This is no longer about post about cute kids

[starburst604]

I did just read this post finally, and I'll be honest that I'm part of the problem because if I'd read Cookie's comment before anyone commented, I would have cringed, felt angry, and waited for someone more...important/educated/insightful than me to call her out? I often feel in over my head in a lot of posts, so I read and absorb rather than speak. I do feel that what I've learned here over the years has made me better IRL though, in regards to speaking up about social injustices.

I want to do better, do more though. I'm really sad to see that people have deactivated as a result of what I know is just one of many horrible posts.

[laurenh]

I literally have no words other than I'm sorry for what was said, for what so many of you have been through, and what you continue to face on a day to day basis - it's truly heartbreaking and sickening and there is no excuse for it.

Thank you for speaking up and being angry - it is awful to think about, but I promise I'm listening and I will do better with my girls and my day to day actions, not the least of which is starting out by reading many of the books recommended.

[mishy]

Aug 31, 2016 19:43:22 GMT -5 origami said:

Aug 31, 2016 19:34:18 GMT -5 rugbywife said:

Actually, I think it is telling that people are more likely to be 'too harsh' in parenting threads, and nobody says boo. But then when it is race related, it's like, oh, can't we be nicer?

This board seems much less harsh to me than CEP (could be bc I'm on it less though) but yes, if you get more offended by BF vs FF comments than racist comments you need to examine yourself.

for the cheap seats. also sub any mmm controversial topic in for BF vs FF as appropriate.

[Deleted]

Aug 31, 2016 18:52:56 GMT -5 TamiTaylor said:

I have to say, it's infuriating to see active posters who post all day damn just ghost on racial threads. Like we can see you still posting in other threads.

I haven't been posting "all day", but I only realized what this thread became later into the afternoon, and wanted to take the time to read as much of it as I could, and absorb it before responding.  I've also been examining my attitudes, my privilege, and my reactions, what would I say, what would I do, how do I think, am I complicit?    Basically I've been doing a lot of reflecting this evening.  I don't really have anything to add that hasn't already been said by others.  

It really bothers me when people just deactivate instead of learning and becoming better people.  Lord knows I've said some not-so-great things on her out of ignorance and from my place of privilege, but I've really tried to embrace the lessons that I (and others) have learned here and am trying to grow into a better, more educated person who uses her privilege to act.  I this case, I didn't know what was going on until I was tagged late into the thread.  Should I have?  I'd love to live in a world (and post on a board) where a multi-page post about cute babies doesn't mean someone has said something stupid/fucked up/racist.  But I guess I should know better than that by now.  

[Deleted]

Aug 31, 2016 19:25:55 GMT -5 t said:

Dammit we lost good people again. I'm sorry that we are still here after so many powerful discussions.

Who did we lose?  I don't "know" a lot of people on here, but if someone deactivates because of a frank discussion/calling out of hurtful and insensitive comments, then I'm not sure I really want them to stay as part of our community.   Anyone who wants to open themselves up, be vulnerable, and learn from the shit that happens here is welcome to stay.  But that's just my opinion.

[Deleted]

Aug 31, 2016 20:44:27 GMT -5 chilerellanos said:

Aug 31, 2016 20:43:35 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Who did we lose?  I don't "know" a lot of people on here, but if someone deactivates because of a frank discussion/calling out of hurtful and insensitive comments, then I'm not sure I really want them to stay as part of our community.   Anyone who wants to open themselves up, be vulnerable, and learn from the shit that happens here is welcome to stay.  But that's just my opinion.

Natariu and wandering.

Oh crap.  I completely rescind my previous statement.   POC should not have to sit here and put up with our racism.  I'm so very sorry that they have left us.

ETA:  And here I go thinking about how this thread has affected WHITE PEOPLE LIKE ME, without taking a minute to think about how it affected others.   I'm an idiot.  Still reflecting, still examining.  

[rex]

i ignored this thread until tonight because we all think our kids are cute. boring. but wow...

what the fuck is wrong with some of you?! get your shit together. read, learn, LISTEN. enough is enough.

