Flame free racial thread.

[Deleted]

Sept 1, 2016 12:50:35 GMT -5 aspentosh said:

Sept 1, 2016 12:43:26 GMT -5 @savestheday said:

I thought 246baje bumped this so we would continue to have further conversations. I understand that shit is still happening a year later. People will continue to suck until the end of time. It's just maybe by now we could suck.. ya know... less? 

Baje bumped it to show the the women on this board have tried and have been trying for a VERY long time to help us. They've done what we asked of them (give help when we asked, been "calm" instead of "rage-y") etc and it still isn't improving.

Yeah I get that now. I didn't get it when it was bumped because I was confused. 

[luckyno7]

Sept 1, 2016 13:30:40 GMT -5 smock said:

Look, if you think a possible solution to racism is "just be friends with everyone regardless of race!" then you really don't understand racism at all.

I know this isn't the answer. The solution seems so large. I am going to assume that some on the answers to this question is in the thread. I will go back and read. I wish there was an easy answer. I know there isn't.

[heyjude]

I want to appologize, as a white person, for all the stupid things white people say, including in this thread. We should be held accountable for the stupid comments that our brethren post. Including, but not limited to "I don't have to apologize for Trump and no POC should have to appologize either" and "I didn't see color as a child."

Back to lurking and head desk banging.

[heyjude]

Sept 1, 2016 8:39:47 GMT -5 genet313 said:

Sept 1, 2016 7:00:09 GMT -5 anna7602 said:

Do white people feel like they need to apologize for Trump as often as I felt like I needed to apologize for Marco Rubio and Ted Cruz during the primaries? 

Not remotely.   One ignorant asshole does not define all white people.   But I've also never attributed Rubio and Cruz's political positions to their being Hispanic.   Maybe I can attribute their pro-life stances to also being Catholic. But, as a pro-choice Catholic myself I can understand their position given my upbringing and it doesn't make me apologetic as a Catholic.

This response is really bothering me.

You don't feel responsible for Trump because you benefit from white privilege that insulates you from the ass holery of other white people in a way that does not exist for people of color.

And here is some confetti for you for never attributing Rubio/Cruz to the Hispanic culture. But that's not the reality for many POC and the white people they encounter on a daily basis. So good for you, but do better.

[rugbywife]

I think we (white people) need to type less and read more in this thread. And in general. Period.

[heyjude]

And just because you don't think POC "should" be held responsible for the actions of other people of color doesn't mean they aren't by society at large. These thoughts are meaningless and not helpful. And I say this as someone who had similar thoughts at one point in time.

[luckyno7]

@mrswindycity elleblue smock hopecounts pizzanight chickens987 bex Poppy

This is the last I plan to write in this thread as I plan to go back and read. I'm genuinely sorry. You have made me see the errors of my thinking which honestly, I would not had seen had I not wrote my post. I have read posts in the past and thought I understood the problem. I didn't. For this I thank you. I plan to read more regarding these issues with a different mind. Without reading any additional posts I have already learned a lot today about myself. I will educate myself better.

[rugbywife]

Sept 1, 2016 14:36:31 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

Sept 1, 2016 12:36:38 GMT -5 @savestheday said:

Not only is he a Xenophobic, Abusive, Racist, Bigoted, Bully,Misogynist,Thief, Liar, Rapist.... he is also somehow charismatic enough to get a BUNCH of people to overlook those facts. 

I think the bigger issue is that people are NOT overlooking those facts. They hear them and are applauding him. People like him because "he speaks the truth." That so many people think his words are the truth and worthy of praise (and votes) is, while not a suprise to me, completely horrifying. 

eta: well maybe not the bigger issue, because both things are real problems. But I think more people are hearing and rewarding vs overlooking. 

Actually, this isn't my biggest concern with him. Those people are idiots who are supporting an idiot.  My biggest issue is with people who say they know he is all those things but the don't want Hilary. WTF.  Okay, so Hilary is worse than a.. Xenophobic, Abusive, Racist, Bigoted, Bully,Misogynist,Thief, Liar, Rapist...you are willing to chose that over her? I mean, really, your priorities are FUCKED if that is the case. I don't care how much you hate her, you vote for her because he can't ever be the president. EVER. 

