So, are we talking about that MMM thread..

[iammalcolmx]

Toilet paper rolling???

[fryjack2]

elle. The person messaging you can't be serious. Are they trying, and failing at being funny?

[miso]

Jan 27, 2016 14:01:58 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Toilet paper rolling???

kwynn's husband (RIP) was so cheap that he would buy (or take from work? gosh, I don't remember now) scratchy, thin, see-through, industrial toilet paper (that came on big rolls for commercial use) and re-roll that on normal household toilet paper rolls for private use.

If that's not a story for the ages, I don't know what is.

[pixy0stix]

I'm still salty as hell at the response to kirkette's "threats". It's still bothering me today.

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2016 14:01:58 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Toilet paper rolling???

I don't remember all the details. But he was very frugal, so I think they would buy industrial size tp and then roll it in to smaller bundles. Something along those lines. Even kwynn laughed about it at the time.

[miso]

Jan 27, 2016 14:05:31 GMT -5 @wandering said:

Jan 27, 2016 14:01:58 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Toilet paper rolling???

I don't remember all the details. But he was very frugal, so I think they would buy industrial size tp and then roll it in to smaller bundles. Something along those lines. Even kwynn laughed about it at the time.

Yes, she did! Thank you!

[Jermys]

Jan 27, 2016 12:14:18 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

I keep typing and deleting because 1. I hate arguing here (not in real life, go figure, but it makes me anxious on here). 2. Who am I to chime in on this issue? I'm white and I will never know what it's like.

But along the lines of what @stilljustash said, it shouldn't take this many pages to get it.

Everyone says they're still learning, but at what point are we done learning and we just get it? At what point are the explanations unnecessary because we see it all by ourselves, you know?

I'm pretty well versed and I'm still learning. But I get what you're saying. 

It shouldn't take white people saying something for black people to be believed. And white people should never ever ever downplay or diminish the experience of a black person. It's like when men have to speak up for sexist behavior to be believed or when they man plain your feelings down. If someone tells you they're being hurt, do you have to demand proof? 

[iammalcolmx]

Jan 27, 2016 14:04:48 GMT -5 miso said:

Jan 27, 2016 14:01:58 GMT -5 iammalcolmx said:

Toilet paper rolling???

kwynn's husband (RIP) was so cheap that he would either buy (or take from work? gosh, I don't remember now) scratchy, thin, see-through, industrial toilet paper (that came on big rolls for commercial use) and re-roll that on normal household toilet paper rolls for private use.

If that's not a story for the ages, I don't know what is.

I once made the mistake of buying bad toilet paper. H was only using the restroom at work until we went through that stuff, LOL!!!

I don't even know what to say about the toilet paper rolling, and YEAH that is a story for the ages. Kinda like me and the suit sliding!!!

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2016 14:09:15 GMT -5 Jermys said:

Jan 27, 2016 12:14:18 GMT -5 CurlyQ284 said:

I keep typing and deleting because 1. I hate arguing here (not in real life, go figure, but it makes me anxious on here). 2. Who am I to chime in on this issue? I'm white and I will never know what it's like.

But along the lines of what @stilljustash said, it shouldn't take this many pages to get it.

Everyone says they're still learning, but at what point are we done learning and we just get it? At what point are the explanations unnecessary because we see it all by ourselves, you know?

I'm pretty well versed and I'm still learning. But I get what you're saying. 

It shouldn't take white people saying something for black people to be believed. And white people should never ever ever downplay or diminish the experience of a black person. It's like when men have to speak up for sexist behavior to be believed or when they man plain your feelings down. If someone tells you they're being hurt, do you have to demand proof? 

Yes. The asking for receipts was irritating as hell.

[knx9211]

Jan 27, 2016 14:12:24 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

My H once told me he prefers the thin, scratchy toilet paper. BULL SHIT.

MINE, TOO.

Also I'm embarrassed that this is my first contribution to this thread. But I have been reading and listening and taking everything in, I swear.

[eddy]

I feel weird that I haven't posted in here as a regular. I am still back on page 26.

I just wanted to state I am reading and thinking.

[miso]

Jan 27, 2016 14:17:06 GMT -5 sfy said:

Jan 27, 2016 14:05:31 GMT -5 @wandering said:

I don't remember all the details. But he was very frugal, so I think they would buy industrial size tp and then roll it in to smaller bundles. Something along those lines. Even kwynn laughed about it at the time.

I don't think anyone thought it was anything but hilarious, but after he committed suicide, it felt like we probably shouldn't joke about those eccentricities, which were possibly symptomatic of a larger issue.

