What is Hamilton?

[eponinepontmercy]

Apr 5, 2016 7:15:40 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Look what I came across today.

www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2016/04/a_hamilton_critic_on_why_the_musical_isn_t_so_revolutionary.html

This annoys me, even if there are some good points.  Miranda is telling one particular story in a particular way.  A musical can't be all things to all people.  

[cville]

Apr 5, 2016 7:15:40 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Look what I came across today.

www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2016/04/a_hamilton_critic_on_why_the_musical_isn_t_so_revolutionary.html

Hold up, a piece of art is not universally liked and there isn't consensus on its import and value?! I'M SHOCKED.


Eta: Awesome. Wow.

[cc]

watching those covers makes me miss my HS chorus days

[rupertpenny]

Apr 5, 2016 7:15:40 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Look what I came across today.

www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2016/04/a_hamilton_critic_on_why_the_musical_isn_t_so_revolutionary.html

So this is by a public history person and public history is all about interpretation. And in my experience (I have an MA in history, have done some public history coursework) public history people are all about THEIR interpretation and not super open to other viewpoints. This woman's opinions do not surprise me.

And of course there is enormous value to exploring the history of women, people of color, and other marginalized groups. No one disputes this. But that doesn't mean we should stop paying attention to the founding fathers or other dead white guys. And there is the eternal problem that these other groups are not very present in the historical record which Miranda references in "Burn."

[underwaterrhymes]

Apr 5, 2016 7:15:40 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Look what I came across today.

www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2016/04/a_hamilton_critic_on_why_the_musical_isn_t_so_revolutionary.html

I do think she makes good points.

From a performance perspective, it's groundbreaking.

But historically it's not. I get her concern that people might think that because there are people of color playing all of the major roles except King George that it's a culturally aware show, when really it's still a show about white historical figures.

I still want to see it.

[05heel]

Apr 5, 2016 7:53:24 GMT -5 eponinepontmercy said:

Apr 5, 2016 7:15:40 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Look what I came across today.

www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2016/04/a_hamilton_critic_on_why_the_musical_isn_t_so_revolutionary.html

This annoys me, even if there are some good points.  Miranda is telling one particular story in a particular way.  A musical can't be all things to all people.  

True, but this one seems to be trying especially hard, and missing the mark in a few big ways.  I think that's the entire point. 

[jaybird]

@this I think you're a This American Life fan too, right? Have you seen the LMM musical he did for them, 21 Chump Street? I think you can still get it from the TAL website and there are clips on YouTube

youtu.be/UvK00CMqG-g

[thebulldog]

I cannot keep up with all the Ham4ham and other things in the onlines. It's crazy. Lin-Manuel's twitter feed alone is insane. He is about my age so all his pop culture references are spot on.
I know we would be friends....just like Michelle Obama.

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[otowngirl]

Apr 5, 2016 10:31:51 GMT -5 thebulldog said:

I cannot keep up with all the Ham4ham and other things in the onlines. It's crazy. Lin-Manuel's twitter feed alone is insane. He is about my age so all his pop culture references are spot on.
I know we would be friends....just like Michelle Obama.

Sent from my SM-G900P using proboards

I just started following Lin on Twitter. Why does he Tweet like he's running out of time?

[otowngirl]

Also that reception video is everything. I lol'd several times because it's obvious that he is not a natural singer AND OMG IS THAT GEORGE WASHINGTON ON THE FAR RIGHT?

[otowngirl]

Apr 4, 2016 18:27:42 GMT -5 lilibet said:

Apr 4, 2016 14:30:15 GMT -5 Beeps (WOT?*) said:

There are several more Hamilton covers by them on YouTube. I clicked and am currently listening to "It's Quiet Uptown." They are from the Curie High School. The group is their vocal ensemble Musicality.

Sometimes reading the comments is a good thing, right?

I'm having a good day.

I like this one. HS is so much cooler now than when I was in it.... lol

These kids are insane, man!

[andwhat]

Apr 5, 2016 9:46:54 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Apr 5, 2016 7:15:40 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Look what I came across today.

www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2016/04/a_hamilton_critic_on_why_the_musical_isn_t_so_revolutionary.html

I do think she makes good points.

From a performance perspective, it's groundbreaking.

But historically it's not. I get her concern that people might think that because there are people of color playing all of the major roles except King George that it's a culturally aware show, when really it's still a show about white historical figures.

I still want to see it.

This is how I feel. Musically it is amazing. I love all the hip hop references you can pick up...Outkast, Eminem, etc. But while listening to it I also think damn this is bootstrap-y. And even though I can see the issue with the cast being majorly non-white, I'm sorry I can't get mad at that. 