[lindsaymg]

Aug 31, 2016 20:03:21 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Aug 31, 2016 18:54:15 GMT -5 bex said:

Yeahhhhh I've been thinking the same thing.

IMHO those are the true blue real assholes.
Navel gazing about stupid ass nosy drama, and then rolling up with, "I was busy. I don't read. I didn't know!".


Lying liars who lie.
Boo boo kitty, you're not slick with your chucklefuckery.
Bystanders, man ...

Fuck fake friends for real!

I have a question. When these things happen and women don't see it until 13 pages later, do you value white women saying "sorry, this is bad". I find multiple pages of comments that don't have something valuable to contribute lacking in sincerity. I know that isn't what the posters intend at all. I write posts, they seem so meaningless and not substantive so I erase them.

I want to be seen as a valuable contributor, do the pages of "I'm sorry" resonate with the POC on this board?

I want to do better. I came back to the post well after the initial call out/change in the direction of the post. Tell me, as someone whose opinion and perspective I highly value, what are the most valuable contributions I can make to these posts?

I will always call out a poster if someone hadn't already done so, but after the call out.

I feel like a lot of women might feel like me. Help us be the friends you deserve.

ETA: I did send Natariru a private Facebook message expressing my sadness and hoped she would come back as that seemed more sincere.

Edited to fix egregious grammatical error.

[lauren170]

Aug 31, 2016 20:03:05 GMT -5 anna7602 said:

Aug 31, 2016 19:48:24 GMT -5 lauren170 said:

Also, this was a stupid post to begin with.

Feel free to make a list of topics least likely to turn up an insensitive remark or micro-aggression. I mean, maybe it's stupid of me to simply walk out of my house since that's what seems to prompt remarks IRL. 

ETA: TamiTaylor, this is the shit that comes up when you basically force people to check in and prove they're here. Wow, profound, huh? 

1. I'm not just checking in. I'm offering support to @kirkette (and the entire board that was hurt), as I've previously personally promised her I would not be silent.
2. I said it was stupid because I don't compare my kid to other kids like a beauty contest - and the original post was "when you compare your kid to other kids..." It was a shallow post to begin with - before the racist bullshit.

[irishbride2]

Omfg

I avoided this thread and just now started reading. Same shit, different day. You think at least regs would start to get a clue. Jesus.

[bugandbibs]

Damn people. I have spend the last week answering bullshit questions from my new coworkers like "where are you from?" and "how did you get your name?" while they try to be in with me because of the travels in Asia making sweeping "positive" statements.

I'm so sick of this. Stop burying your head in the sand and acting like you don't fucking know better.

[mishy]

Aug 31, 2016 20:56:55 GMT -5 lauren170 said:

Aug 31, 2016 20:03:05 GMT -5 anna7602 said:

Feel free to make a list of topics least likely to turn up an insensitive remark or micro-aggression. I mean, maybe it's stupid of me to simply walk out of my house since that's what seems to prompt remarks IRL. 

ETA: TamiTaylor , this is the shit that comes up when you basically force people to check in and prove they're here. Wow, profound, huh? 

1. I'm not just checking in. I'm offering support to @kirkette (and the entire board that was hurt), as I've previously personally promised her I would not be silent.
2. I said it was stupid because I don't compare my kid to other kids like a beauty contest - and the original post was "when you compare your kid to other kids..." It was a shallow post to begin with - before the racist bullshit.

I can't speak for anna7602 but when i read your post, ending it the way you did seemed to trivialize what transpired. i interpret that kind of comment at the end as indicating that you don't care as much as you purported to care or you are uncomfortable and have to end with something "lighter" (i.e., my comfort is more important than the weight of these issues)

[cobber06]

I tend to not speak up when I feel that others are able to speak more eloquently, but I need to be better.

This board has helped me recognize biases that I have. I am getting better at recognizing microagressions I have committed. I find myself reflecting on past comments and behaviors and questioning if it was racist. I'm discovering that if I need to ask, my behavior was likely inappropriate.

I also recognize that it is my job to educate myself. I should not expect the benefit of the doubt for shitty behavior because I am a "nice Midwesterner".

