As far as the orange tip, toy guns are no longer required to have those. They can legally look identical to the real thing. The toy industry and the NRA banded together and lobbied to make that happen.
(Cue "I'm not having a discussion because you obviously don't want to really discuss anything/it wouldn't be worth it/nothing will change your mind" in 3...2...)
We really are impossible to converse with, what with asking her questions and all.
Did his fake gun have the orange tip? That seems to be a point that isn't brought up. I do think the officers put themselves in a position of disadvantage that caused the situation to only last the two seconds it. Ohio being an open carry state, isn't Tamir concealing the gun when it's in his waistband? Then that is concealed carry. I don't think the point of open carry is to wave it around in a park either.
You can call me racist and an asshole all you want, I don't really care. It doesn't help you cause.
People have said it here before that the reason they don't engage when they have a dissenting position is because conversation doesn't happen. It breaks down, becomes hostile, and those select few won't engage. It must be great for you all to surround yourselves with people that have the same views as you. And for the poster that stated that they want to have a discussion without emotions being attached to it, I'm all for that. I'm pretty sure that comment should have been for the board and not the two posters here that had a different view.
Ok let's say he had a real gun...
I really don't know the ins and outs of police training, so you can verify that the police followed correct protocol to drive up so close at a high speed and then shoot within 2 seconds when he wasn't aiming a gun at anyone? How come sometimes police approach from further away, take cover and give clear instructions multiple times before taking action?
Also, afterwards, why did they have to literally tackle is petite sister to the ground?
And honestly it does scare me that as someone in law, you aren't aware that minorities are often treated differently by law enforcement. The only way change happens is if people recognize that there is a problem. Based on your first post asking us if we're mad because of this boy's race makes it seem like you don't understand what's been going on in this country for decades in regards to race relations and treatment of minorities. So I guess my question in regards to that, is does your office do any diversity training?
ALL OF THIS.
Am I upset if a white boy or man is shot by the police for a misunderstanding (for lack of a better word)? Absolutely. HOWEVER, 1) That doesn't happen with the frequency that it happens to black boys and men, and 2) The response, both from the police department and the public, is likely to be VERY different.
I know I'm mostly preaching to the choir here, but the "All Lives Matter" response to "Black Lives Matter" is infuriating because our society has shown through its responses to events that other lives ALREADY MATTERED. THAT'S THE POINT, ASSHOLES!
We haven't watched "Making a Murderer" yet, but H keeps pointing out that all of a sudden, white people everywhere seem to be concerned with the justice system fucking up. Before a white dude was featured? Whatevs.
As far as the orange tip, toy guns are no longer required to have those. They can legally look identical to the real thing. The toy industry and the NRA banded together and lobbied to make that happen.
I'm catching up. I didn't know this. Fucking NRA.
To be more specific, it's BB guns that don't require this. For toy guns, federal law says they're supposed to have it, but the law is so weak that they can be easily removed or painted over and companies that don't comply with the law are basically never punished. And the NRA has worked to block state laws as well as additional federal laws that would make the guns themselves brightly colored or with a fluorescent strip.
To be more specific, it's BB guns that don't require this. For toy guns, federal law says they're supposed to have it, but the law is so weak that they can be easily removed or painted over and companies that don't comply with the law are basically never punished. And the NRA has worked to block state laws as well as additional federal laws that would make the guns themselves brightly colored or with a fluorescent strip.
But why? I don't agree with almost anything the NRA says/does, but I can usually see some underlying (flawed) rationale. But what rationale could they possibly have for opposing this?
To be more specific, it's BB guns that don't require this. For toy guns, federal law says they're supposed to have it, but the law is so weak that they can be easily removed or painted over and companies that don't comply with the law are basically never punished. And the NRA has worked to block state laws as well as additional federal laws that would make the guns themselves brightly colored or with a fluorescent strip.
But why? I don't agree with almost anything the NRA says/does, but I can usually see some underlying (flawed) rationale. But what rationale could they possibly have for opposing this?
They claim it's for safety reasons (that if a BB gun is colored bright orange people will think it's completely safe). But I think they just are more interested in promoting the allure and appeal of guns to young kids so that they'll "graduate" to buying the real thing when they come of age. You have to remember that the primary goal of the NRA is to sell more firearms. They're thinking of this from a marketing and branding perspective.
But why? I don't agree with almost anything the NRA says/does, but I can usually see some underlying (flawed) rationale. But what rationale could they possibly have for opposing this?
