it should come as no surprise that I disagree wholeheartedly. Well, maybe halfheartedly because I like you a lot, and you're certainly not wrong to feel this way. I think we could do with less dialogue and conversation and more calling folks out. The right to respectful discourse was forfeited a long time ago, and people should know it. Doesn't mean it can't take place, but it's not deserved. And now I'll stop cluttering up your board with my rants! Carry on!
Somehow, I agree with you both. I am trying to do better with my temper, so I had to step away from this thread because I was 45 hot. Would it feel good to say those two posters are stupid fucking assholes? Why, yes, it does, mostly because it's true. Is it productive? Of course not. Does it advance the cause or even the conversation? No. I do think when you put the blame for the death of a child on the child or the parents of the child, rather than the person who murdered him, you're not looking for productive conversation. But is it possible to be rational, logical, and amenable enough, yet still passionate enough to truly engage someone who doesn't even want to be engaged? I think so. I know I'm not able, not even on my best day even when my steps are being ordered, but I do believe there are people who are capable. They are the ones who should try.
Some days I have patience to engage. Today is not one of those days. Or maybe it's that I believe some people just can't be reasoned with, potato, potatoh.
it should come as no surprise that I disagree wholeheartedly. Well, maybe halfheartedly because I like you a lot, and you're certainly not wrong to feel this way. I think we could do with less dialogue and conversation and more calling folks out. The right to respectful discourse was forfeited a long time ago, and people should know it. Doesn't mean it can't take place, but it's not deserved. And now I'll stop cluttering up your board with my rants! Carry on!
Somehow, I agree with you both. I am trying to do better with my temper, so I had to step away from this thread because I was 45 hot. Would it feel good to say those two posters are stupid fucking assholes? Why, yes, it does, mostly because it's true. Is it productive? Of course not. Does it advance the cause or even the conversation? No. I do think when you put the blame for the death of a child on the child or the parents of the child, rather than the person who murdered him, you're not looking for productive conversation. But is it possible to be rational, logical, and amenable enough, yet still passionate enough to truly engage someone who doesn't even want to be engaged? I think so. I know I'm not able, not even on my best day even when my steps are being ordered, but I do believe there are people who are capable. They are the ones who should try.
I think I get this. Sometimes I want to educate others or think that if they can see the humanity in me, maybe they'll get that black people aren't less than/scary/angry/mutant/evil/criminal (although typically what that has gotten me is "see, you aren't like the other black people...") But sometimes I want a place to wail and vent and voice the anger and frustration without having to educate any damn body. It shouldn't have to be our job as POC to educate others, but it becomes our job if we want to be understood. We shouldn't have to reign in our emotions in order to have our viewpoints seen as valid. I shouldn't have to tell my daughter that talking back might get her thrown across a classroom or locked up in jail; I shouldn't have to tell my nephews to set aside that bravado and sense of invincibility that comes with being a child, but I do if I want them to survive this world we live in. Civility as a standard of acceptable discourse is reserved for certain people (I don't mean this on this board b\c by and large, you are all civil)-but in society. It's seen as acceptable by some large subset of the American population for Donald Trump to behave the way he does. But heaven help us if HRC or Barack Obama, or hell, even Marco Rubio started in on those shenanigans.
Sometimes I'm just tired of the burden of educating others. I love lurking and reading this board, but at the same time, I don't know how y'all do it day in and day out.
Some years ago my teen aged white son was playing air-soft, with his church youth group, in the rural town we lived in. One of the church members owned the local movie theater, and the kids were allowed on the building. My son was on the roof of the building with his air soft gun when the local police arrived. He told me later that he vaguely registered hearing them say something like, "Drop the gun. Hands up", but thought some of the opponents were calling out, and ignored them. It suddenly registered that this was serious when one of them yelled, "Freeze! Police!", at which he dropped the gun and lifted his hands. My point is that when you're a kid in the moment of the game, things don't always register immediately. When I think about that incident, I feel guilty for being relieved that he's white.
