So, are we talking about that MMM thread..

[Beeps (WOT?*)]

I haven't been able to get through the thread until now (yay for not feeling well and wonky bio-rhythms) and haven't gone through the one on MMM, but @kirkette I'm sorry I wasn't here and being supportive of you to the point that you were made to feel angry and alone. You should never be made to feel that way.

You're been a good person and have been a good friend to people who have need it, when they needed it most. I'd like to add that while you didn't need elle or miso to confirm (at least for me) who you are, they know you IRL - and it's sad to me that they felt they needed to defend you in that way because of how things (and people) were turning against you. 

I can appreciate elle's comment because there has always been a certain "to the manor (or manner) born" mentality, or at least that's how I was raised among the white-gloves and Mary-Janes set a half-century ago (OMG!) in the social-climbing part of inland OC. She didn't need to say it for me to believe it, but it does go to confirm (for those that were raised like me, at least) what you've been saying for a very long time about who you are and how you were raised. For some, it's a natural poise born of upbringing and opportunity due to your surrounds since birth, rather than a taught one like social-climber me. Something like the differences among the classes in England that we're not supposed to admit having here. Much like porn: "I know it when I see it." So props to Elle for her vigorous defense.

I've had my ass smacked here for comments ("colorblind!") I've made in the past and I've had to learn a lot about my privilege. I still struggle with it. I'll add my thanks to @wandering for posting the chart on micro-aggression. I am and have been guilty of too many of them; some of them horrify me now as to how ignorant I have been in the past. I'm trying to do better. And thanks to kooshball for posting on the "being an ally." I posted a different one some time ago that I'll have to find but it is *very important* to read and understand about how we, as privileged members of society because of our skin, must be *allies* to those who aren't. We can't empathize so much as sympathize. And it's important to know the difference and recognize it.

As I have told you before, you've always impressed and intimidated me. I mean that in the best way possible. That is not something I admit to a lot of people.


kooshball invited you to Seattle for a playdate. Consider it seconded.

[Deleted]

Another one of the lurkers who have not posted. I'm very aware that between the racist history of my region and my family history, I have been very sheltered about race relations and microaggressions and never feel that I can contribute to these kinds of threads without putting my foot in my mouth somehow. But I truly do appreciate the information and links and try to absorb and shift my mindset as these discussions unfold. Thank you for being so assertive and willing to educate, even when it's exhausting.

[Monica Geller]

I too feel the need to acknowledge I've read the thread and am feeling resolved to do better. I want to be a better here, but more importantly for my students IRL.

[bittybomb]

Wow. What a thread. My only contribution to this whole thing is that it is really eye opening how little I know, which is so scary. I mean, I never considered myself to be racist in the slightest, but I never considered these microagressions either. I was also raised to be colorblind, and I know that is not the way to do it with my own kids. I am so thankful for everyone who has shared their own experiences and perceptions. I will do better and teach my kids to be better.

[Deleted]

Jan 26, 2016 20:05:12 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:02:55 GMT -5 Que? said:

I agree, and I understand how it definitely would feel like a mob mentality was in place. I'm apologizing for contributing to that. A lot of the statements that I've made in this thread, including the ones to you, were coming from me feeling like lines were being blurred, but as I read and understand more, I see that the issues being discussed here are all tied up with one another and not easily separated. A lot led up to what happened yesterday and today on the boards, and I hadn't read a lot of it.

I hadn't seen the "young philanthropist" thread on MM until today and find it probably the most appalling example of the belittling that booby was doing. Well, and add in V because she was horrifying as well. 

I inserted myself into something before being aware of this backstory. I was honestly shocked when I took the time to go back and see all of the ways booby has been working. It's so appalling. We all know I certainly wasn't defending booby - but I added to the fodder and I'm so sorry kirkette.

[05heel]

Man, I'm still salty as hell about this thread. Glad everyone is back to feeling awesome about themselves I suppose. Just remember that this is some basic shit and you should be embarrassed to find anything shared in here so fucking relevatory. Why do I post here again?