They claim it's for safety reasons (that if a BB gun is colored bright orange people will think it's completely safe). But I think they just are more interested in promoting the allure and appeal of guns to young kids so that they'll "graduate" to buying the real thing when they come of age. You have to remember that the primary goal of the NRA is to sell more firearms. They're thinking of this from a marketing and branding perspective.
Just so I understand...everyone is upset about the victims age and the color of his skin? And those two factors are why the officers should be charged?
Everyone keeps saying if it were a real gun it would have been legal. I don't think you guys know how Ohio open carry laws work. Ohio also has laws against "inciting a riot". You can't just walk down the street waving a gun around. The gun needs to be holstered. In fact, this is why concealed carry laws were passed in Ohio - to get around the "inciting a riot" laws.
But if an officer is responding to an active shooter situation, because the call says the suspect was waving the gun around, even if the gun were real and holstered when officers approached the suspect, he would have still been charged with a crime for inciting a riot with the gun.
It's a tragedy that this child is dead due to his own foolish behavior. His parents should have taught him that it is dangerous to wave a toy gun around in public. There are so many people to blame here, including trigger happy police.
As far as the orange tip, toy guns are no longer required to have those. They can legally look identical to the real thing. The toy industry and the NRA banded together and lobbied to make that happen.
I'm catching up. I didn't know this. Fucking NRA.
ttt correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the premise was that a "bad guy" could just paint a tip of a gun orange and so an officer couldn't just assume an orange tip meant anything anyway, right?
Just so I understand...everyone is upset about the victims age and the color of his skin? And those two factors are why the officers should be charged?
.
Omg this post did not really happen, right? Right???
Omg this post did not really happen, right? Right???
ETA for clarity the first post not the response
It did. She followed up with she saw the video and saw nothing wrong with it. I know we are supposed to talk and argue, but homegirl is a lost cause. She can fuck right off.
ttt correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the premise was that a "bad guy" could just paint a tip of a gun orange and so an officer couldn't just assume an orange tip meant anything anyway, right?
I could see that argument but that doesn't explain why they stood in he way of bills that would require the entire toy gun be orange (or other bright color).
I am having trouble keeping up with CEP while on vacation and know this thread has taken a turn but wanted to express my sadness for Tamir's friends and family at this next blow.
Of course his age is a factor, you useless piece of garbage. I'll get right in with name calling because FUCK YOU. He was twelve. With a fucking toy gun. Goddammit, I cannot have rational conversations any more.
If Tamir had been white, we'd be calling him a little white boy who was completely innocent with a toy gun and the officers would be monsters. Because he was black, he is suddenly some grown man (which is complete and utter bullshit, by the fucking way) waving a gun around, threatening the lives of everyone around him.
It's racism. It's blatant, hateful, in-your-face racism, and this country has a big fucking problem that we don't want to confront.
Post by penguingrrl on Dec 30, 2015 13:13:34 GMT -5
Anyone who could excuse these officers actions is missing all morality. It's blatant racism that a little boy was murdered by police and his family won't see justice for his mirder. It plays out again and again in this country.
And his poor family. I can't imagine how much pain his mother is in.
Just so I understand...everyone is upset about the victims age and the color of his skin? And those two factors are why the officers should be charged?
To the White Parents of my Black Son’s Friends December 29, 2015 by Maralee | 60 Comments
I’ve been wrestling with talking to you about some things I think you need to know. I’ve wrestled with it because I feel my own sense of shame– shame that I didn’t know or understand these issues before they touched my family. I’ve felt fear that you’ll respond in subtle ways that make it clear you aren’t safe for my child. I’ve been concerned that you won’t believe me and then I’ll feel more angry than if I hadn’t said anything. But my son is getting older and as he transitions from an adorable black boy to a strong black man, I know the assumptions about him will change. And I need your help in keeping him safe.
We talk to our son about safety issues. We talk to him about being respectful of police (and anyone in authority), about keeping his hands where they are visible, about not wearing his hood up over his face or sneaking through the neighbor’s backyard during hide-and-seek or when taking a shortcut home from school. We are doing what we can to find this bizarre balance of helping him be proud of who he is and helping him understand that not everybody is going to see him the way we see him. Some people are going to see him as a “thug” before they ever know his name, his story, his gifts and talents.