Post by mrsukyankee on Dec 30, 2015 2:46:35 GMT -5
And somehow, these children did not die. This is on google street view. Two kids with guns trained on another kid. Were they playing? Most likely, because that's how kids play with guns (fake ones). Should the police gone up in a police car and shot them within 2 seconds? No. Nor should Tamir Rice have died in the way he did. He was given no chance to live. None.
From the FB page of Dr. Stacey Patton. I just found it via a commenter on Connie Schultz FB page. She has some powerful words on her page.
An editor emailed me just a few minutes ago to ask if I'd write a 1200-word reaction to the Tamir Rice decision. I said no.
I'm tired of explaining the same racist shit over and over again knowing that more of us are going to die a death-by-scared cop. Tired of reaching into the archives to show historical precedence for the current remixed ideologies and 400-year-old sadism.
Sometimes I feel like being able to explain this madness gets coopted into the racial spectacle: Kill another black person. People get angry and march. Watch the funeral on TV. No indictment. More anger and marching.
"Let's find a negro academic or journalist or culture critic who can help us decipher all this inelegant rage because we are totally ignorant about structural racism and the psychosis of white supremacy. We're colorblind after all. Oh, isn't she so articulate? We got 400,000 hits on that piece. Here's $300, we hope you'll write for us again.... the next time one of you blacks gets killed."
And then, for the next two weeks the trolls call her an "angry black nigga hoe bitch," and they say "what about black-on-black crime?" and "check these statistics on black crime that I cut and pasted from whitesplaining dot com. Stop whining. And go back to Africa.... 'Doctor.'
They kill some of us and they love to argue with those of us who survive, like it is some kind of fetish. Like our lives and our fear are a damn game!
Like watching Black death on viral videos, seeing those of us who carry pens flip our souls inside out on the page to explain all this evil while slowly dying inside from the anger, loss, and grief, is another form of titillation for corporate media, even the ones that proclaim to be liberal. And the comment sections under our pieces become a fiber-optic altar upon which the scourge of white America can ejaculate the worst parts of their souls.
Not this time. I will NOT be your intellectual Mammy. I's real tired.
Did his fake gun have the orange tip? That seems to be a point that isn't brought up. I do think the officers put themselves in a position of disadvantage that caused the situation to only last the two seconds it. Ohio being an open carry state, isn't Tamir concealing the gun when it's in his waistband? Then that is concealed carry. I don't think the point of open carry is to wave it around in a park either.
You can call me racist and an asshole all you want, I don't really care. It doesn't help you cause.
People have said it here before that the reason they don't engage when they have a dissenting position is because conversation doesn't happen. It breaks down, becomes hostile, and those select few won't engage. It must be great for you all to surround yourselves with people that have the same views as you. And for the poster that stated that they want to have a discussion without emotions being attached to it, I'm all for that. I'm pretty sure that comment should have been for the board and not the two posters here that had a different view.
Post by cookiemdough on Dec 30, 2015 6:52:51 GMT -5
You came in here hostile on a topic that is very sensitive. But I will try today.
With regards to your question about the orange tip how would they know given the timeframe of their actions? This is why you don't just roll up and start shooting.
Also you have had people very familiar with law enforcement procedures who have said the police officers actions was inconsistent with training and how such situations should be dealt with. How do you view those statements? Does their violation of protocol resonate with you?
Did his fake gun have the orange tip? That seems to be a point that isn't brought up. I do think the officers put themselves in a position of disadvantage that caused the situation to only last the two seconds it.
But, you say this like its a sidebar and it's not - it's the central, key issue here. Tamir Rice wasn't doing anything illegal. He wasn't even doing anything dangerous - he was playing with a toy in a park. Kids are allowed to do that in this country. He wasn't pointing the fake gun at anyone, he wasn't brandishing it or threatening anyone, he wasn't even playing with it at the moment the police arrived. His actions were not illegal and should not in any way have led to his death. The fault here lies *completely* on the two cops here, with maybe a bit of blame added to the dispatcher who failed to relay the information from the caller that the gun was "probably fake."
