Flame free racial thread.

[Deleted]

Sept 1, 2016 16:52:44 GMT -5 @chloe77 said:

never mind, deleted.  it's a real question and this thread has obviously taken a turn. 

I saw your question and I'll just say that yes, 1000% yes, you need to have real and frank discussions with her about race. Children naturally notice that people are different from them. What they don't naturally understand is the constant bias they will be exposed to in the media and society at large. It is our job to educate our children about race and that means having constant, ongoing, and somwtinws uncomfortable conversations with our children about race/racism/microagressions/biases/white privilege etc so that they can grow up to be decent human beings who strive to be an ally to the POC and minorities.

There have been a million sources posted in other threads the last couple of days. Those would be a good place to start as far as how to go about doing this.

[bluelikejazz]

Sept 1, 2016 16:44:43 GMT -5 @barefootbarista said:

Sept 1, 2016 16:41:59 GMT -5 @autiger said:

I'm not trying to attack anyone with that information - I'm genuinely curious. Does the conversation change if the mascot is being used with the permission of the people it represents?

No. Some people don't speak for all people. I guarantee that not every member of the nation is happy about it or ok.

Thank you for responding.  I had the same question @autiger asked.  My HS mascot was the "Warriors" and the school had a relationship with the local Arapaho tribe.  Their tribal artist designed the logo, and the tribe would come every 2 years and share their culture with us in a prep-rally type event.  While this specific tribal Chief and tribe had given permission, I realize they don't speak for all tribes.

Back to reading and learning.

[redheadk]

Sept 1, 2016 16:31:25 GMT -5 sxia said:

Someone please take the "flame free" title off this thread. Bye.

Flame free assumes that you are going to come in with thoughtful questions, not continue to ask tone-deaf questions while desperately clinging to willful ignorance. Seriously, it's like you are TRYING to be obtuse. 

[bex]

My HS mascot was the Indians. It made sense in a way because our school name was literally IND (I'll DD this so PDQ) so INDian was how we referred to ourselves, like someone from Boston is a Bostonian.

But when it's spoken you say I-N-D-Ian, you don't say "Indian." But anyway so our mascot for years was an Indian. By the time I was in HS it was the penguin (bc of the nuns lol) but we still had a HS senior dress up as an Indian for pep rallies and such.

It was pretty gross. Even then I realized it. So we knew enough to not have it as our official mascot but we would still have a girl dress up with a headdress.

[belovedbride07]

Sept 1, 2016 12:25:31 GMT -5 Poppy said:

Just like the other post is no longer about cute kids, this is no longer a flame free racial thread.

As @246baje already said, the point of bumping was to demonstrate that it's been over a year, the WOC here have already tried the patient and gentle approach even though that's not their responsibility, and we're still promising to do better but it's looking pretty insincere.

Thank you for pointing this out. I misinterpreted what was happening here, and I apologize.

Regardless, thank you for responding to my question, @dontcallmeshirley1 and bex (and I swear there was a third, but I just scrolled through three times and can't find it). I've seen my question discussed in a couple other threads as well, and I've been thinking about it.

[redheadk]

Sept 1, 2016 17:18:08 GMT -5 sxia said:

Sept 1, 2016 17:02:38 GMT -5 nessness said:

You asked if something was racist; people said yes. That's hardly a flaming.

And to answer your question about Vikings, there is a long history of discrimination against Native Americans in America, continuing to this day. There is no history of discrimination against Vikings. Racism by definition involves a power differential.

I was more talking about the "dont be so simple and dull." And Lolligoespop swearing.

She asked a question, I answered politely, she decided to swear back. 
And there IS a history of discrimination against Irish, though not as much to this day.

I thought racism just meant judging someone based on race, no matter what power may be inferred.
Unfortunately, I have to go, but will read the link posted above. 

1) People (myself included) swear on this board. It's a red herring to be all "but then she CUSSED at me!!!!111!" 
2) Are you seriously comparing the discrimination against Irish to discrimination against black people in the U.S.? Because, NO. 

I am by no means an expert on racism but come the fuck on with this nonsense. 

[lo]

I mean, comparing Vikings to Redskins is pretty simple. There really is no comparison.

[rugbywife]

Sept 1, 2016 17:18:08 GMT -5 sxia said:

Sept 1, 2016 17:02:38 GMT -5 nessness said:

You asked if something was racist; people said yes. That's hardly a flaming.

And to answer your question about Vikings, there is a long history of discrimination against Native Americans in America, continuing to this day. There is no history of discrimination against Vikings. Racism by definition involves a power differential.

