Wow, that was a long read. I've actually been reading MMM's blog for years. It's full of useful info (Ting!) even if you have to wade through self-congratulatory posts about Badassity and face-punches and Crossfit to get to them. In fact, was it ESF who said that she doesn't understand his hatred of work? I would say that if anything, he seems to worship at the alter of work, especially if it involves manly physical things like biking, carpentry, snow shoveling and weight lifting. I don't think he revels in his own sweat to save money; I think it's autoerotic.
But I digress.
So, he makes a joke about white privilege and it seems like the punchline is that he can't be racist because his wife is biracial? WTF? The bits of misogyny have always been there but the racism is new. I'd be open to finding a new anti-consumerist, early-retirement, financial-independence blog if anyone has any suggestions?
Wow, that was a long read. I've actually been reading MMM's blog for years. It's full of useful info (Ting!) even if you have to wade through self-congratulatory posts about Badassity and face-punches and Crossfit to get to them. In fact, was it ESF who said that she doesn't understand his hatred of work? I would say that if anything, he seems to worship at the alter of work, especially if it involves manly physical things like biking, carpentry, snow shoveling and weight lifting. I don't think he revels in his own sweat to save money; I think it's autoerotic.
But I digress.
So, he makes a joke about white privilege and it seems like the punchline is that he can't be racist because his wife is biracial? WTF? The bits of misogyny have always been there but the racism is new. I'd be open to finding a new anti-consumerist, early-retirement, financial-independence blog if anyone has any suggestions?
If it was me, I have zero recollection of it, or anything about him. I don't think I knew a thing about him until I read this thread. He sounds like a giant tool.
As long as that is back away slowly from this thread while you mull over the privilege issue, not back away slowly never to be seen again! (((((@shoegal)))))))
But, what is there for her to mull over? That she had white privilege? That she sees her world thru rose-colored glasses? That she should apologize for her luck/fortune?
This is not towards you, rubytue, but so we are now chastising people who thinks differently from the rest of us? I get that some of her comments (as well as MMM's) are very preachy, but come on. Some of the comments towards @shoegal is kind of below the belt.
I'm neither white nor rich, but I'm just a little annoyed with the negativity that came out of what could have been a very healthy discussion on retirement, albeit from a douche-y (MMM) source.
I did not like the personal attacks on shoegal either. It is neither helpful, nor is it an effective form of debate.
I do understand why this thread was so heated. This wasn't about something "thinking differently from the rest of us." MMM appears to be both sexist and racist and shoegal is a big fan. Do you not see how that would bother people? There is nothing to debate about sexism and racism. There is no other viewpoint. If any poster is going to post an article with racist undertones, then yeah, things aren't going to go well.
In your other post, you ask how MMM is different than Suze or others. I haven't heard any of them deny that white privilege exists.
daisypaloma - if you thought my post was telling shoegal to sit in a corner - that was NOT my intention. She said she was going "back slowly away" and "reflect" on the posts. I was trying to say to reflect on message and not back away forever.
A couple random things. First of all, I'm a big fan of shoegal generally ... she's shared some amazing resources and insight in the past, and I appreciate her input. I hate MMM with the fire of a thousand suns though. His rants on daycare, his holier than thou attitude, his inability and yet tireless need to try to make new words happen ... he's annoying as fuck.
What bugs me the most about MMM though, is his failure to see his privilege ... not just white privilege, but ALL of the advantages he's had. It's been a while since I've hate read him, so forgive me if i'm missing stuff, but here's at least a partial list of the privilege he's enjoyed: a family that valued education, financial help throughout and after college, no learning disabilities, a lot of intelligence, an aptitude towards a very highly compensated skillset, an able body, at least a middle class upbringing (I can't remember specifically if he was middle or upper middle class or higher? But I know he wasn't living in poverty), and oh yes the white privilege thing. I think that calling what he has enjoyed simply white privilege - while that is a huge, huge part of it - overlooks a lot of his other happy advantages. And one of the other biggest advantages he had was his timing. College was cheaper when he went, and jobs were more plentiful when he graduated, especially in his field, than they are now.
So this guy got lots of help from his parents to go to college and doesn't plan on doing a damn thing for own his kids? Is that correct? (I've never read him and am not giving him more clicks - this is what I've gathered from posts here). Because there is another huge + in the "asshole" column. I do not think parents "have" to help their kids, but when they so easily can and refuse, after getting so much help themselves, that makes you a crappy person.
I'm sorry, but I absolutely will side eye the judgment of someone who looks up to this person as an idol.
