What White Posters Can Do

[TamiTaylor]

My silence during all that was one of my biggest regrets. I tried to justify by saying I had slot going on at the time. But honestly if I can lurk I can also speak up. @kirkette, you're amazing and I am deeply sorry.

[glinda]

Sept 3, 2016 23:46:20 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Sept 3, 2016 23:31:21 GMT -5 sookie said:

What the actual fuck? Kirkette was being harassed so she was collecting proof of the harassment, and yet people wanted HER banned?

I'm an outspoken black woman who gives exactly next to no fucks when I see something wrong. I'm not surprised at all that people here tried to ban me.

I'm not surprised, I am deeply disappointed. I'm sorry you went through all of that.

it bothers me so much that strong women of color are often seen as threatening or scary and white folks work any angle to tear them down. Serena and Venus have been at the top of my mind since the Open is going on.

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2016 22:42:24 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

You guys do remember that when the stuff started blowing up with booby and kirkette most of you in favor of banning kirkette, right? We got so many reports and PMs about how kirkette was threatening another poster and violating the TOS.

It's easy now to look back and say things should have been handled differently. But this is why I say this feels fake.

This is horrifying. Regardless of how ignorant most of us were (are) about what was really happening, nothing kirkette said at this time was even close to ban-worthy.

@kirkette, I'll never forget how kind you've been to me.  You gave me the benefit of the doubt when it wasn't deserved and I should have had your back publicly and loudly when this was going down.  I'm so sorry.

[quesyrah]

Has there ever been a clear answer given as to why Booby and V were never banned? I've seen it questioned multiple times- why aren't we getting an answer?

I'm honestly not surprised to hear that people wanted Kirkette banned. I wouldn't be surprised if people did know she was the victim and still called for her banning. Gross.

[jene]

I was also silent during much that happened before, and I immediately regretted it. I didn't feel it was right to continue as I had before.

[y4m]

Sept 4, 2016 9:36:12 GMT -5 quesyrah said:

Has there ever been a clear answer given as to why Booby and V were never banned? I've seen it questioned multiple times- why aren't we getting an answer?

I'm honestly not surprised to hear that people wanted Kirkette banned. I wouldn't be surprised if people did know she was the victim and still called for her banning. Gross.

FFS. Yes, this has been asked and answered but I'll do it one last time in the hope that it will stop you guys from repeatedly bringing it up to deflect from what you should actually be thinking about. 

In short, the WOC who were targeted in that case, most notably Kirkette, believe in letting idiots and racists show their asses. They know racists exist and don't need or want that fact hidden from them or the rest of the board behind the scenes through moderator action. What they want is for YOU to create the culture you proclaim to want on this board--one that is inclusive and calls out and shuns racism where it exists. 

Banning booby and V literally does nothing...except prevent this board from having to face the uncomfortable reality that if they were to come back, it's highly likely they would be embraced by many here. All us banning them would do is cover up the actual problem.  It's passing responsibility for this from the community as a whole to the mods. 

As Kirkette put much more eloquently in another of the threads on this topic: "Legislating morality in a group setting is essentially futile. Those who know better, do better.
Those who don't , won't ."

[SJ]

Yes it goes back so many years. Booby was such a classic bully and everyone was afraid of her. I know at least 20 posters who were fully aware of the background of the gypsy/booby scenario but almost all remained silent. Booby and then the ML groupthink were incredibly intimidating which allowed terrible behavior to continue to the point where gypsy can now not be mentioned on GBCN. I am not defending all of gypsy's words and actions, just saying that it was deeper and more two-sided than people want to believe. It's easier to blame and run off one party.

I had booby blocked for years on TK. She would constantly use "retarded", created AE's to harass people, trolled a poster for having an abortion and on and on. She'd come to MM, say awful things, and run back to ML laughing.

I tried to speak up, but it was near impossible since I'm not a ML poster. Which meant that I didn't speak up enough or on the right boards for @kirkette because of years of this trash being ignored. I do understand why so many remained silent, but it's still sad and awful.

[TamiTaylor]

Thank you y4m.

[quesyrah]

Sept 4, 2016 10:09:27 GMT -5 y4m said:

Sept 4, 2016 9:36:12 GMT -5 quesyrah said:

Has there ever been a clear answer given as to why Booby and V were never banned? I've seen it questioned multiple times- why aren't we getting an answer?