[lauren170]

Aug 31, 2016 21:10:04 GMT -5 mishy said:

Aug 31, 2016 20:56:55 GMT -5 lauren170 said:

1. I'm not just checking in. I'm offering support to @kirkette (and the entire board that was hurt), as I've previously personally promised her I would not be silent.
2. I said it was stupid because I don't compare my kid to other kids like a beauty contest - and the original post was "when you compare your kid to other kids..." It was a shallow post to begin with - before the racist bullshit.

I can't speak for anna7602 but when i read your post, ending it the way you did seemed to trivialize what transpired. i interpret that kind of comment at the end as indicating that you don't care as much as you purported to care or you are uncomfortable and have to end with something "lighter" (i.e., my comfort is more important than the weight of these issues)

Fair point. I honestly didn't mean it that way, but can see how it may seem like what you described. The original post actually brought up pain from my childhood. But what I experienced wasn't nearly as bad and awful as facing racism my entire life. I'm here to be supportive of everyone who this post hurt.

[blueberry10]

Checking in. I hadn't read anything in this thread since yesterday and am just now getting caught up. I am by nature a conflict-avoider and tend to let others speak up instead of me, and I'm recognizing that it's something I need to change.

[ny96]

I had avoided this thread because I thought it was just posts from people bragging about their kids, but I went back and read a little and am disgusted by the racism and inability of others to recognize their racist language and behavior. I'm sorry that this is not a safe place for all.

[loira]

Saudade, Nata! But I understand why you're leaving.

cubed and @kirkette, I am horrified at what happened to your children. I'm so sorry your families had to experience it.

[oregonpachey]

Aug 31, 2016 21:26:31 GMT -5 blueberry10 said:

Checking in. I hadn't read anything in this thread since yesterday and am just now getting caught up. I am by nature a conflict-avoider and tend to let others speak up instead of me, and I'm recognizing that it's something I need to change.

This is me too. I need to change that because people deserve better. I am very sorry for all the times I kept silent. 

I hadn't read the sin shackle story before and it makes me sick to my stomach. I am sorry that happened to you and your family @kirkette

[undecidedowl]

Aug 31, 2016 20:55:55 GMT -5 lindsaymg said:

Aug 31, 2016 20:03:21 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

IMHO those are the true blue real assholes.
Navel gazing about stupid ass nosy drama, and then rolling up with, "I was busy. I don't read. I didn't know!".


Lying liars who lie.
Boo boo kitty, you're not slick with your chucklefuckery.
Bystanders, man ...

Fuck fake friends for real!

I have a question. When these things happen and women don't see it until 13 pages later, do you value white women saying "sorry, this is bad". I find multiple pages of comments that don't have something valuable to contribute lacking in sincerity. I know that isn't what the posters intend at all. I write posts, they seem so meaningless and not substantive so I erase them.

I want to be seen as a valuable contributor, do the pages of "I'm sorry" resonate with the POC on this board?

I want to do better. I came back to the post well after the initial call out/change in the direction of the post. Tell me, as someone whose opinion and perspective I highly value, what are the most valuable contributions I can make to these posts?

I will always call out a poster if someone hadn't already done so, but after the call out.

I feel like a lot of women might feel like me. Help us be the friends you deserve.

ETA: I did send Natinrau a private Facebook message expressing my sadness and hoped she would come back as that seemed more sincere.

Edited to fix egregious grammatical error.

If I'm being honest, I have the same questions. But this post just does not read well, putting the burden on Kirkette, one POC, to represent all POC in helping you "be seen as a valuable contributor".

If something doesn't seem sincere, don't post it. Think about what you would want said if you were being discriminated against. Worry less about your image and saying the wrong thing.

[lindsaymg]

Aug 31, 2016 22:16:15 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Aug 31, 2016 20:55:55 GMT -5 lindsaymg said:

I have a question. When these things happen and women don't see it until 13 pages later, do you value white women saying "sorry, this is bad". I find multiple pages of comments that don't have something valuable to contribute lacking in sincerity. I know that isn't what the posters intend at all. I write posts, they seem so meaningless and not substantive so I erase them.

I want to be seen as a valuable contributor, do the pages of "I'm sorry" resonate with the POC on this board?