As far as the orange tip, toy guns are no longer required to have those. They can legally look identical to the real thing. The toy industry and the NRA banded together and lobbied to make that happen.
ETA I tend to give the police a lot of latitude because I know how difficult their jobs are and how the public tends to misunderstand things. But I don't know how *anyone* - even the most die hard cop supporter - can watch that video and not be utterly horrified.
Did his fake gun have the orange tip? That seems to be a point that isn't brought up. I do think the officers put themselves in a position of disadvantage that caused the situation to only last the two seconds it. Ohio being an open carry state, isn't Tamir concealing the gun when it's in his waistband? Then that is concealed carry. I don't think the point of open carry is to wave it around in a park either.
You can call me racist and an asshole all you want, I don't really care. It doesn't help you cause.
People have said it here before that the reason they don't engage when they have a dissenting position is because conversation doesn't happen. It breaks down, becomes hostile, and those select few won't engage. It must be great for you all to surround yourselves with people that have the same views as you. And for the poster that stated that they want to have a discussion without emotions being attached to it, I'm all for that. I'm pretty sure that comment should have been for the board and not the two posters here that had a different view.
Bitch, fuck you. How's that for respect and discussion? You come in here guns a'blazin' with attitude waggling your finger about how you can't have a discussion with us, when you haven't bothered to have one with us prior to today. So fuck you. You can have your opinion. And it can be wrong. Have a better life.
I don't know why the bolded is making me LOL as much as it is. I think this is reminding me of your Momma when she was told to not smoke!!
It's interesting that ajm or whatever the name is has participated in 3 threads here in the last 2 years. One about Ferguson, one about friends/family of cops, and this one.
Please go educate yourself on open carry and concealed carry. You can't just go around saying someone was breaking the law because of what you *think* those things mean.
I have no issue with the officers thinking it was a real gun, but their actions make me doubt that they really did think it was real. Because unless you have some mental illness everyone has a desire to live. And pulling up to a person who you believe has a real gun that can fire deadly bullets at you when you do not have to is a suicide mission. If my partner pulled up on that scene like that, we would have been fighting in the car and never engaged Rice at all. Not only is it bad police tactics, it is bad human survival instincs.
Sent from my SM-G920V using proboards
Penny bless your heart for engaging and using your vast knowledge as a LEO to educate and inform.
I am very interested to see how the poster replies to Penny. This will indeed show if they really want to engage or just start shit.
It's interesting that ajm or whatever the name is has participated in 3 threads here in the last 2 years. One about Ferguson, one about friends/family of cops, and this one.
ORLY?
josieposy was one of those thread the one in which Tillie liked those ignant comments?
Did his fake gun have the orange tip? That seems to be a point that isn't brought up. I do think the officers put themselves in a position of disadvantage that caused the situation to only last the two seconds it. Ohio being an open carry state, isn't Tamir concealing the gun when it's in his waistband? Then that is concealed carry. I don't think the point of open carry is to wave it around in a park either.
You can call me racist and an asshole all you want, I don't really care. It doesn't help you cause.
People have said it here before that the reason they don't engage when they have a dissenting position is because conversation doesn't happen. It breaks down, becomes hostile, and those select few won't engage. It must be great for you all to surround yourselves with people that have the same views as you. And for the poster that stated that they want to have a discussion without emotions being attached to it, I'm all for that. I'm pretty sure that comment should have been for the board and not the two posters here that had a different view.
The orange tip, or lack thereof, has been brought up numerous times. Tamir didn't remove it. It was a friend's gun. The friend removed it. Tamir wouldn't have known one way or the other about orange tips and all that other stuff and nonsense. And THE POLICE ROLLED UP AND STARTED SHOOTING IMMEDIATELY. There was no opportunity to gauge whether he was a danger, whether the gun was a toy. They rolled up to within ten feet of him and shot him in less than two seconds. How can he defend against a two-second timeline.