[maryanne]

@kirkette! I saw that you tagged me and am trying to catch up and figure out what's happening here, but wanted to offer hugs and support. It makes me sad to see my friends upset

[scottyderp]

Jan 27, 2016 11:30:00 GMT -5 05heel said:

Man, I'm still salty as hell about this thread. Glad everyone is back to feeling awesome about themselves I suppose. Just remember that this is some basic shit and you should be embarrassed to find anything shared in here so fucking relevatory. Why do I post here again?

I feel awkward and weird, actually, with a touch of desperation for a good day. Kitten pictures would help.

[trafficgirl]

Jan 27, 2016 11:30:00 GMT -5 05heel said:

Man, I'm still salty as hell about this thread. Glad everyone is back to feeling awesome about themselves I suppose. Just remember that this is some basic shit and you should be embarrassed to find anything shared in here so fucking relevatory. Why do I post here again?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I definitely AM embarrassed.

[05heel]

Jan 27, 2016 11:36:01 GMT -5 @stilljustash said:

Jan 27, 2016 11:30:00 GMT -5 05heel said:

Man, I'm still salty as hell about this thread. Glad everyone is back to feeling awesome about themselves I suppose. Just remember that this is some basic shit and you should be embarrassed to find anything shared in here so fucking relevatory. Why do I post here again?

just here for the cosign.

it's honestly the least funny joke I've ever seen/heard. Kirkette is a good one, because this one right here? Lol, and no ma'am. I've had enough of this game. But I'll first extend my middle finger to anyone who was all "I don't want to post on a board where threats are ok" just because a perfectly lovely board member had to burn down the proverbial CVS over some simple ass shit. I mean, what part of the game is that?

Like, nothing about this 20+ page thread is cute, cathartic, uplifting, or admirable. It's simply infuriating.

[scottyderp]

How are people supposed to respond. I'm being genuine. Whose posts are making you rage?

[scottyderp]

I'm sorry. I will stop posting--I am not trying to offend you.

[sonrisa]

Jan 27, 2016 11:30:00 GMT -5 05heel said:

Man, I'm still salty as hell about this thread. Glad everyone is back to feeling awesome about themselves I suppose. Just remember that this is some basic shit and you should be embarrassed to find anything shared in here so fucking relevatory. Why do I post here again?

I actually am encouraged. Last night it looked like only CEP was posting in here and I would have sworn that ML had stopped even noticing. But enough people posted in here that I'm starting think people actually read the thread and *in the moment* thought about race and microaggressions, not just "that crazy kirkette" "ha, ha, booby" "I'm bored. Where are the gifs?" 

[CurlyQ284]

I keep typing and deleting because 1. I hate arguing here (not in real life, go figure, but it makes me anxious on here). 2. Who am I to chime in on this issue? I'm white and I will never know what it's like.

But along the lines of what @stilljustash said, it shouldn't take this many pages to get it.

Everyone says they're still learning, but at what point are we done learning and we just get it? At what point are the explanations unnecessary because we see it all by ourselves, you know?

[scottyderp]

Thank you for sharing, I can't imagine that it is easy to be patient with ignorance. I genuinely feel like a blanket has been lifted and I am just seeing only a bit of the things that POC deal with. I don't have those years of frustration under my belt. I just want to be clear that any uplifting thoughts or feelings that I had were hope for progress in understanding each other better, and I'm sorry if that feeling is also exhausting to encounter. Thank you for sharing your feelings and helping people to try to understand, even if it's horrible. I, and I think others who have led sheltered lives, are absorbing this, and want to be better. I am genuinely sad for you that you are upset, and hurting. I won't just go back to my life and not think about it. I will think about it and speak up. I will pay more attention, I have read about microaggressions. If you see me saying/doing something that is off, and you feel like telling me, I hope that you do. I think I am not alone in feeling this way. I'll eliminate the sarcasm and cutesy language from these conversations.

[05heel]

Jan 27, 2016 11:59:58 GMT -5 scottyderp said:

How are people supposed to respond. I'm being genuine. Whose posts are making you rage?