But here’s the thing– as much as we can try to protect him and teach him to protect himself, there may come a time when your child will be involved. As the parents of the white friend of my black son, I need you to be talking to your child about racism. I need you to be talking about the assumptions other people might make about my son. I need you to talk to your child about what they would do if they saw injustice happening.
I know that in a white family it is easy to use words like “colorblind” and feel like we’re enlightened and progressive. But if you teach your kids to be colorblind, they may not understand the uniquely dangerous situations my child can find himself in. If you tell your kids racism happened a long time ago and now it’s over and use my family as an example of how whites and blacks and browns can all get along together, you are not doing me any favors. Just because you haven’t seen obvious examples of racism in your own life doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
It is easy to think we live in a colorblind society when you don’t know that two weeks ago I was on the phone with the principal at my son’s school to discuss the racial insults he was regularly receiving from the student sitting next to him. I was thankful for how seriously the school handled that incident and we consider it a huge victory that my son felt safe telling his parents and teacher how he was being teased since many kids don’t. It is easy to think we live in a post racial society when you don’t know that a neighbor of mine called the Child Protective Services hotline to complain about my kids behaving in the exact same ways as the ten other white neighbor children they regularly play with behave (playing in the “street”– we live on a cul-de-sac–, playing in our front yard without shoes, asking for snacks from the neighbor parents- these are the actual complaints that were made). I don’t want to begin to tell you the trauma it is to former foster kids when a social worker shows up at your house to interview them and I’m afraid I haven’t yet forgiven our neighbor for bringing that on our family (although it was quickly determined to be a ridiculous complaint and there was no further action taken). The thing is, I doubt that neighbor even thinks of himself as racist, but the fact that when the white kids of the neighborhood do it it’s “kids being kids”, but when the kids of color are involved it’s got to be addressed by authorities shows the underlying bias of his assumptions. This isn’t “concern”, this is harassment.
So white parents, please talk to your kids about racism. If they see my son being bullied or called racist names, they need to stand with him. They need to understand how threatening that is and not just something to be laughed off. If your child is with my child playing soccer at the park and the police drive by, tell your child to stay. Just stay right there with my son. Be a witness. In that situation, be extra polite, extra respectful. Don’t run and don’t leave my son by himself. If you are with my son, this is not the time to try out any new risky behaviors. Whatever trouble you get into, he will likely not be judged by the same standard you are. Be understanding that he can’t make the same mistakes you can.
White parents, treat my son with respect. Don’t rub his head because you want to know what his hair feels like. Don’t speak black slang to him because you think it would be funny. If you’re thinking about making a joke that you feel might be slightly questionable, just don’t do it. Ever. Your kids are listening and learning from you even in the jokes you tell. Be conscious of what media messages your kids are getting about race. Engage in tough conversations about what you’re hearing in the news. Don’t shy away from this just because you can. He can’t. We can’t.
Be an advocate for this beautiful soul who has eaten at your kitchen table, sat next to your son at church, been at your child’s birthday party. He is not the exception to the rule. He is not protected by my white privilege for the rest of his life. He is not inherently different from any other little black boy and ALL their lives have value and worth and were created by God. I have hope that when white parents start talking about these issues with our white kids, maybe that’s where change starts.
Post by miniroller on Dec 30, 2015 14:03:31 GMT -5
WOT?* Thanks for sharing that insightful article. I don't have kids yet, but emailed to myself & filed under future kid read. I'll also absolutely be passing this along.
It's interesting that ajm or whatever the name is has participated in 3 threads here in the last 2 years. One about Ferguson, one about friends/family of cops, and this one.
I'm rarely able to contribute much to epic threads, but I think I've finally caught up on this one. I don't feel like I have anything to add that hasn't already been said, except this observation.
The other day, at my in-laws' house, I saw three youngish teenaged boys walking behind the house. It was broad daylight, in the middle of a residential neighborhood, and they were just walking in the row between the houses' backyards.
Except they were wearing full on camo and each boy was carrying what looked to be a long, thin rifle. I saw it and thought, "that's kind if weird. It's the middle if the city. There's no place to hunt around here." I pointed it out to my MIL, who expressed the same thought.
These boys were all white. Had they been black, I guarantee my MIL would have thought there was something more sinister going on. There's a good chance she would have wanted to call the cops.