[CheeringCharm]

Sept 1, 2016 14:36:31 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

Sept 1, 2016 12:36:38 GMT -5 @savestheday said:

Not only is he a Xenophobic, Abusive, Racist, Bigoted, Bully,Misogynist,Thief, Liar, Rapist.... he is also somehow charismatic enough to get a BUNCH of people to overlook those facts. 

I think the bigger issue is that people are NOT overlooking those facts. They hear them and are applauding him. People like him because "he speaks the truth." That so many people think his words are the truth and worthy of praise (and votes) is, while not a suprise to me, completely horrifying. 

eta: well maybe not the bigger issue, because both things are real problems. But I think more people are hearing and rewarding vs overlooking. 

I think this is closer to what is happening too. People are choosing to support him, not in spite of the fact that he has an established history of saying racist, bigoted, and misogynist things but because he says those things. He validates their inner feelings. And I agree that what is happening in this election and what he is releasing is completely horrifying.

[osulori]

Sept 1, 2016 14:49:10 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

Sept 1, 2016 14:36:31 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

I think the bigger issue is that people are NOT overlooking those facts. They hear them and are applauding him. People like him because "he speaks the truth." That so many people think his words are the truth and worthy of praise (and votes) is, while not a suprise to me, completely horrifying. 

eta: well maybe not the bigger issue, because both things are real problems. But I think more people are hearing and rewarding vs overlooking. 

Actually, this isn't my biggest concern with him. Those people are idiots who are supporting an idiot.  My biggest issue is with people who say they know he is all those things but the don't want Hilary. WTF.  Okay, so Hilary is worse than a.. Xenophobic, Abusive, Racist, Bigoted, Bully,Misogynist,Thief, Liar, Rapist...you are willing to chose that over her? I mean, really, your priorities are FUCKED if that is the case. I don't care how much you hate her, you vote for her because he can't ever be the president. EVER. 

This is where I'm at.  How in the hell anyone can think that Trump would actually be a good president is beyond me...don't agree with Hillary's political philosophies or the decisions she made? Fine.  But how can you see Trump and the hate he spews at any group that's not a rich white male as a better choice?

[rugbywife]

Sept 1, 2016 14:58:15 GMT -5 osulori said:

Sept 1, 2016 14:49:10 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

Actually, this isn't my biggest concern with him. Those people are idiots who are supporting an idiot.  My biggest issue is with people who say they know he is all those things but the don't want Hilary. WTF.  Okay, so Hilary is worse than a.. Xenophobic, Abusive, Racist, Bigoted, Bully,Misogynist,Thief, Liar, Rapist...you are willing to chose that over her? I mean, really, your priorities are FUCKED if that is the case. I don't care how much you hate her, you vote for her because he can't ever be the president. EVER. 

This is where I'm at.  How in the hell anyone can think that Trump would actually be a good president is beyond me...don't agree with Hillary's political philosophies or the decisions she made? Fine.  But how can you see Trump and the hate he spews at any group that's not a rich white male as a better choice?

Honestly? I think it is mostly R's who refuse to vote for a Dem. It's gross they would sooner allow Trump into power than recognize that their party has seriously let them down and that they need to do what is right.

[osulori]

Sept 1, 2016 15:04:36 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

Sept 1, 2016 14:58:15 GMT -5 osulori said:

This is where I'm at.  How in the hell anyone can think that Trump would actually be a good president is beyond me...don't agree with Hillary's political philosophies or the decisions she made? Fine.  But how can you see Trump and the hate he spews at any group that's not a rich white male as a better choice?

Honestly? I think it is mostly R's who refuse to vote for a Dem. It's gross they would sooner allow Trump into power than recognize that their party has seriously let them down and that they need to do what is right.

I think you're right.  It's so wrong on so many levels, and people don't care because "well, he's got to be better than Hillary right?"  No no no way in hell.

[chickens987]

Sept 1, 2016 15:54:58 GMT -5 sxia said:

Aug 31, 2016 21:07:57 GMT -5 @barefootbarista said:

I wonder if sxia is wearing her Redskins shirt this yr.

sxia , you never came back to answer your own questions-do you find those symbols and mascots racist?

I still have the shirt but do not wear it.
When I did wear it (years ago) my friend asked me what the difference was between the term "Redskins" and the N word. I'm not sure there is one, so there you go.
I guess it is racist, but I never thought about it that way or thought the term wasn't being used in a perjorative sense when it was the football team.