I might be totally not remembering correctly, but he is Canadian and I believe he went to university in Canada. Which is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than going to school here in the US, so even without parental help, his propositions on paying your way through college are ridiculous compared to his own situation.
Not sure what happened on pages 2-6 of this thread. I read MMM's April Fool's post and nodded in agreement until he said "April Fools!" To quote the Blues Brothers, "Fvck that noise [and him]."
I'm with ESF he's a tool and I want to throat punch him or at least throw him into a life where he graduated with student loans in the fall of 2008.
daisypaloma - if you thought my post was telling shoegal to sit in a corner - that was NOT my intention. She said she was going "back slowly away" and "reflect" on the posts. I was trying to say to reflect on message and not back away forever.
FWIW, that's how I read your post.
I really hate cross-board pile ons. Anyone who had read MM regularly would know that @shoegal is the most encouraging, positive person on here and she regularly posts helpful, on- and off-topic threads to keep the discussion going. I know that I have made some unintentionally hurtful posts here (maybe more on CEP) over the years and have learned from them. Heck, it's partially discussions on GBCN that have helped me to understand the magnitude of my own privilege. If we crucify otherwise kind, helpful people for everything we disagree on - and most especially after they have apologized and promised to reflect - how do we expect to learn from each other?
(I've already said I found that MMM post pretty offensive, so my post is about our treatment of one of our own members. No objection at all to disagreeing with him.)
I really don't think anyone other than MMM has been crucified here.
No one has confused shoegal with MMM.
We're allowed to say that he's an idiot without the disclaimer that shoegal is Little Miss Sunshine. She's a big girl. She can go cry into her custom copper Moscow Mule mugs for an evening, put on her big girl panties, and come on back any time. But yes, you're judged for the company you keep, and if you go on about how he's SO INSPIRATIONAL, that does count toward how people see you.
Where are all these "personal attacks" on Shoegal people keep talking about?
Seriously. She got off easy! CEP would not have been this nice.
Yes, I can confirm that.
Like I said to shoegal - I get it. Sometimes we need to hear some harsh realities to take a moment to evaluate some things. I don't mind that people told me to take some time to examine my feelings on a certain topic. But some people said some really harsh things to me personally about how my comments changed their perception of me as a poster. And yes, while I get that, that is hard to hear when you have been posting on a goddamn board for 8+ years. and then it is more annoying when some people recently posted about the issue, dared me to comment, and then when I did, didn't even take the time to respond which IMO was rude. But whatever, its a message board, people are going to do what they want. And I'll just continue posting over there while MM dies a slow and painful death even if they don't want to participate in my threads.
I thought that was H&F? Are they not nice anymore? I wouldn't know as I have pursued neither health nor fitness lately. (wilted)
Lol! It's possible, I only went over there once. They seemed nice, but probably not as nice as MM. Sure, they're high on endorphins and all, but when that wears off, how nice can they be?
Seriously. She got off easy! CEP would not have been this nice.
Yes, I can confirm that.
Like I said to shoegal - I get it. Sometimes we need to hear some harsh realities to take a moment to evaluate some things. I don't mind that people told me to take some time to examine my feelings on a certain topic. But some people said some really harsh things to me personally about how my comments changed their perception of me as a poster. And yes, while I get that, that is hard to hear when you have been posting on a goddamn board for 8+ years. and then it is more annoying when some people recently posted about the issue, dared me to comment, and then when I did, didn't even take the time to respond which IMO was rude. But whatever, its a message board, people are going to do what they want. And I'll just continue posting over there while MM dies a slow and painful death even if they don't want to participate in my threads.
I was out of town when that happened. I'm sorry. (hug)
I watched a few episodes of The Wire and just couldn't get into it. [[ducks]]
(Note: I don't doubt it is a good show -- just couldn't grab me)
Ditto. And we live in Baltimore so we really wanted to get into it. H got up to season 2 or 3, but then it lost him. He like the season about the ports.
You gotta learn how to incorporate, "Come at the king, you best not miss" into your daily conversations.
I KNOW!!! I really just need to set some time aside to watch it. Maybe this summer, when I have Fridays off, I will commit to watching two episodes a day. I have HBO Go so I think I can watch them all through my roku on there.
So this guy got lots of help from his parents to go to college and doesn't plan on doing a damn thing for own his kids? Is that correct? (I've never read him and am not giving him more clicks - this is what I've gathered from posts here). Because there is another huge + in the "asshole" column. I do not think parents "have" to help their kids, but when they so easily can and refuse, after getting so much help themselves, that makes you a crappy person.
I'm sorry, but I absolutely will side eye the judgment of someone who looks up to this person as an idol.