To the White Parents of my Black Son’s Friends December 29, 2015 by Maralee | 60 Comments
I’ve been wrestling with talking to you about some things I think you need to know. I’ve wrestled with it because I feel my own sense of shame– shame that I didn’t know or understand these issues before they touched my family. I’ve felt fear that you’ll respond in subtle ways that make it clear you aren’t safe for my child. I’ve been concerned that you won’t believe me and then I’ll feel more angry than if I hadn’t said anything. But my son is getting older and as he transitions from an adorable black boy to a strong black man, I know the assumptions about him will change. And I need your help in keeping him safe.
We talk to our son about safety issues. We talk to him about being respectful of police (and anyone in authority), about keeping his hands where they are visible, about not wearing his hood up over his face or sneaking through the neighbor’s backyard during hide-and-seek or when taking a shortcut home from school. We are doing what we can to find this bizarre balance of helping him be proud of who he is and helping him understand that not everybody is going to see him the way we see him. Some people are going to see him as a “thug” before they ever know his name, his story, his gifts and talents.
But here’s the thing– as much as we can try to protect him and teach him to protect himself, there may come a time when your child will be involved. As the parents of the white friend of my black son, I need you to be talking to your child about racism. I need you to be talking about the assumptions other people might make about my son. I need you to talk to your child about what they would do if they saw injustice happening.
I know that in a white family it is easy to use words like “colorblind” and feel like we’re enlightened and progressive. But if you teach your kids to be colorblind, they may not understand the uniquely dangerous situations my child can find himself in. If you tell your kids racism happened a long time ago and now it’s over and use my family as an example of how whites and blacks and browns can all get along together, you are not doing me any favors. Just because you haven’t seen obvious examples of racism in your own life doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
It is easy to think we live in a colorblind society when you don’t know that two weeks ago I was on the phone with the principal at my son’s school to discuss the racial insults he was regularly receiving from the student sitting next to him. I was thankful for how seriously the school handled that incident and we consider it a huge victory that my son felt safe telling his parents and teacher how he was being teased since many kids don’t. It is easy to think we live in a post racial society when you don’t know that a neighbor of mine called the Child Protective Services hotline to complain about my kids behaving in the exact same ways as the ten other white neighbor children they regularly play with behave (playing in the “street”– we live on a cul-de-sac–, playing in our front yard without shoes, asking for snacks from the neighbor parents- these are the actual complaints that were made). I don’t want to begin to tell you the trauma it is to former foster kids when a social worker shows up at your house to interview them and I’m afraid I haven’t yet forgiven our neighbor for bringing that on our family (although it was quickly determined to be a ridiculous complaint and there was no further action taken). The thing is, I doubt that neighbor even thinks of himself as racist, but the fact that when the white kids of the neighborhood do it it’s “kids being kids”, but when the kids of color are involved it’s got to be addressed by authorities shows the underlying bias of his assumptions. This isn’t “concern”, this is harassment.
So white parents, please talk to your kids about racism. If they see my son being bullied or called racist names, they need to stand with him. They need to understand how threatening that is and not just something to be laughed off. If your child is with my child playing soccer at the park and the police drive by, tell your child to stay. Just stay right there with my son. Be a witness. In that situation, be extra polite, extra respectful. Don’t run and don’t leave my son by himself. If you are with my son, this is not the time to try out any new risky behaviors. Whatever trouble you get into, he will likely not be judged by the same standard you are. Be understanding that he can’t make the same mistakes you can.
White parents, treat my son with respect. Don’t rub his head because you want to know what his hair feels like. Don’t speak black slang to him because you think it would be funny. If you’re thinking about making a joke that you feel might be slightly questionable, just don’t do it. Ever. Your kids are listening and learning from you even in the jokes you tell. Be conscious of what media messages your kids are getting about race. Engage in tough conversations about what you’re hearing in the news. Don’t shy away from this just because you can. He can’t. We can’t.
Be an advocate for this beautiful soul who has eaten at your kitchen table, sat next to your son at church, been at your child’s birthday party. He is not the exception to the rule. He is not protected by my white privilege for the rest of his life. He is not inherently different from any other little black boy and ALL their lives have value and worth and were created by God. I have hope that when white parents start talking about these issues with our white kids, maybe that’s where change starts.
Thank you for sharing this. I shared it on my fb page.
ttt correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the premise was that a "bad guy" could just paint a tip of a gun orange and so an officer couldn't just assume an orange tip meant anything anyway, right?
You know what else proverbial bad guys could do? Pretend they're legal open OR concealed carriers to bring a firearm somewhere and wait for the right moment. Amazingly, the NRA doesn't see *that* possibility as a problem to block legislation over.