I obviously grew up with it -- singing "Hail to the Redskins" in elementary school, etc. So I'm sure that a lot of my point of view comes with a lot of normalization of a derogatory term.
I do wonder if just using a Native American as a mascot (Chiefs, etc) is also racist. I don't think so, as long as it's not made fun of or stereotyped. 
(keeping the shirt to use as a pattern so I can tailor and adjust other shirts to a similar fit.)

Yes, it is.

[nessness]

Would calling a team "the black people" be racist? Of course (please tell me that's an "of course"). So why wouldn't it be racist to call a team the Chiefs or the Indians or whatever, especially when accompanied by a stereotypical image of a Native American?

[osulori]

Sept 1, 2016 16:10:14 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

Yes, it is. I wish FSU would change their mascott and stop doing that dumbass war chant, but they never will.

Seriously.  My dad has been all over teaching AJ the war chant because my sister works with the football team, and I've been trying to shut that shit down every time he does it around me.  He's recently been better about using his other FSU chant (Florida State, Florida State, Florida State WOOOO...not sure if that's a widespread cheer or something my parents made up) when AJ and I are around so it's a start.

[Deleted]

Sept 1, 2016 14:36:31 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

Sept 1, 2016 12:36:38 GMT -5 @savestheday said:

Not only is he a Xenophobic, Abusive, Racist, Bigoted, Bully,Misogynist,Thief, Liar, Rapist.... he is also somehow charismatic enough to get a BUNCH of people to overlook those facts. 

I think the bigger issue is that people are NOT overlooking those facts. They hear them and are applauding him. People like him because "he speaks the truth." That so many people think his words are the truth and worthy of praise (and votes) is, while not a suprise to me, completely horrifying. 

eta: well maybe not the bigger issue, because both things are real problems. But I think more people are hearing and rewarding vs overlooking. 

I haven't met this trump supporter YET. I mean I know they exist, but the ones I have met so far have been the " turn a blind eye to everything because the liberal media & Hillary & emails" type.

Equally as awful.

[Deleted]

Does it make any difference at all that FSU is using Seminoles as a mascot with the permission and support of the Seminole tribe?

Edited to correct grammatical error.

[chickens987]

Sept 1, 2016 16:26:11 GMT -5 sxia said:

So Minnesota Vikings is racist? Fighting Irish?
"Redskin" is a perjorative term. Chief is not. It's the leader of the tribe, right?
Is it only racist if it's a minority?

Vancouver Canucks (NHL)
The England Saxons
Houston Texans
Brooklyn Italians

It's racist if it's a group in a position of power co-opting an ethnic term or group for their own purposes.

And yes, the "fighting Irish" mascot of a leprechaun is offensive.

[anna7602]

Sept 1, 2016 16:10:14 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

Yes, it is. I wish FSU would change their mascott and stop doing that dumbass war chant, but they never will.

I wish this about commercial products, like Hatuey beer, now brewed in the U.S. it seems, but with no other realization that it's 2016: www.realbeer.com/nmvbp/rev_hatu.htm

[Deleted]

Sept 1, 2016 16:30:39 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

Sept 1, 2016 16:24:52 GMT -5 @autiger said:

Does it make any difference at all that FSU is using Seminoles as a mascot with the permission and support of the Seminole tribe?

Edited to correct grammatical error.

I didn't realize this. I don't know. It's still embarrassing. I mean we're a bunch of non Native-Americans painting our faces and chanting and putting someone on a horse dressed as Osceola.

Yeah.  And oddly enough, the Seminole tribe supports the use of those symbols as well, according to what I read here:

www.fsu.edu/news/2005/06/17/seminole.support/

Granted, this was 2005, but I don't see anything that overturns that either.  

[osulori]

Sept 1, 2016 16:32:18 GMT -5 @autiger said:

Sept 1, 2016 16:30:39 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

I didn't realize this. I don't know. It's still embarrassing. I mean we're a bunch of non Native-Americans painting our faces and chanting and putting someone on a horse dressed as Osceola.

Yeah.  And oddly enough, the Seminole tribe supports the use of those symbols as well, according to what I read here:

www.fsu.edu/news/2005/06/17/seminole.support/

Granted, this was 2005, but I don't see anything that overturns that either.  