I'm honestly not surprised to hear that people wanted Kirkette banned. I wouldn't be surprised if people did know she was the victim and still called for her banning. Gross.

FFS. Yes, this has been asked and answered but I'll do it one last time in the hope that it will stop you guys from repeatedly bringing it up to deflect from what you should actually be thinking about. 

In short, the WOC who were targeted in that case, most notably Kirkette, believe in letting idiots and racists show their asses. They know racists exist and don't need or want that fact hidden from them or the rest of the board behind the scenes through moderator action. What they want is for YOU to create the culture you proclaim to want on this board--one that is inclusive and calls out and shuns racism where it exists. 

Banning booby and V literally does nothing...except prevent this board from having to face the uncomfortable reality that if they were to come back, it's highly likely they would be embraced by many here. All us banning them would do is cover up the actual problem.  It's passing responsibility for this from the community as a whole to the mods. 

As Kirkette put much more eloquently in another of the threads on this topic: "Legislating morality in a group setting is essentially futile. Those who know better, do better.
Those who don't , won't ."

Okay. Sorry for asking. I was just confused on why CeliacMom was banned so quickly and the others weren't.

[y4m]

Sept 4, 2016 10:29:09 GMT -5 quesyrah said:

Sept 4, 2016 10:09:27 GMT -5 y4m said:

FFS. Yes, this has been asked and answered but I'll do it one last time in the hope that it will stop you guys from repeatedly bringing it up to deflect from what you should actually be thinking about. 

In short, the WOC who were targeted in that case, most notably Kirkette, believe in letting idiots and racists show their asses. They know racists exist and don't need or want that fact hidden from them or the rest of the board behind the scenes through moderator action. What they want is for YOU to create the culture you proclaim to want on this board--one that is inclusive and calls out and shuns racism where it exists. 

Banning booby and V literally does nothing...except prevent this board from having to face the uncomfortable reality that if they were to come back, it's highly likely they would be embraced by many here. All us banning them would do is cover up the actual problem.  It's passing responsibility for this from the community as a whole to the mods. 

As Kirkette put much more eloquently in another of the threads on this topic: "Legislating morality in a group setting is essentially futile. Those who know better, do better.
Those who don't , won't ."

Okay. Sorry for asking. I was just confused on why CeliacMom was banned so quickly and the others weren't.

CM was a proven troll and scammer using the board to make money. We don't allow that in general--the fact that she posted a bunch of times to do it rather than once or twice like the hired ones from the Philippines is kind of irrelevant.

[underwaterrhymes]

Sept 3, 2016 23:10:45 GMT -5 SJ said:

Sept 3, 2016 22:56:09 GMT -5 suzubell said:

It absolutely was people from here, too.  There was a long list of apologies for seeing the situation so backwards in the days after, but people here absolutely thought @kirkette was to blame.  She was, as always, classy and dignified in her response.

Ugh and there I go again, trying to assume this board is better than we are. Giving the benefit of the doubt when there should be none. Thank you for correcting me.

You should go back and read the thread when this all went down. There was absolutely shameful stuff on ML, but there is plenty of shame to go around and MMM gets a prize there too.

[july]

I rarely come around here anymore, but I was on MM for a long time with a different name.

Kirkette, you are awesome.

[EllieArroway]

Sept 4, 2016 10:38:42 GMT -5 underwaterrhymes said:

Sept 3, 2016 23:10:45 GMT -5 SJ said:

Ugh and there I go again, trying to assume this board is better than we are. Giving the benefit of the doubt when there should be none. Thank you for correcting me.

You should go back and read the thread when this all went down. There was absolutely shameful stuff on ML, but there is plenty of shame to go around and MMM gets a prize there too.

I was going to link some of the threads, but so many people have deleted their posts in them that you can barely follow them anymore.

[quesyrah]

Sept 4, 2016 10:35:43 GMT -5 y4m said:

Sept 4, 2016 10:29:09 GMT -5 quesyrah said:

Okay. Sorry for asking. I was just confused on why CeliacMom was banned so quickly and the others weren't.

CM was a proven troll and scammer using the board to make money. We don't allow that in general--the fact that she posted a bunch of times to do it rather than once or twice like the hired ones from the Philippines is kind of irrelevant.

Thanks. And again, I'm sorry to have brought it up.

I've been thinking about why I couldn't see the difference and I get it. I'm not usually so dense, but I get it.