I don't think I deserved to be shamed. I stand by that. At the very least, a post like yours just now WITHIN THE THREAD FOR ALL TO READ ON THE BOARD would have been preferable and appropriate.

And in no way did I bring it up in a manner that was less than simply matter-of-fact.

You ask for the best moments? You get the best moments. A list without that toilet-paper-rolling incident would be no list at all.

[sugarbear]

Jan 27, 2016 11:30:00 GMT -5 05heel said:

Man, I'm still salty as hell about this thread. Glad everyone is back to feeling awesome about themselves I suppose. Just remember that this is some basic shit and you should be embarrassed to find anything shared in here so fucking relevatory. Why do I post here again?

But isn't that the point? For those of us who are not POC, some of these ideas, charts, etc., ARE revelatory. As a teacher, I've been to countless diversity retreats, inclusion seminars, etc., etc., etc., and I still maintain that I've learned more about my privilege-- hell, I've been more self-reflective-- having read CEP (and now ML and MMM) for years.

Obviously, I can't begin to understand how frustrating that is for you; obviously, one aspect of my privilege is that I don't have a clue what this all feels like. But I'm not the only one in here who is trying, who has read the whole thread, and who pledges to do better. 

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2016 14:29:30 GMT -5 sugarbear said:

Jan 27, 2016 11:30:00 GMT -5 05heel said:

Man, I'm still salty as hell about this thread. Glad everyone is back to feeling awesome about themselves I suppose. Just remember that this is some basic shit and you should be embarrassed to find anything shared in here so fucking relevatory. Why do I post here again?

But isn't that the point? For those of us who are not POC, some of these ideas, charts, etc., ARE revelatory. As a teacher, I've been to countless diversity retreats, inclusion seminars, etc., etc., etc., and I still maintain that I've learned more about my privilege-- hell, I've been more self-reflective-- having read CEP (and now ML and MMM) for years.

Obviously, I can't begin to understand how frustrating that is for you; obviously, one aspect of my privilege is that I don't have a clue what this all feels like. But I'm not the only one in here who is trying, who has read the whole thread, and who pledges to do better. 

IT IS NOT THEIR JOB TO EDUCATE YOU. I think people have said that a dozen times. This is like someone insisting I owe them legal advice because I happen to be a lawyer and will share my thoughts on legal issues when I feel like it. That sounds crazy, doesn't it?

I mean, good for you- good for all of us- for wanting to do better. But people are allowed to complain about covert racism without also being obligated to educate those engaged in it. If you really want more education about this, read some books, take a class at your community college, or ask for referrals for private tutoring from instructors at the diversity retreats you have attended. Don't expect people on a message board to donate their time to teach you.

[orangello]

Jan 27, 2016 13:35:57 GMT -5 elle said:

Well, I feel compelled to say that, after seeing the word micro aggression misappropriated in support of a chicken (someone is still messaging me insisting I apologize to either V or the chicken, BTW), and watching people insist that racial micro-aggression is awful but of course they themselves cannot be capable of if because tney had THEIR awakening when they threw Stella off the board (as if that were micro-aggressions' correlary to "I have black friends"), I think I personally have a better understanding of how kirkette came to a place where she began releasing walls of text. I am still worried about her, but I think I have a better understanding of the cause.

I've never experienced racism directed at me. But I have a lot of experience with sexism. And I think if I were constantly asked to explain every act of covert sexism I experience to the people engaged in it, while being told I was being shrill while doing so, I would probably lose my shit in a way that went beyond walls of text.

Someone on this board seriously thinks you should apologize to V? The poster who used #microaggressions as a JOKE in the thread detailing repeatedly why that isn't a joking matter?  That is some fucked up shit right there.

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2016 14:03:21 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

elle. The person messaging you can't be serious. Are they trying, and failing at being funny?

No. I directly asked her if she was punking me and she definitely is not. She just clarified in another PM that my lack of attentiveness to the type of cuisine is a micro-aggression to her.

[sugarbear]

Jan 27, 2016 14:44:24 GMT -5 elle said:

Jan 27, 2016 14:29:30 GMT -5 sugarbear said:

But isn't that the point? For those of us who are not POC, some of these ideas, charts, etc., ARE revelatory. As a teacher, I've been to countless diversity retreats, inclusion seminars, etc., etc., etc., and I still maintain that I've learned more about my privilege-- hell, I've been more self-reflective-- having read CEP (and now ML and MMM) for years.

Obviously, I can't begin to understand how frustrating that is for you; obviously, one aspect of my privilege is that I don't have a clue what this all feels like. But I'm not the only one in here who is trying, who has read the whole thread, and who pledges to do better. 