[thebulldog]

Apr 5, 2016 11:21:27 GMT -5 otowngirl said:

Apr 5, 2016 10:31:51 GMT -5 thebulldog said:

I cannot keep up with all the Ham4ham and other things in the onlines. It's crazy. Lin-Manuel's twitter feed alone is insane. He is about my age so all his pop culture references are spot on.
I know we would be friends....just like Michelle Obama.

Sent from my SM-G900P using proboards

I just started following Lin on Twitter. Why does he Tweet like he's running out of time?

I think he actually does it too not like George Takai, and others, who have people do it. I had to turn off notifications from his tweets on my phone bc it was buzzed at work alllll day.

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[lilibet]

Apr 5, 2016 11:22:07 GMT -5 otowngirl said:

Also that reception video is everything. I lol'd several times because it's obvious that he is not a natural singer AND OMG IS THAT GEORGE WASHINGTON ON THE FAR RIGHT?

Yes! The guy that directs Hamilton is there too I think.

[jeaniebueller]

Do you guys watch Turn on amc? The new season starts in a few weeks and Alexander Hamilton will be in the show.

[chittybangbang]

Every time I see this thread pop back up I answer the "what is Hamilton" question in my head with "what I've been singing along to the last 6 days thanks to this thread".

[fortnightlily]

Apr 6, 2016 6:57:31 GMT -5 @mrsbecky said:

The music is definitely bootstrap-y (I'm sure the actual play is too but I've only heard the music) but I think part of that is to contrast Hamilton with the other founding fathers. As he says, he doesn't have Washington's name or land. He didnt have Mount Vernon or Monticello or family money to fall back on if the whole "American experiment" crashed and burned. So in terms of who he was hanging out with at the time, the bootstraps part of the story is pretty significant. I think that's part of why LLM chose to make Hamilton's story into this musical, and not George Washington's. Of course LLM hits you over the head with it, and we all know that for every bootstraps success story, there's a hundred or a thousand people who did not end up as Secretary of Treasury. But I can see why LLM chose to emphasize that aspect of it.

I haven't had the good luck of seeing it, but it's a sung-through musical. I'm pretty sure I read there are only two things that aren't in the soundtrack. One short dialog scene about Laurens's death and the curtain call.

[underwaterrhymes]

Apr 6, 2016 6:57:31 GMT -5 @mrsbecky said:

The music is definitely bootstrap-y (I'm sure the actual play is too but I've only heard the music) but I think part of that is to contrast Hamilton with the other founding fathers. As he says, he doesn't have Washington's name or land. He didnt have Mount Vernon or Monticello or family money to fall back on if the whole "American experiment" crashed and burned. So in terms of who he was hanging out with at the time, the bootstraps part of the story is pretty significant. I think that's part of why LLM chose to make Hamilton's story into this musical, and not George Washington's. Of course LLM hits you over the head with it, and we all know that for every bootstraps success story, there's a hundred or a thousand people who did not end up as Secretary of Treasury. But I can see why LLM chose to emphasize that aspect of it.

I don't think the bootstraps part is in itself an issue. Stories about people who overcome tremendous challenges can be inspiring.

The problem is when people use a story of someone overcoming tremendous challenges as an example for how everyone could and should be. They're inspirational stories because it is often near impossible for the majority of people to do, but far too many people see them as proof anyone can do it.

[jeaniebueller]

Apr 5, 2016 23:17:29 GMT -5 @licia said:

Apr 5, 2016 21:09:23 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Do you guys watch Turn on amc? The new season starts in a few weeks and Alexander Hamilton will be in the show.

This show is my everything.

I'm really hopeful that the John Andre/Benjamin Tallmadge storyline gets to go to completion.

I watched it on reruns (maybe it was season 2?) when I was on maternity leave in 2014, but really need to get back into it. I liked the show a lot! I just can't keep up with all of the shows I like 

[msmerymac]

Apr 5, 2016 8:38:32 GMT -5 cville said:

Apr 5, 2016 7:15:40 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Look what I came across today.

www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2016/04/a_hamilton_critic_on_why_the_musical_isn_t_so_revolutionary.html

Hold up, a piece of art is not universally liked and there isn't consensus on its import and value?! I'M SHOCKED.


Eta: Awesome. Wow.

I see what you did there.

[msmerymac]

Apr 5, 2016 7:15:40 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Look what I came across today.

www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2016/04/a_hamilton_critic_on_why_the_musical_isn_t_so_revolutionary.html

I get her point about white history. And, shockingly, slavery was legal in New York until after Hamilton's death.

BUT I've always assumed (perhaps falsely?) that part of the appeal of the Hamilton subject matter for LMM and others who have seen it are the nebulous racial origins of Alexander Hamilton. Namely that his mother was possibly biracial, althoughHamilton obviously presented as white during his lifetime, as he otherwise would not have come close to being as successful as he was.