And for the love of Pete, he was a twelve year old child. With the limited cognitive development of a child that age. Tucking a gun in a waistband versus in-hand, or concealed versus open carry, is not something a twelve year old child thinks about. Whether the officers knew he was a child or an adult, they NEVER TOOK THE TIME TO RECONNAISANCE and determine if there was a danger, or a situation that could be de-escalated.
I won't call you a racist or an asshole. I'll leave that to other, better people. But your arguments lack merit or substance. You're tilting at windmills in your attempts at justification.
And for the poster that stated that they want to have a discussion without emotions being attached to it, I'm all for that. I'm pretty sure that comment should have been for the board and not the two posters here that had a different view.
Umm it was which is why I didn't quote either of the two dissenters. Should I have tagged the entire rest of the board? Or are you just trying to be obtuse? Sent from my SM-G920V using proboards
Not obtuse. You are too literal. I wasn't telling you to "quote" it. I was saying that what you stated could be advice for everyone here, not just the two people you all so vehemently disagree with.
It's interesting that ajm or whatever the name is has participated in 3 threads here in the last 2 years. One about Ferguson, one about friends/family of cops, and this one.
Suggests there's a bias, right? But no no no, it's just a "different opinion."
I'm not a genius or anything, but I sure have an opinion.
It's interesting that ajm or whatever the name is has participated in 3 threads here in the last 2 years. One about Ferguson, one about friends/family of cops, and this one.
ORLY?
josieposy was one of those thread the one in which Tillie liked those ignant comments?
Honestly I'm not sure. I'd have to go back and look. [ETA: Oh goodness it was the 78-pager from last year. A lot happened in there, and crap I don't have a spreadsheet!]
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Dec 30, 2015 8:46:02 GMT -5
Fuck you, ajm. If conversation is so impossible, why don't you sit in the corner with a piece of KKK pie and keep your mouth closed. If you aren't furious that a child was needlessly shot because we live in a culture where our LEO's are making poor decision after poor decision and the people who are suffering the consequences aren't the officers, and it's sure as fuck not the city leaders or anyone else in charge, the people who are suffering the consequences of these poorly trained assholes are lower income black families. Often black children. Why the fuck are we holding black children to some standard that doesn't match white children? Or white adults? If you aren't furious over this, you are the problem. You have blood on your hands.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
Aug 21, 2014 7:02:34 GMT -8 @helenabonhamcarter said:
I believe so. I think the idea is that the suspect isn't dead until the ME comes on the scene and declares them so, especially someone who was posing a threat.
But I'm not sure.
Yes, we are trained to handcuff, even if they are clearly dead.
(emphasis mine)
Among other comments in the thread (talking about shooting at the body rather than limbs, taser usage, etc.
ajm796 Look. I'm definitely a proponent of civil discourse and debate without histrionics and calling people names.
However, just as with any group, you can't (or shouldn't) ignore context. While it is completely your prerogative to only engage in threads of specific topics, knowing existing context and how that topic ties in to other discussions is far better than sweeping in with comments which clearly avoid those related topics. When you do, particularly on the topic of white LE violence against people of color (which is fairly front and center for our country today anyway), acknowledging the context would go a long way to having a rational conversation.
But as I stated in my prior post, you've got black posters here who have had to post repeatedly to raise our awareness of the different experience their families have with LE when compared with white folks. They are already having these talks with their kids and friends of how to behave in public just to stay alive, and that notion unto itself is outrageous but is completely reflective of racism in our society today.
Tamir is just one story among far too many we've seen and discussed on this board where white on black violence is being condoned. So perhaps you could take that into account when you type your future replies.
Did his fake gun have the orange tip? That seems to be a point that isn't brought up. I do think the officers put themselves in a position of disadvantage that caused the situation to only last the two seconds it. Ohio being an open carry state, isn't Tamir concealing the gun when it's in his waistband? Then that is concealed carry. I don't think the point of open carry is to wave it around in a park either.
You can call me racist and an asshole all you want, I don't really care. It doesn't help you cause.