I'm just raging and lashing out, I guess.  I absolutely don't want people to stop responding if they feel compelled to.  I can stop reading at any time, so it's fine.  Plus, I can admit that I'm projecting quite a bit, because it's not even my personal issue.  I shouldn't be trying to make anyone feel bad for feeling bad, or Kirkette feel bad for reaching some sort of resolution.  Everyone is different, and I'll acknowledge that my general distaste for apologies and backpedaling doesn't really matter here.  I still find it all very tiresome though, and it absolutely makes me question my participation on the board.  It's not that we harbor a bunch of racists or anything.  People get smacked down with relative quickness once it's exposed.  It's more that it's so damn easy to be outwardly and casually discriminatory.  It really only takes one to ruin your day.  Then things go back to normal and here I am just as black as always, ready for the next wave of foolishness to roll in.  And since this isn't the only place I frequent during the course of the day, there's never just one. 

[miso]

Jan 27, 2016 12:12:33 GMT -5 freedom said:

Jan 27, 2016 11:59:58 GMT -5 scottyderp said:

How are people supposed to respond. I'm being genuine. Whose posts are making you rage?

I don't even know how to explain it. These posts are like how I felt about The Help, a feel good movie/book to make white people feel better about themselves.

Amistad
Avatar
The Blind Side
Blood Diamond
Cool Runnings
Dances With Wolves
Django Unchained
Glory
Gran Torino
The Last Samurai
Lawrence of Arabia
Mississippi Burning
A Time to Kill
To Kill a Mockingbird

[redheadbaker]

I don't "go here" but I read the thread. I had some initial reactions that now embarrass me, and almost walked away from the thread. I'm glad I kept reading. I'm sorry that it took so long for me to see what the POC posters have had to put up with for years.

[sonrisa]

Jan 27, 2016 12:14:18 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

Everyone says they're still learning, but at what point are we done learning and we just get it? At what point are the explanations unnecessary because we see it all by ourselves, you know?

My thoughts:

Learning is a continuing process. "Still learning" isn't an issue in and of itself. But grown women raising their own children shouldn't be "still learning" the equivalent of 2-1 = 1. And it shouldn't take a story like "remember how I had two kids and one died? And now I have one? Yeah. That is how subtraction works" to get the message across.  

[miso]

Jan 27, 2016 12:21:45 GMT -5 freedom said:

Jan 27, 2016 12:18:42 GMT -5 miso said:

Amistad
Avatar
The Blind Side
Blood Diamond
Cool Runnings
Dances With Wolves
Django Unchained
Glory
Gran Torino
The Last Samurai
Lawrence of Arabia
Mississippi Burning
A Time to Kill
To Kill a Mockingbird

Oh I know there is more. I just thought of the help since someone at work is presently raving about it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using proboards

Unfriend.

[bearbaby]

I have not posted in any of the threads regarding this topic, here or on my home board of MMM.

But it's become important for me to say that I have read everything - and have done a great deal of self reflection. Some of it uncomfortable, all of it important.

Thank you @kirkette most especially for continuing to post in this thread.

[fryjack2]

Jan 27, 2016 12:14:18 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

I keep typing and deleting because 1. I hate arguing here (not in real life, go figure, but it makes me anxious on here). 2. Who am I to chime in on this issue? I'm white and I will never know what it's like.

But along the lines of what @stilljustash said, it shouldn't take this many pages to get it.

Everyone says they're still learning, but at what point are we done learning and we just get it? At what point are the explanations unnecessary because we see it all by ourselves, you know?

Well, its 2016 and its still super prevalent so I'm not holding my breath that things will be miraculously better with the next generation.   I hope that with each generation it DOES get at least a little better so that centuries from now it isn't an issue.

We have rich white men like Trump being given so much media coverage ( and power) spewing absolutely horrific racism.  And people are eating it up and campaigning for him.  

[CurlyQ284]

Jan 27, 2016 12:28:24 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Jan 27, 2016 12:14:18 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

I keep typing and deleting because 1. I hate arguing here (not in real life, go figure, but it makes me anxious on here). 2. Who am I to chime in on this issue? I'm white and I will never know what it's like.

But along the lines of what @stilljustash said, it shouldn't take this many pages to get it.