I want to do better. I came back to the post well after the initial call out/change in the direction of the post. Tell me, as someone whose opinion and perspective I highly value, what are the most valuable contributions I can make to these posts?

I will always call out a poster if someone hadn't already done so, but after the call out.

I feel like a lot of women might feel like me. Help us be the friends you deserve.

ETA: I did send Natinrau a private Facebook message expressing my sadness and hoped she would come back as that seemed more sincere.

Edited to fix egregious grammatical error.

Help us be the friends you deserve? Did you read the previous pages, or any of the spin offs?

You need to do your own heavy lifting and figure this out for yourself. I'm done guiding. It's exhausting.

I have read every single post, but I can't help but see that half of the posts are apologies without any other real commentary. And I AM sorry. I do find what happened to your son absolutely abhorrent. I just want to make sure you don't see "I don't have much to add other than I am sorry" as flippant or unhelpful. I WANT to be helpful/a friend. I just don't know how to valuably convey that. Does that "sorry" check in have value? Does that show you I care? If so, I will always check in. I will say the apology I feel.

I don't like to be flippant. I want you that sentiment to be conveyed.

So, because I didn't say it earlier... I am sorry this post turned an ugly direction. I'm sorry these continue to be the conversations. I will continue to be more aware because of these conversations. I'm sorry we have lost yet another valuable contributor. She was one of my favorites.

[lindsaymg]

Aug 31, 2016 22:26:05 GMT -5 undecidedowl said:

Aug 31, 2016 20:55:55 GMT -5 lindsaymg said:

I have a question. When these things happen and women don't see it until 13 pages later, do you value white women saying "sorry, this is bad". I find multiple pages of comments that don't have something valuable to contribute lacking in sincerity. I know that isn't what the posters intend at all. I write posts, they seem so meaningless and not substantive so I erase them.

I want to be seen as a valuable contributor, do the pages of "I'm sorry" resonate with the POC on this board?

I want to do better. I came back to the post well after the initial call out/change in the direction of the post. Tell me, as someone whose opinion and perspective I highly value, what are the most valuable contributions I can make to these posts?

I will always call out a poster if someone hadn't already done so, but after the call out.

I feel like a lot of women might feel like me. Help us be the friends you deserve.

ETA: I did send Natinrau a private Facebook message expressing my sadness and hoped she would come back as that seemed more sincere.

Edited to fix egregious grammatical error.

If I'm being honest, I have the same questions. But this post just does not read well, putting the burden on Kirkette, one POC, to represent all POC in helping you "be seen as a valuable contributor".

If something doesn't seem sincere, don't post it. Think about what you would want said if you were being discriminated against. Worry less about your image and saying the wrong thing.

I only asked Kirkette because she hit my heart when she said we were bad friends, I get why she said it. I do value her opinion but wasn't necessarily looking for her to speak for everyone. I'd love every POC to address my question.

I also lack skill in conveying sentiment and tone on most any topic. My coworkers ask if I am being sarcastic in emails when I am being absolutely genuine. Because of this work feedback I overthink my written communication.

[miso]

OMG, just fucking be better.

Nobody is going to write you a fucking guide.

This is ridiculous.

[swank]

What the hell is happening here? This passive sit back and let the racist shit fly is disgusting. Not to mention the outright white power influences. The reflections of certain mindsets here are so discouraging. If you can't do better or aren't willing to try then I hope you can look yourself in the mirror and be satisfied. I couldn't.

[Brie]

I am here, I am listening, and I am disgusted at any implication of superiority. This shit is not okay. Ever. End of story.

[turnipthebeet]

It seems to me that the way to be a good friend to POC is not entirely different from the way to be a good friend to your white friends. Aka: it's exactly the same. Where were you people raised that it needs to be spelled out?

Care about your friends. Hurt when they hurt. Be there for them without conditions. Ask someone to hold your earrings when someone else is acting foolish towards them. Educate yourself on the things that are not only relevant, but extremely important to them. Don't ask them to help you deal with things that they are struggling with.

