the middle east.
I am often perplexed why someone like MMM would think my daycare provider, with a degree in early childhood education and decades of experience in child care, would be LESS well equipped than me, with degrees in business and never changed a diaper pre kids, to take care of my child.
Well, I don't know. Does your day care provider have a forest of legs? Dirt and plants? These things are key.
I haven't read muh of MMM's drivel, but it seems as though it's a lot of "work hard, save at all costs, retire before your burn out" advice. While that may work for some, it is not advisable, practical, or possible for the vast majority. I have student loans. My husband has student loans. We got no help for college from family, so we came out with debt. My husband joined the military after working after college because his career field tanked and we weren't making enough to make ends meet. At the very least, we knew the army would afford us healthcare, a place to live, and food on the table. While it's been amazing for us, it comes with its pitfalls. His salary is laughable at best. We move every few years. It's extremely difficult for me to get a good paying job when I can't stay with a company for more than a few months without packing up and moving again. And guess what? Every time we move, we lose half our income until I find another job. It took me five months to start getting paid after our last move. To pay our fixed costs and buy food, we burned through our savings. We have done that consistently over four moves in six years.
So why doesn't my husband just get out and find a stable civilian job? I have a chronic health problem that has cost our insurance thousands in the past year alone. We have paid exactly 0 dollars in healthcare costs. That is something we value more than actual cash in the bank. My treatments/tests/appointments are only going to get more frequent and more expensive, so he stays in primarily for the health insurance.
Would I like to retire and live the good life? Absolutely. Is that a reality in our lives right now? No. I'm not naive enough to think that buckling down for a few years is going to afford us freedom and yachts and champagne. We will continue to pay down our debt and build up our savings when we have the money to do so. That's our reality.
Excellent takedown, everyone! MMM also seems to ignore the fact that society would completely fall apart if everyone got the same type of high-paying job that he had. Unless he's proposing that everyone should be entitled to a six-figure salary, regardless of their particular occupation? But I doubt he thinks that nurses, social workers, garbage truck drivers, janitors, and those evil day care workers are worthy of earnings that would enable them to retire after only nine years of work.
And I know this has been said many times already, but fuck him and his unexamined privilege. I bet most of the cheap stuff he buys so he can feel smug about not succumbing to designer brand brainwashing was made overseas by virtual slave labor, most likely female people of a different race and possibly children. Of course the choices people make have an impact on the course their lives take, but that doesn't negate the existence of structural factors. His assertion that he deserves everything he has because he's awesome and that his lifestyle is somehow an objective, universal path to a good life is narcissistic as hell. And really, with his soda rant, he's put himself squarely in Food Babe territory as far as credibility goes.
Reading this post shows me how little of his blog you've read and how little you understand about his lifestyle (and his over-the-top writing style). Nowhere does he suggest that everyone can retire in their 30s, but he does talk about the basic math of how the higher percentage savings you can get, the less time it takes to retire. And specifically, that this is easiest to do by reducing expenses once you already make a reasonable salary (say at least $50k/year - and he has a couple of posts on jobs where you can make $50k/year without having gone to college, which is no less ridiculous than the many such articles scattered around the internet on getting higher-paying jobs). He's not saying you can retire on minimum wage. I don't even know how to address your completely unfounded accusations about buying cheap stuff from slave labor - he does a lot less of that than the average american, since he tends to buy very little and mostly high-quality products that last. As for his views on soda, they're no worse than any health blogger who thinks sugar is evil. Soft drinks ARE bad for you (except in moderation) and it IS ridiculous the amounts that many people consume.
You're right in that all I've read of his blog is what's been quoted in this thread. As far as what he buys, I'm assuming it's fair to say that he probably goes for the $30 jeans over the $150 jeans, and the $5,000 reliable used car over the fully loaded seven-passenger SUV that he himself mentioned, etc. My point is that many of the "reasonably priced" things that people buy in an effort to be frugal actually do have a high cost, only the consumer isn't the one who actually pays it. I guarantee the computer he uses to pass judgment on people who haven't accumulated as much wealth as he has was not made under ethical conditions. I'm not saying that he is worse than any other American for that- I made that comment specifically in the context of his denial of his own privilege. Most Americans are assholes in their role as consumers, myself included, but MMM specifically is a hypocrite on top of that.
Everyone knows that soda isn't good for you. That's just common sense, and he's really not doing anything to enlighten anyone by advising them not to drink it. However, soda is NOT responsible for the majority of people's medical issues, and for the vast majority of people, refraining from it isn't going to make a significant difference in their health care costs. What you call an "over-the-top writing style" is, IMO, bad writing indicative of ignorance and hysteria.