[y4m]

Here's where it starts. The next time "why was CM banned and not booby and V?" comes up, anyone reading this you know the answer. Do me a solid and explain it.

[quesyrah]

Sept 4, 2016 10:48:07 GMT -5 y4m said:

Here's where it starts. The next time "why was CM banned and not booby and V?" comes up, anyone reading this you know the answer. Do me a solid and explain it.

You have my word, for sure. I've been doing my best to keep up with all the threads so I know what's going on around here and somehow I missed the entire point of the X vs X banning.
I'm ashamed to say so but, I know now.

[caramia]

I don't know what to say, other than I'm sorry. Sorry that so many have to live with this cloud hanging over their heads. Sorry that so many are ignorant of or refuse to see what's happening. It shouldn't be like this.

[Balki.Bartokomous]

Sept 3, 2016 21:22:18 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

TBH, immediately banning anyone who posts anything racist seems to me like just another way to avoid having difficult or uncomfortable conversations.

I do want to make this entire community a more welcoming place for our WOC posters, but this feels fake to me, like just another way that we can pat ourselves on the back and keep ignoring our own problems.

Am I the only one?

Trying to catch up on everything, but this is one of the thoughts that jumped first into my mind. Racism isn't going to end because we had this conversation last year, unfortunately. It is an ongoing dialogue and in order to have that dialogue we need an audience and we need to be the audience and participate as well. Banning anyone will just cause them to run to places where this stuff is ignored, tolerated or encouraged so it undermines what we need to do. In my mind, getting people in the audience is a critical first step. I'd much rather have them hang around with the hope that they eventually will listen and learn something than to not have them at all, so I am very disappointed that some of these posters abandoned ship rather than take the heat and hang around.

I know I'm freaking exhausted from just reading everything and having a few conversations about this on FB and IRL this week, so I cannot imagine the exhaustion and frustration that POC have to go through since they live this and more every day. I'm so sorry this is your reality.

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2016 9:27:01 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Sept 4, 2016 7:33:27 GMT -5 @savestheday said:

At the time the harassment was across several boards & quite a long period of time. If you didn't follow it from board to board you would see @kirkette reacting to the harassment but not know the full extent of what was happening. Booby & V were very sneaky and vicious & SOUGHT to turn the boards against her. I will admit I thought maybe @kirkette was going through something else & didn't understand what was truly happening until I followed the links.

It's like the were " gas lighting" the boards to see @kirkette negatively.

I sure hope this alibi helps you sleep well at night.
Gross, dude!

Really?? I fucking was actually concerned about you. I never asked for you to be banned, but allot a sudden one day I noticed a change in your general behavior, and I thought something was going on that u didn't know about ( which was true but it was on the boards, not IRL). Then when someone linked the threads at some point I was like Hooooollllly shit that poor lady.

[raangoli]

I'm appalled but maybe not surprised that people wanted Kirkette banned. What the ever loving shut is that about?

And although I asked why supergreen wasn't banned it's clear that banning only works on those who can feel remorse for their actions. That is obviously not the case here.

[redheadk]

Sept 4, 2016 11:18:30 GMT -5 Balki.Bartokomous said:

Sept 3, 2016 21:22:18 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

TBH, immediately banning anyone who posts anything racist seems to me like just another way to avoid having difficult or uncomfortable conversations.

I do want to make this entire community a more welcoming place for our WOC posters, but this feels fake to me, like just another way that we can pat ourselves on the back and keep ignoring our own problems.

Am I the only one?

Trying to catch up on everything, but this is one of the thoughts that jumped first into my mind. Racism isn't going to end because we had this conversation last year, unfortunately. It is an ongoing dialogue and in order to have that dialogue we need an audience and we need to be the audience and participate as well. Banning anyone will just cause them to run to places where this stuff is ignored, tolerated or encouraged so it undermines what we need to do. In my mind, getting people in the audience is a critical first step. I'd much rather have them hang around with the hope that they eventually will listen and learn something than to not have them at all, so I am very disappointed that some of these posters abandoned ship rather than take the heat and hang around.

I know I'm freaking exhausted from just reading everything and having a few conversations about this on FB and IRL this week, so I cannot imagine the exhaustion and frustration that POC have to go through since they live this and more every day. I'm so sorry this is your reality.

I honestly hadn't fully thought it through this way. TBH, I've come to the realization that I did make it about me. I do tend to just drop people IRL once I'm tired of dealing with their shit for any reason, but I needed the reality check that I how I handle things both IRL and on GBCN needs to change and that I can be a better ally. 