@tambcat, I didn't realize that either but I'm with you...it's embarrassing.

[Deleted]

I'm not trying to attack anyone with that information - I'm genuinely curious. Does the conversation change if the mascot is being used with the permission of the people it represents?

[Deleted]

Sept 1, 2016 16:31:25 GMT -5 sxia said:

Someone please take the "flame free" title off this thread. Bye.

When this thread was revived it was done so to show that a year has passed since this flame free discussion had occurred and essentially nothing had changed. I believe the intent was to say, hey look people we did our part to help educate you and we are done. So, naturally, I would expect the tolerance and desire to allow a "protected flame free" post is long gone at this point. Particularly, when this question appears to be a revival of one posed a year ago and you appear to have shown zero growth on the topic during that time.

[rugbywife]

Sept 1, 2016 16:29:04 GMT -5 @barefootbarista said:

Sept 1, 2016 16:26:11 GMT -5 sxia said:

So Minnesota Vikings is racist? Fighting Irish?
"Redskin" is a perjorative term. Chief is not. It's the leader of the tribe, right?
Is it only racist if it's a minority?

Vancouver Canucks (NHL)
The England Saxons
Houston Texans
Brooklyn Italians

YES.  

It is not okay to use representations (names, visuals, etc) of a marginalized group.  SAXONS ARE NOT FUCKING MARGINALIZED.  

Chief is a term that YES, can be used to describe the leader of a tribe. It is also COMMONLY used in a pejorative fashion.

[nessness]

Sept 1, 2016 16:31:25 GMT -5 sxia said:

Someone please take the "flame free" title off this thread. Bye.

You asked if something was racist; people said yes. That's hardly a flaming.

And to answer your question about Vikings, there is a long history of discrimination against Native Americans in America, continuing to this day. There is no history of discrimination against Vikings. Racism by definition involves a power differential.

[satsuma]

Sept 1, 2016 16:50:27 GMT -5 sxia said:

Sept 1, 2016 16:33:39 GMT -5 @barefootbarista said:

Don't let the door hit ya! You seriously didn't come for real conversation. In 2016, you know that shit is racist, without question. You wanted to let everyone know that you are ok with some racist stuff, because "don't take my beloved shirt I look hot in! I grew up with the fight song".

Says the woman who OWNS seasons tickets and monetarily benefits from the team.
I think you're the one who has a lot more tied up in it than a T-shirt.

I actually did come here for real conversation. I own my stupid past on the Washington Redskins that I had a $30 tshirt for and have never attended a game and you own season tickets for and make money off of.

I'm honestly wondering why Vikings is okay. (At least it's okay by me, and I'm Norwegian by heritage) and others aren't?

Well for starters, the Vikings ceased to exist about 1000 years ago. There's no appropriating of an existing culture. And it also absolutely makes a difference that Scandinavians have never been marginalized in the US, and especially not in Minnesota (which rugbywife has already covered).

[rugbywife]

I had this sudden realization that a lot of people have no fucking clue what the word marginalized means. FML.

[chickens987]

Sept 1, 2016 16:50:27 GMT -5 sxia said:

Sept 1, 2016 16:33:39 GMT -5 @barefootbarista said:

Don't let the door hit ya! You seriously didn't come for real conversation. In 2016, you know that shit is racist, without question. You wanted to let everyone know that you are ok with some racist stuff, because "don't take my beloved shirt I look hot in! I grew up with the fight song".

Says the woman who OWNS seasons tickets and monetarily benefits from the team.
I think you're the one who has a lot more tied up in it than a T-shirt.

I actually did come here for real conversation. I own my stupid past on the Washington Redskins that I had a $30 tshirt for and have never attended a game and you own season tickets for and make money off of.

I'm honestly wondering why Vikings is okay. (At least it's okay by me, and I'm Norwegian by heritage) and others aren't?

If you want to learn, try google: www.thegazette.com/2013/03/17/why-braves-are-racist-and-vikings-are-not

[bex]

I also think, for DC, there is something especially bad about using the term Redskins. It's like, "hey we're the city that tried to wipe out all native Americans, but we want to use you for our football team!"

And then the fight song....."fight for old DC"....yeah NAs, fight for old DC! (I realize that's not a strict interpretation of it but STILL).

[rugbywife]

Here: 

Also, to prove that people SHOULD know what it means...