I was more talking about the "dont be so simple and dull." And Lolligoespop swearing.

She asked a question, I answered politely, she decided to swear back. 
And there IS a history of discrimination against Irish, though not as much to this day.

I thought racism just meant judging someone based on race, no matter what power may be inferred.
Unfortunately, I have to go, but will read the link posted above. 

The power relationship is the key to systemic racism. It is what makes racism, racism. This is why reverse racism doesn't exist, because white people are in a position of power. 

[boxertdog]

Sept 1, 2016 17:18:08 GMT -5 sxia said:

Sept 1, 2016 17:02:38 GMT -5 nessness said:

You asked if something was racist; people said yes. That's hardly a flaming.

And to answer your question about Vikings, there is a long history of discrimination against Native Americans in America, continuing to this day. There is no history of discrimination against Vikings. Racism by definition involves a power differential.

I was more talking about the "dont be so simple and dull." And Lolligoespop swearing.

She asked a question, I answered politely, she decided to swear back. 
And there IS a history of discrimination against Irish, though not as much to this day.

I thought racism just meant judging someone based on race, no matter what power may be inferred.
Unfortunately, I have to go, but will read the link posted above. 

The Southern Poverty Law Center has classified arguments regarding "Irish Slavery", "white lives matter" as hate speech. These are arguments made by neo-nazis. Don't make them.

[rugbywife]

Sept 1, 2016 17:41:15 GMT -5 @littlemoxie said:

So much stupidity and false comparisons, the least of which is that Irish aren't Vikings. Yes, they descend from them, but by the time Irish were emigrating to the US, there was a clear distinction.

I don't think she was conflating the two, I think she mentioned the Irish in a previous post. 

[Deleted]

Sept 1, 2016 16:44:43 GMT -5 @barefootbarista said:

Sept 1, 2016 16:41:59 GMT -5 @autiger said:

I'm not trying to attack anyone with that information - I'm genuinely curious. Does the conversation change if the mascot is being used with the permission of the people it represents?

No. Some people don't speak for all people. I guarantee that not every member of the nation is happy about it or ok.

Good point. Thanks for answering my question.

[pixy0stix]

Look, I don't go here, but OMFG! Why do all the basic bitches want to talk about the IRISH! NO ONE CARES ABOUT THE FUCKING IRISH.

(Rant based on the last few posts I read. I don't know what precipitated this and I don't really care.)

[heyjude]

Sept 1, 2016 16:50:27 GMT -5 sxia said:

Sept 1, 2016 16:33:39 GMT -5 @barefootbarista said:

Don't let the door hit ya! You seriously didn't come for real conversation. In 2016, you know that shit is racist, without question. You wanted to let everyone know that you are ok with some racist stuff, because "don't take my beloved shirt I look hot in! I grew up with the fight song".

Says the woman who OWNS seasons tickets and monetarily benefits from the team.
I think you're the one who has a lot more tied up in it than a T-shirt.

I actually did come here for real conversation. I own my stupid past on the Washington Redskins that I had a $30 tshirt for and have never attended a game and you own season tickets for and make money off of.

I'm honestly wondering why Vikings is okay. (At least it's okay by me, and I'm Norwegian by heritage) and others aren't?

White people naming their team after other white people? Meh. White people naming their team after an ethnic minority? No.

It's really simple.

[chickens987]

People: if you have a question like "is viking an offensive mascot?" GOOGLE IT. it's pretty easy. The fact that you don't, sxia, indicates to me that you're not really trying to educate yourself.

[anna7602]

sxia , re @barefootbarista swearing, I would refer you to the post that explains "white fragility" and this part in particular: 


In my workshops, one of the things I like to ask white people is, “What are the rules for how people of color should give us feedback about our racism? What are the rules, where did you get them, and whom do they serve?” Usually those questions alone make the point.




It’s like if you’re standing on my head and I say, “Get off my head,” and you respond, “Well, you need to tell me nicely.” I’d be like, “No. Fuck you. Get off my fucking head.”



Read more: pandce.proboards.com/thread/550240/race-white-fragility#ixzz4J3EKXzN0

[TamiTaylor]

Sept 1, 2016 16:26:11 GMT -5 sxia said:

So Minnesota Vikings is racist? Fighting Irish?
"Redskin" is a perjorative term. Chief is not. It's the leader of the tribe, right?
Is it only racist if it's a minority?