Everyone says they're still learning, but at what point are we done learning and we just get it? At what point are the explanations unnecessary because we see it all by ourselves, you know?

Well, its 2016 and its still super prevalent so I'm not holding my breath that things will be miraculously better with the next generation.   I hope that with each generation it DOES get at least a little better so that centuries from now it isn't an issue.

We have rich white men like Trump being given so much media coverage ( and power) spewing absolutely horrific racism.  And people are eating it up and campaigning for him.  

I really just meant on here. We talk about race on here enough.

Thinking about all of white America...thats depressing and feels hopeless, and also enraged that it feels so hopeless.

[05heel]

Jan 27, 2016 12:21:29 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Jan 27, 2016 12:14:18 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

Everyone says they're still learning, but at what point are we done learning and we just get it? At what point are the explanations unnecessary because we see it all by ourselves, you know?

My thoughts:

Learning is a continuing process. "Still learning" isn't an issue in and off itself. But grown women raising their own children shouldn't be "still learning" the equivalent of 2-1 = 1. And it shouldn't take a story like "remember how I had two kids and one died? And now I have one? Yeah. That is how subtraction works" to get the message across.  

Yes.  I've always been on the militant side (to put it mildly), but having a brown kid of my own and hanging out with other mothers has left me completely hopeless for a better tomorrow.  I find it utterly disheartening to see post after post of "I had no idea" from people who I always assumed I didn't have to worry about.  Remember, I grew up poor and cut my teeth on the type of overt racism that we all recognize from a mile away.  So now I'm pretty wealthy and have degrees, publications, and professional clout.  Same shit different toilet.  Plus now I have the added pressure of helping my kid navigate a world I didn't grow up in, while simultaneously learning how to navigate it myself.   These threads don't help me in that AT ALL.  Well, I guess they do in that they validate and confirm my past experiences.  But it's certainly not what I want or wanted for my own child.  I honestly don't know how my parents did it without losing their damn heads.

[gretchenindisguise]

I don't want to speak for those who are frustrated, but I imagine it's frustrating as hell to see all of these bubbled up posters being basically brand new to things that you've been struggling with literally your entire life. It speaks to the amount of privilege the bubble world posters have been able to live in.

And I say that being one of those posters who had one of those brand new epiphanies a while ago, and continues to learn stuff that I feel should be obvious. I can't imagine how irritated I'd be by this and similar threads (which always end the same way - with a trove of posters saying the same things - it's played out on CEP several times).

On the flip side - good! I'm glad the epiphanies are happening, and I'm confident that those angry/frustrated are too. It's ok to be happy about the breakthroughs and frustrated that in 2016 on a board of mostly intelligent women, that these seemingly basic level breakthroughs have to occur. Seemingly monthly.

[Deleted]

I don't know what to do. I don't know how to make it better. ETA: And I don't know why you guys post here either. This has got to be painful as hell.


I don't mean that snarkily at all. I've got all the privilege in the world and the gift of selective ignorance and even I feel bogged down with how often this has to be rehashed and questioned. I can't even imagine the frustration dealing with this a person's entire life + the pain of history added in.

I've felt compelled to say something when I've seen these threads recently, though I'm not on the board as often as before so I may have missed some, because it became glaringly painful how crickets would magically appear with WOC posters here would post certain things about how race was being portrayed or respected on the board. I mean, how shit is that if I can chat with all damn day during my lunch break about dick pics and toaster strudels, but not stop to read when you're expressing how something is making you feel worthless and is systemic and I'm part of the problem? Because I don't want to rock the boat? This isn't a statement towards anyone else, but it made me feel pretty pathetic and shit and small and fucked when I realized my "easy way out" was really just leaving people out to dry.

I guess all I can say is, what I THINK would be most beneficial for me is to continue to listen, and not get bogged down so much with the idea of understanding, because these are not things I can truly understand from experience, and try to be more proactive in coming from a place of validation.