[niq]

Aug 31, 2016 20:55:55 GMT -5 lindsaymg said:

Aug 31, 2016 20:03:21 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

IMHO those are the true blue real assholes.
Navel gazing about stupid ass nosy drama, and then rolling up with, "I was busy. I don't read. I didn't know!".


Lying liars who lie.
Boo boo kitty, you're not slick with your chucklefuckery.
Bystanders, man ...

Fuck fake friends for real!

I have a question. When these things happen and women don't see it until 13 pages later, do you value white women saying "sorry, this is bad". I find multiple pages of comments that don't have something valuable to contribute lacking in sincerity. I know that isn't what the posters intend at all. I write posts, they seem so meaningless and not substantive so I erase them.

I want to be seen as a valuable contributor, do the pages of "I'm sorry" resonate with the POC on this board?

I want to do better. I came back to the post well after the initial call out/change in the direction of the post. Tell me, as someone whose opinion and perspective I highly value, what are the most valuable contributions I can make to these posts?

I'm white, but as 246baje pointed out, this conversation has to be between white people as well. Asking POC to help you navigate appropriate responses to acts of racial aggression (big or small), while well-intentioned, can have its own problems. I recommend the OP in the "White Fragility" thread, especially the parts about how problematic it is for POC to provide feedback, both in terms off white people shutting down emotionally, POC being criticized for "tone"/being too angry, etc. We've seen examples of it several times in this thread already.

With all that said, awareness that something that seems small to someone who's white can be a bigger deal to someone who's POC, and not rejecting that different view, seems like step 0, or maybe step negative 1.
Acceptance that  POC can be angry and with good cause, is maybe the next step.
Beyond that, going forward ... well, we're not on Twitter, we don't have to express ourselves in as few words as possible. We're not journalists on a deadline, we can take a minute to re-read things and ask ourselves "how might I react to this differently if I were Black/Hispanic/Asian/Native American/?". I know, it's a crazy concept for a forum.

... and yet I get what you are saying. At some point it feels very trite and after the fact to chime in. It feels like "listening" but isn't enough. Because it isn't. It's just the start.

[lolo]

I'm here.

I hate that people are hurting. I hate that people aren't learning.

Something I read once (likely from a link here or on CEP) was that if someone tells you that you hurt them, you don't say 'I didn't mean to' or 'what I intended was.' You say, 'I'm sorry.' You don't ask why it hurts. You say 'I'm sorry' and engage in self reflection, so you don't hurt someone like that in the future.

That's why I'm going to say sorry for not being here sooner. Sorry if my non participation made anyone hurt. Sorry if I've not noticed others hurting you in other threads.

[miso]

Ding ding ding!

Circle gets the square!

[mishy]

Aug 31, 2016 22:32:33 GMT -5 lindsaymg said:

Aug 31, 2016 22:16:15 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Help us be the friends you deserve? Did you read the previous pages, or any of the spin offs?

You need to do your own heavy lifting and figure this out for yourself. I'm done guiding. It's exhausting.

I have read every single post, but I can't help but see that half of the posts are apologies without any other real commentary. And I AM sorry. I do find what happened to your son absolutely abhorrent. I just want to make sure you don't see "I don't have much to add other than I am sorry" as flippant or unhelpful. I WANT to be helpful/a friend. I just don't know how to valuably convey that. Does that "sorry" check in have value? Does that show you I care? If so, I will always check in. I will say the apology I feel.

I don't like to be flippant. I want you that sentiment to be conveyed.

So, because I didn't say it earlier... I am sorry this post turned an ugly direction. I'm sorry these continue to be the conversations. I will continue to be more aware because of these conversations. I'm sorry we have lost yet another valuable contributor. She was one of my favorites.

You are either talking about cubed and what happened to her son, or you are talking about what happened to kirkette's daughter. That's a pretty hurtful error, especially given the context.

If I were you, I would stop talking. Take some time to listen, reflect, and read any number of the resources being suggested in other active threads. 

And in regards to your question, I can't speak for the WOC here, but as a white person I am seeing many of the "I'm sorry" responses as hollow gestures because it seems like the board would rather apologize and ask for forgiveness rather than put the work in. The apologies mean nothing if we white posters don't follow through on the work.

[miso]

All look same.