People have said it here before that the reason they don't engage when they have a dissenting position is because conversation doesn't happen. It breaks down, becomes hostile, and those select few won't engage. It must be great for you all to surround yourselves with people that have the same views as you. And for the poster that stated that they want to have a discussion without emotions being attached to it, I'm all for that. I'm pretty sure that comment should have been for the board and not the two posters here that had a different view.
I'm not calling you anything. It appears that you have been reading this thread. I asked you specifically 50 posts ago what you thought of the fact that the police gave no aid to the dying child and assaulted his sister (also a child) when she ran to him. It seems you don't actually want to have a conversation after all.
Did his fake gun have the orange tip? That seems to be a point that isn't brought up. I do think the officers put themselves in a position of disadvantage that caused the situation to only last the two seconds it. Ohio being an open carry state, isn't Tamir concealing the gun when it's in his waistband? Then that is concealed carry. I don't think the point of open carry is to wave it around in a park either.
You can call me racist and an asshole all you want, I don't really care. It doesn't help you cause.
People have said it here before that the reason they don't engage when they have a dissenting position is because conversation doesn't happen. It breaks down, becomes hostile, and those select few won't engage. It must be great for you all to surround yourselves with people that have the same views as you. And for the poster that stated that they want to have a discussion without emotions being attached to it, I'm all for that. I'm pretty sure that comment should have been for the board and not the two posters here that had a different view.
Ok let's say he had a real gun...
I really don't know the ins and outs of police training, so you can verify that the police followed correct protocol to drive up so close at a high speed and then shoot within 2 seconds when he wasn't aiming a gun at anyone? How come sometimes police approach from further away, take cover and give clear instructions multiple times before taking action?
Also, afterwards, why did they have to literally tackle is petite sister to the ground?
And honestly it does scare me that as someone in law, you aren't aware that minorities are often treated differently by law enforcement. The only way change happens is if people recognize that there is a problem. Based on your first post asking us if we're mad because of this boy's race makes it seem like you don't understand what's been going on in this country for decades in regards to race relations and treatment of minorities. So I guess my question in regards to that, is does your office do any diversity training?
Did his fake gun have the orange tip? That seems to be a point that isn't brought up. I do think the officers put themselves in a position of disadvantage that caused the situation to only last the two seconds it. Ohio being an open carry state, isn't Tamir concealing the gun when it's in his waistband? Then that is concealed carry. I don't think the point of open carry is to wave it around in a park either.
You can call me racist and an asshole all you want, I don't really care. It doesn't help you cause.
People have said it here before that the reason they don't engage when they have a dissenting position is because conversation doesn't happen. It breaks down, becomes hostile, and those select few won't engage. It must be great for you all to surround yourselves with people that have the same views as you. And for the poster that stated that they want to have a discussion without emotions being attached to it, I'm all for that. I'm pretty sure that comment should have been for the board and not the two posters here that had a different view.
Okay, I'm going to try to be nice. You are missing the point. You have done everything in your power to blame the victim. It doesn't matter if the gun had an orange tip or not, that isn't the point. The police didn't handle the situation properly in any way shape or form. They got a call that a black kid was waving around a gun and the rolled up ready to shoot. You can't call to someone from inside a car and expect him to hear you. You can make every excuse in the book for why the police did what they did, but what it comes down to is they showed up to that situation ready to shoot a black person and that's what they did. To call it anything else is being obtuse.
Bitch, fuck you. How's that for respect and discussion? You come in here guns a'blazin' with attitude waggling your finger about how you can't have a discussion with us, when you haven't bothered to have one with us prior to today. So fuck you. You can have your opinion. And it can be wrong. Have a better life.
I don't know why the bolded is making me LOL as much as it is. I think this is reminding me of your Momma when she was told to not smoke!!
FIF never curses people out. That is how you know what you're dealing with here.
It's interesting that ajm or whatever the name is has participated in 3 threads here in the last 2 years. One about Ferguson, one about friends/family of cops, and this one.
Suggests there's a bias, right? But no no no, it's just a "different opinion."
when our assertion is "black lives matter," and someone has a "different opinion" on that, then it is time for him/her to evaluate their life.