[creamsiclechica]

What I imagine is frustrating, because I certainly cannot speak for the women of color who are part of this community, is that even in a place like this that we self promote our "awareness" of privilege, every few months, there's this gigantic blow up as a result of racial insensitivity and those targeted have to show deep, raw, vulnerabilities in order to get others to realize very basic concepts of covert racism. That is so unfair to me. It's not a ML problem, or a MMM, it's GBCN wide. It happened with Stellas, and others, and we've created an environment in which POC have repeatedly had to post about their most severe racist encounters to make a teachable moment about the every day injustice they endure more tangible to the rest of us, and that seems enraging to do over and over. We need to take their experience at face value immediately. We need to start recognizing it in others, and mostly importantly in ourselves, and not just when something like this happens. These are the kinds of threads that should be stickies across GBCN instead of exchange drama, etc. I post here seldomly, and I know that gives my response less weight. Acknowledging that you've read it and are absorbing it is important, but please, can we not have to do this again, put POC in our community under a microscope to dissect their experience to decide if it's warranted or not? It's so awful to witness and adds so much insult to the injuries, big and small, that society has already inflicted. I'm so sorry, @kirkette, and others, who have felt this way among friends. You deserve so much better, and please accept my humble apology.

[Deleted]

Well, I feel compelled to say that, after seeing the word micro aggression misappropriated in support of a chicken (someone is still messaging me insisting I apologize to either V or the chicken, BTW), and watching people insist that racial micro-aggression is awful but of course they themselves cannot be capable of if because tney had THEIR awakening when they threw Stella off the board (as if that were micro-aggressions' correlary to "I have black friends"), I think I personally have a better understanding of how kirkette came to a place where she began releasing walls of text. I am still worried about her, but I think I have a better understanding of the cause.

I've never experienced racism directed at me. But I have a lot of experience with sexism. And I think if I were constantly asked to explain every act of covert sexism I experience to the people engaged in it, while being told I was being shrill while doing so, I would probably lose my shit in a way that went beyond walls of text.

[redwino]

Jan 27, 2016 12:28:24 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Jan 27, 2016 12:14:18 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

I keep typing and deleting because 1. I hate arguing here (not in real life, go figure, but it makes me anxious on here). 2. Who am I to chime in on this issue? I'm white and I will never know what it's like.

But along the lines of what @stilljustash said, it shouldn't take this many pages to get it.

Everyone says they're still learning, but at what point are we done learning and we just get it? At what point are the explanations unnecessary because we see it all by ourselves, you know?

Well, its 2016 and its still super prevalent so I'm not holding my breath that things will be miraculously better with the next generation.   I hope that with each generation it DOES get at least a little better so that centuries from now it isn't an issue.

We have rich white men like Trump being given so much media coverage ( and power) spewing absolutely horrific racism.  And people are eating it up and campaigning for him.  

Does the next generation iclude the teens who just posted themselves spelling the N-word with their shirts? Excuse me if I don't think things will be better for my children.

[miso]

Jan 27, 2016 13:35:57 GMT -5 elle said:

Well, I feel compelled to say that, after seeing the word micro aggression misappropriated in support of a chicken (someone is still messaging me insisting I apologize to either V or the chicken, BTW), and watching people insist that racial micro-aggression is awful but of course they themselves cannot be capable of if because tney had THEIR awakening when they threw Stella off the board (as if that were micro-aggressions' correlary to "I have black friends"), I think I personally have a better understanding of how kirkette came to a place where she began releasing walls of text. I am still worried about her, but I think I have a better understanding of the cause.

I've never experienced racism directed at me. But I have a lot of experience with sexism. And I think if I were constantly asked to explain every act of covert sexism I experience to the people engaged in it, while being told I was being shrill while doing so, I would probably lose my shit in a way that went beyond walls of text.

No. No!

BTW, this is primarily why I left MM.

I got several PMs from various posters shaming me for listing kwynn's husband's toilet-paper-rolling madness as one of the top hilarious moments ever (or something like that), berating me that I shouldn't say such things and that I should apologize to kwynn for bringing it up.

kwynn had no issues with me.

Being admonished in a chickenshit manner behind the scenes was the last straw for me. Good or bad, I post here because people say things to my face, out in the open, and are generally held accountable.