Vancouver Canucks (NHL)
The England Saxons
Houston Texans
Brooklyn Italians

My head has exploded.

[TamiTaylor]

Sept 1, 2016 16:31:25 GMT -5 sxia said:

Someone please take the "flame free" title off this thread. Bye.

Wtf

[Velar Fricative]

Example #4936983298 why POC are frustrated as hell. They can't talk about unjust treatment towards them without white people being like, "Yeah but, the Irish were discriminated against too sooooooo...." NOT THE SAME. So many people automatically devalue any complaint that a POC has.

[TamiTaylor]

Sept 1, 2016 16:50:27 GMT -5 sxia said:

Sept 1, 2016 16:33:39 GMT -5 @barefootbarista said:

Don't let the door hit ya! You seriously didn't come for real conversation. In 2016, you know that shit is racist, without question. You wanted to let everyone know that you are ok with some racist stuff, because "don't take my beloved shirt I look hot in! I grew up with the fight song".

Says the woman who OWNS seasons tickets and monetarily benefits from the team.
I think you're the one who has a lot more tied up in it than a T-shirt.

I actually did come here for real conversation. I own my stupid past on the Washington Redskins that I had a $30 tshirt for and have never attended a game and you own season tickets for and make money off of.

I'm honestly wondering why Vikings is okay. (At least it's okay by me, and I'm Norwegian by heritage) and others aren't?

I don't know why I keep reading this. Seriously wtf.

[TamiTaylor]

Sept 1, 2016 17:06:24 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

I had this sudden realization that a lot of people have no fucking clue what the word marginalized means. FML.

By the end of every school year my 5th graders do. After I teach my tolerance unit. Some people are just not smarter than a 5th grader.

[TamiTaylor]

Sept 1, 2016 17:18:08 GMT -5 sxia said:

Sept 1, 2016 17:02:38 GMT -5 nessness said:

You asked if something was racist; people said yes. That's hardly a flaming.

And to answer your question about Vikings, there is a long history of discrimination against Native Americans in America, continuing to this day. There is no history of discrimination against Vikings. Racism by definition involves a power differential.

I was more talking about the "dont be so simple and dull." And Lolligoespop swearing.

She asked a question, I answered politely, she decided to swear back. 
And there IS a history of discrimination against Irish, though not as much to this day.

I thought racism just meant judging someone based on race, no matter what power may be inferred.
Unfortunately, I have to go, but will read the link posted above. 

Why do you keep getting worse?

[bex]

TamiTaylor this whole thing has just been worse and worse. Black on black crime, the Irish, the fucking Vikings.



VIKINGS.

[rugbywife]

Let's all cry for those poor Vikings who have been so mistreated. 

[anna7602]

@littlemoxie, should we be outraged by the mascot for our shared alma mater? Those revolutionary-era wigs are surely making dead white men turn in their graves. 

[TamiTaylor]

Sept 1, 2016 20:03:55 GMT -5 bex said:

TamiTaylor this whole thing has just been worse and worse. Black on black crime, the Irish, the fucking Vikings.



VIKINGS.

I am at a loss. Just who the duck comes up with this garbage and then actually says it. And then doubles down and then wants to get pissy that someone cussed. Like WHAT THE FUCK. SERIOUSLY WHAT THE FUCK.

[redheadk]

Sept 1, 2016 20:21:47 GMT -5 anna7602 said:

@littlemoxie , should we be outraged by the mascot for our shared alma mater? Those revolutionary-era wigs are surely making dead white men turn in their graves. 

And what about the Houston TEXANS? I'm perplexed.

[karinothing]

Well wow I really don't know what to say to all of this. People are just dumb.

[anna7602]

Sept 1, 2016 20:27:50 GMT -5 redheadk said:

Sept 1, 2016 20:21:47 GMT -5 anna7602 said:

@littlemoxie , should we be outraged by the mascot for our shared alma mater? Those revolutionary-era wigs are surely making dead white men turn in their graves. 

And what about the Houston TEXANS? I'm perplexed.

Well Texas was technically part of Mexico at one point, so using the Viking/Irish analogy, you're dishonoring Mexicans. Or something. Or wait, NO, that's just gibberish! 

[rugbywife]

Also, I know this is my Canadian showing...but holy fuck, it's a sports team. HOW THE FUCK CAN YOU THAT ATTACHED TO A NAME/LOGO??

[satsuma]

The whole Irish thing reminded me of a book - The History of White People. One of the things it discusses is the expansions (and there were multiple) of what it meant to be white, especially in America.