[eponinepontmercy]

Apr 6, 2016 7:05:56 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Apr 6, 2016 6:57:31 GMT -5 @mrsbecky said:

The music is definitely bootstrap-y (I'm sure the actual play is too but I've only heard the music) but I think part of that is to contrast Hamilton with the other founding fathers. As he says, he doesn't have Washington's name or land. He didnt have Mount Vernon or Monticello or family money to fall back on if the whole "American experiment" crashed and burned. So in terms of who he was hanging out with at the time, the bootstraps part of the story is pretty significant. I think that's part of why LLM chose to make Hamilton's story into this musical, and not George Washington's. Of course LLM hits you over the head with it, and we all know that for every bootstraps success story, there's a hundred or a thousand people who did not end up as Secretary of Treasury. But I can see why LLM chose to emphasize that aspect of it.

I don't think the bootstraps part is in itself an issue. Stories about people who overcome tremendous challenges can be inspiring.

The problem is when people use a story of someone overcoming tremendous challenges as an example for how everyone could and should be. They're inspirational stories because it is often near impossible for the majority of people to do, but far too many people see them as proof anyone can do it.

Not everyone can happen to come to a country on the verge of an unprecedented revolution and end up right hand man to the man who will become the first leader.

As bootstrap stories go, this one is pretty specific and hard to extrapolate.   

[eponinepontmercy]

Apr 6, 2016 8:14:22 GMT -5 @bunnybean said:

Apr 6, 2016 7:45:56 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I get her point about white history. And, shockingly, slavery was legal in New York until after Hamilton's death.

BUT I've always assumed (perhaps falsely?) that part of the appeal of the Hamilton subject matter for LMM and others who have seen it are the nebulous racial origins of Alexander Hamilton. Namely that his mother was possibly biracial, althoughHamilton obviously presented as white during his lifetime, as he otherwise would not have come close to being as successful as he was.

Creole bastard!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDjvRGjIICQ

Have you seen this?  It was cut, but it's awesome.  Apparently, when Paul Giamatti came to see the show, LMM basically shouted this entire thing at him.

[underwaterrhymes]

Apr 6, 2016 8:20:04 GMT -5 eponinepontmercy said:

Apr 6, 2016 7:05:56 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

I don't think the bootstraps part is in itself an issue. Stories about people who overcome tremendous challenges can be inspiring.

The problem is when people use a story of someone overcoming tremendous challenges as an example for how everyone could and should be. They're inspirational stories because it is often near impossible for the majority of people to do, but far too many people see them as proof anyone can do it.

Not everyone can happen to come to a country on the verge of an unprecedented revolution and end up right hand man to the man who will become the first leader.

As bootstrap stories go, this one is pretty specific and hard to extrapolate.   

Right.

But upthread someone said that the GOP LOVES this story. So some are definitely extrapolating.

[thebulldog]

Apr 6, 2016 8:14:22 GMT -5 @bunnybean said:

Apr 6, 2016 7:45:56 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I get her point about white history. And, shockingly, slavery was legal in New York until after Hamilton's death.

BUT I've always assumed (perhaps falsely?) that part of the appeal of the Hamilton subject matter for LMM and others who have seen it are the nebulous racial origins of Alexander Hamilton. Namely that his mother was possibly biracial, althoughHamilton obviously presented as white during his lifetime, as he otherwise would not have come close to being as successful as he was.

Creole bastard!

Son of a whore and a Scotsman......

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[thebulldog]

Apr 6, 2016 8:21:20 GMT -5 eponinepontmercy said:

Apr 6, 2016 8:14:22 GMT -5 @bunnybean said:

Creole bastard!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDjvRGjIICQ

Have you seen this?  It was cut, but it's awesome.  Apparently, when Paul Giamatti came to see the show, LMM basically shouted this entire thing at him.

Now i need to find a photo of LMM and Paul G. I remember that miniseries.

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[sugarglider]

Apr 6, 2016 11:31:28 GMT -5 thebulldog said:

Apr 6, 2016 8:21:20 GMT -5 eponinepontmercy said:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDjvRGjIICQ

Have you seen this?  It was cut, but it's awesome.  Apparently, when Paul Giamatti came to see the show, LMM basically shouted this entire thing at him.

Now i need to find a photo of LMM and Paul G. I remember that miniseries.

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[andwhat]

Now I am down the Ham4Ham rabbit hole. And H is like WTF are you listening to. That is the worst rapping ever. How are we married?

[thebulldog]

Apr 6, 2016 11:53:13 GMT -5 sugarglider said:

Apr 6, 2016 11:31:28 GMT -5 thebulldog said:

Now i need to find a photo of LMM and Paul G. I remember that miniseries.

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Holy. Shit.


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[otowngirl]

Apr 6, 2016 13:56:55 GMT -5 thebulldog said:

Apr 6, 2016 11:53:13 GMT -5 sugarglider said:

Holy. Shit.


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Yeah I've already sent this to pretty much everyone I know. Even those who aren't really that into Hamilton. LOL.