I might be totally not remembering correctly, but he is Canadian and I believe he went to university in Canada. Which is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than going to school here in the US, so even without parental help, his propositions on paying your way through college are ridiculous compared to his own situation.
Yes, MMM is Canadian so college was either cheap or free. And I think that because he is Canadian, his kid will be able to attend cheaper or free Canadian college too. Or the parents could pay for the child to go almost anywhere. Based on a post they did a couple years ago I'd guess that they have 2-5 million dollars which will only grow because they live on about 25K per year.
I think he has just posted numerous times that paying for a child's college expenses is a want and not a need. This is not that radical when you are choosing between your own retirement due to old age and paying for your child's college. It's weird coming from MMM because he's talking about young retirement. Who chooses not working for a couple extra years over sending their kid to college? It's especially rich given his posts about Raising Children Properly (TM).
I might be totally not remembering correctly, but he is Canadian and I believe he went to university in Canada. Which is SIGNIFICANTLY cheaper than going to school here in the US, so even without parental help, his propositions on paying your way through college are ridiculous compared to his own situation.
Yes, MMM is Canadian so college was either cheap or free. And I think that because he is Canadian, his kid will be able to attend cheaper or free Canadian college too. Or the parents could pay for the child to go almost anywhere. Based on a post they did a couple years ago I'd guess that they have 2-5 million dollars which will only grow because they live on about 25K per year.
I think he has just posted numerous times that paying for a child's college expenses is a want and not a need. This is not that radical when you are choosing between your own retirement due to old age and paying for your child's college. It's weird coming from MMM because he's talking about young retirement. Who chooses not working for a couple extra years over sending their kid to college? It's especially rich given his posts about Raising Children Properly (TM).
Uh, no. Laughably, no. Canadian schools do charge tuition, and it's expensive. Maybe not as crazy as some schools in the US, but comparable to moderate State Universities in the US. When I attended school in the late 90's, tuition was $5/6k, plus another $1k for books. This is for in-province costs. For out of province, double it. For out of country students, quadruple or quintuple it.
So, less than private schools in the US. And, less than some state schools in the US. But hardly "cheap" or "free".
I've maintained my Canadian citizenship. And I can pass along my citizenship to any kids I might have. But, any children I have would still have to pay out-of-country fees until they have resided in Canada for a certain amount of time (not sure how long, but let's estimate it at 2 years).
I watched a few episodes of The Wire and just couldn't get into it. [[ducks]]
(Note: I don't doubt it is a good show -- just couldn't grab me)
Ditto. And we live in Baltimore so we really wanted to get into it. H got up to season 2 or 3, but then it lost him. He like the season about the ports.
See, we haven't watched because we live here. We are tired of when we say where we are from, everyone says "Like The Wire!". Even in Europe! Silly reason, I know. We will probably breakdown and watch it eventually.
Ditto. And we live in Baltimore so we really wanted to get into it. H got up to season 2 or 3, but then it lost him. He like the season about the ports.
This is even more confusing than the people who like Tarek and Christina more than Chip and Joanna in the flipping thread. I just don't even understand the words being used right now lol.
Like I said to shoegal - I get it. Sometimes we need to hear some harsh realities to take a moment to evaluate some things. I don't mind that people told me to take some time to examine my feelings on a certain topic. But some people said some really harsh things to me personally about how my comments changed their perception of me as a poster. And yes, while I get that, that is hard to hear when you have been posting on a goddamn board for 8+ years. and then it is more annoying when some people recently posted about the issue, dared me to comment, and then when I did, didn't even take the time to respond which IMO was rude. But whatever, its a message board, people are going to do what they want. And I'll just continue posting over there while MM dies a slow and painful death even if they don't want to participate in my threads.
Remember when MM used to talk about non money current events? I loved that. I wish it was still like that. I screwed up recently, interloping in a thread I recognized after I didn't belong, and what was said back to me as punishment for that, well, I'm just not interested in posting anymore, which I'm sure is fine with many, since I had immediate enmity after starting posting there. And most of you know what happened when I made an ill received joke about something on ML. I didn't think anyone was cruel to Shoe, she's not a troll, which I think was the harshest thing said. She'll stick around and I'm glad. Who else will page me into POTUS video lovefests?
I think what happened to this board is that to a point, GBCN became one big board. Most people still mostly post on their home board, but a lot of people cross over a lot. So those of us who are interested in current events just head over to CEP when we want to read about that stuff. I don't always post (because I don't feel like I'm as well informed as many of the posters there, and don't want to get flamed) but I read there daily. It seems like a lot of former MM posters do the same.