IT IS NOT THEIR JOB TO EDUCATE YOU. I think people have said that a dozen times. This is like someone insisting I owe them legal advice because I happen to be a lawyer and will share my thoughts on legal issues when I feel like it. That sounds crazy, doesn't it?

I mean, good for you- good for all of us- for wanting to do better. But people are allowed to complain about covert racism without also being obligated to educate those engaged in it. If you really want more education about this, read some books, take a class at your community college, or ask for referrals for private tutoring from instructors at the diversity retreats you have attended. Don't expect people on a message board to donate their time to teach you.

I get this.
I've read books, I've been to seminars. I simply said that I learn more here. That's all I said.

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2016 11:16:52 GMT -5 @lazerus24 said:

Jan 26, 2016 20:05:12 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

I hadn't seen the "young philanthropist" thread on MM until today and find it probably the most appalling example of the belittling that booby was doing. Well, and add in V because she was horrifying as well. 

I inserted myself into something before being aware of this backstory. I was honestly shocked when I took the time to go back and see all of the ways booby has been working. It's so appalling. We all know I certainly wasn't defending booby - but I added to the fodder and I'm so sorry kirkette.

Yeah MM just isn't my " scene" anymore TBH so I had NO FREAKING IDEA where this was all coming from. Now that I see the way you were treated @kirkette... I would have snapped FOREVER ago. 

Also Young Philanthropist is a KILLER band name. SOMEONE DO IT. 

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2016 13:57:26 GMT -5 miso said:

Jan 27, 2016 13:35:57 GMT -5 elle said:

Well, I feel compelled to say that, after seeing the word micro aggression misappropriated in support of a chicken (someone is still messaging me insisting I apologize to either V or the chicken, BTW), and watching people insist that racial micro-aggression is awful but of course they themselves cannot be capable of if because tney had THEIR awakening when they threw Stella off the board (as if that were micro-aggressions' correlary to "I have black friends"), I think I personally have a better understanding of how kirkette came to a place where she began releasing walls of text. I am still worried about her, but I think I have a better understanding of the cause.

I've never experienced racism directed at me. But I have a lot of experience with sexism. And I think if I were constantly asked to explain every act of covert sexism I experience to the people engaged in it, while being told I was being shrill while doing so, I would probably lose my shit in a way that went beyond walls of text.

No. No!

BTW, this is primarily why I left MM.

I got several PMs from various posters shaming me for listing kwynn's husband's toilet-paper-rolling madness as one of the top hilarious moments ever (or something like that), berating me that I shouldn't say such things and that I should apologize to kwynn for bringing it up.

kwynn had no issues with me.

Being admonished in a chickenshit manner behind the scenes was the last straw for me. Good or bad, I post here because people say things to my face, out in the open, and are generally held accountable.

Kwynn even SAID that her H LOVED being frugal.. and would LOVE that he is remembered for that. I mean if we can't talk about something someone was PROUD of after their passing we lose their memory. 

[cville]

Jan 27, 2016 14:53:01 GMT -5 elle said:

Jan 27, 2016 14:03:21 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

elle. The person messaging you can't be serious. Are they trying, and failing at being funny?

No. I directly asked her if she was punking me and she definitely is not. She just clarified in another PM that my lack of attentiveness to the type of cuisine is a micro-aggression to her.

Motherfucking chicken.

No one has PMd me.

[KateAggie]

Jan 27, 2016 14:29:30 GMT -5 sugarbear said:

Jan 27, 2016 11:30:00 GMT -5 05heel said:

Man, I'm still salty as hell about this thread. Glad everyone is back to feeling awesome about themselves I suppose. Just remember that this is some basic shit and you should be embarrassed to find anything shared in here so fucking relevatory. Why do I post here again?

But isn't that the point? For those of us who are not POC, some of these ideas, charts, etc., ARE revelatory. As a teacher, I've been to countless diversity retreats, inclusion seminars, etc., etc., etc., and I still maintain that I've learned more about my privilege-- hell, I've been more self-reflective-- having read CEP (and now ML and MMM) for years.

Obviously, I can't begin to understand how frustrating that is for you; obviously, one aspect of my privilege is that I don't have a clue what this all feels like. But I'm not the only one in here who is trying, who has read the whole thread, and who pledges to do better. 

Another "doesn't even go here," but the point isn't that you're learning. It's that all of us damn white people have to have it spelled out again, and again, and again, and expect POC to be thrilled when we finally have our dim bulbs go on. That doesn't mean that 05heel can't be damn tired of teaching the lesson, just because we have to have it told to us again and again.

[sfy]

Jan 27, 2016 15:48:39 GMT -5 @savestheday said:

Jan 27, 2016 13:57:26 GMT -5 miso said:

No. No!

BTW, this is primarily why I left MM.

I got several PMs from various posters shaming me for listing kwynn's husband's toilet-paper-rolling madness as one of the top hilarious moments ever (or something like that), berating me that I shouldn't say such things and that I should apologize to kwynn for bringing it up.

kwynn had no issues with me.

Being admonished in a chickenshit manner behind the scenes was the last straw for me. Good or bad, I post here because people say things to my face, out in the open, and are generally held accountable.

Kwynn even SAID that her H LOVED being frugal.. and would LOVE that he is remembered for that. I mean if we can't talk about something someone was PROUD of after their passing we lose their memory.

Well, that obviously makes it a whole other story. 

[FastHands]

Jan 27, 2016 16:07:12 GMT -5 KateAggie said:

Jan 27, 2016 14:29:30 GMT -5 sugarbear said:

But isn't that the point? For those of us who are not POC, some of these ideas, charts, etc., ARE revelatory. As a teacher, I've been to countless diversity retreats, inclusion seminars, etc., etc., etc., and I still maintain that I've learned more about my privilege-- hell, I've been more self-reflective-- having read CEP (and now ML and MMM) for years.

Obviously, I can't begin to understand how frustrating that is for you; obviously, one aspect of my privilege is that I don't have a clue what this all feels like. But I'm not the only one in here who is trying, who has read the whole thread, and who pledges to do better. 

Another "doesn't even go here," but the point isn't that you're learning. It's that all of us damn white people have to have it spelled out again, and again, and again, and expect POC to be thrilled when we finally have our dim bulbs go on. That doesn't mean that 05heel can't be damn tired of teaching the lesson, just because we have to have it told to us again and again.

Right. I also think sometimes people think there has to be a unified position from POC or something. You can have one person who, through unfathomable patience, stands in front of aggressions and is still willing to answer questions that may in themselves be offensive (if well-intentioned), while other people are just pissed that these conversations (still/ever) have to happen. Or you can have these feelings expressed by the same person at different times, or shit at the same time. 

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2016 16:17:26 GMT -5 @koko said:

Jan 27, 2016 14:53:01 GMT -5 elle said:

No. I directly asked her if she was punking me and she definitely is not. She just clarified in another PM that my lack of attentiveness to the type of cuisine is a micro-aggression to her.

I have never wished I was rich more in my entire life, just so I could offer you one million American dollars to tell me who the fuck is sending you these PMs.

You are rich in knowledge.

[cleo29]

Jan 27, 2016 15:48:39 GMT -5 @savestheday said:

Jan 27, 2016 13:57:26 GMT -5 miso said:

No. No!

BTW, this is primarily why I left MM.

I got several PMs from various posters shaming me for listing kwynn's husband's toilet-paper-rolling madness as one of the top hilarious moments ever (or something like that), berating me that I shouldn't say such things and that I should apologize to kwynn for bringing it up.

kwynn had no issues with me.

Being admonished in a chickenshit manner behind the scenes was the last straw for me. Good or bad, I post here because people say things to my face, out in the open, and are generally held accountable.

Kwynn even SAID that her H LOVED being frugal.. and would LOVE that he is remembered for that. I mean if we can't talk about something someone was PROUD of after their passing we lose their memory. 

Ooh, that would annoy me. (the people scolding you when it was uncalled for).

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2016 17:02:53 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

Jan 27, 2016 16:44:51 GMT -5 elle said:

You are rich in knowledge.

Read the MMM thread on microagressions.

[Deleted]

Um, isn't mishy admitting up there that she sent the PM? I feel like I'm the only person who sees her post!

[Deleted]

Jan 27, 2016 20:19:51 GMT -5 @jezebel said:

Um, isn't mishy admitting up there that she sent the PM? I feel like I'm the only person who sees her post!

If so, it's a false confession. There are apparently more than one (or two!) people who think I displayed racial insensitivity to the chicken.

[cville]

Jan 27, 2016 21:05:05 GMT -5 @tambcat said:

I hope I don't end up hating myeslf for asking, but why ISN'T brushing off the distinction between Cuban and Peruvian chicken offensive? Isn't this an all look (cook, taste) the same thing?

eta: I do agree the chicken talk/joking in this thread was ridiculous. I skimmed over it in the MMM thread so not opining on that one.

I think it absolutely would be. But since what happened here was a perversion of that valid point in the interest of being demeaning and cutesy, I still say ... motherfucking chicken.

[cville]

Why is this post shrinking?