I don't want to make promises to "do better" because, really, the proof is in the pudding. What I'm hoping will happen is that myself and others will step up to the plate every time we encounter something on these boards and not wait for someone else to do it or just overlook it entirely; for microagressions and more overt acts of racism to be called out immediately and not 2 hours later by a WOC after 20 other posts are made that just ignore it. Time will tell. I know we've lost some awesome posters on this board through the years. I can only hope that as new people find us, this board will have changed for the better and that posters who are WOC feel that this is a place where they are respected and valued and that they have a different experience than those posters we've lost. 

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2016 12:15:09 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Sept 4, 2016 11:47:05 GMT -5 @savestheday said:

Really?? I fucking was actually concerned about you. I never asked for you to be banned, but allot a sudden one day I noticed a change in your general behavior, and I thought something was going on that u didn't know about ( which was true but it was on the boards, not IRL). Then when someone linked the threads at some point I was like Hooooollllly shit that poor lady.

I mean no snark, but let me see if I'm getting this straight. You thought something was going on with me that I didn't know about? You thought something was going on with me IRL, even as I was essentially screaming loudly about exactly what was happening to me in plain sight? 
Did you listen to my words when I said  what was happening in real time? 
Listening  and opening your eyes, also works in lieu of trying to psychoanalyze. 
Thank you for eventually coming around. 

No I thought something was going on IRL that you weren't telling the board about that was really affecting you. I never paid too much attention to booby or v because they were pretty much bitches IMHO. Then one day I saw you posting about what was going on & I was like Hooooollllyyy Shiiiiiitttt! That's what is happening. It's HERE.

It was kinda like when you see someone across the street wildly flailing & you don't know why, and by the time you get to them you realize they are being attacked by bees. I didn't see the bees, just the reaction at first.

[suzubell]

Sept 4, 2016 11:09:02 GMT -5 connie0000 said:

As a Korean woc I was told to full stop. Stop being defensive, and learn. It ripped my fucking heart out. By a white woman, actually by a few of them on here. Something offended me, I voiced it. I needed a few days to think. Im still here but I need time to process everything that has happened the past week. Oh and my personal favorite insult.. this isnt about me. Im a woc. This was just mind blowing.

Wait, that was me, right? You responded defensively to a post about white women ignoring the racial posts and thanking those who did participate in a particular one with a comment that how dare the white women be called out? As a poster with very few posts and no identifying signature or avatar, I assumed, incorrectly, that you were an infrequent white poster who got her feelings hurt because anyone dared to say only 13 white women responded and that that was shameful to the entire board.


I really do apologize for my mistake in assumptions and also for offending you. It is about you.

[CloudBee]

Looking back 10 yrs, it certainly was a bumpy road for a while with lots of hospital visits. I can't believe our core group has been together that long. Insane. I don't know how I would have kept my head above water and my sanity in check without the support of friends like @kirkette, even when I didn't deserve it.

I also hope that in time we can get back to a sense of normalcy with a side of kick-ass reality. Where we all buck up and own what we say, change how we think, and no longer glaze over the true concerns of the WOC on this board in daily posts. I don't believe "things can't / will never change". I think that we can train ourselves to look at the everyday, and how racism and microagression can thread into daily posts. Threads occur on a near daily basis when a WOC mentions something like having to pause and take a more mindful approach to discipline. We HAVE been glazing over that. Why aren't we engaging and asking more questions if we don't understand? Eyes only focus when there's a specific thread about racism. We've got to stop skimming over the everyday. The worry is constant. The acknowledgement? Crickets.

I'm guilty.

[TamiTaylor]

@savestheday, @kirkette is allowed to feel her feelings and POV of that time. I cannot imagine how lonely it felt.

[mishy]

@savestheday - your comment that booby & v gaslit the boards is wrong and implies the rest of us were victims to them, which is incredibly insulting to kirkette. No, we were accomplices (whether actively or passively). @kirkette was the victim they were very successfully gaslighting - even though she knew the truth, it almost didn't matter. The only reason they weren't successful is because of how awesome Kirkette is, including her having the ability to repetitively stand up to booby and finally offer real-life consequences to booby that she could follow through on.

And to address how surprised people are that admins were getting PMs to ban kirkette, posters in the ML thread were dissecting the fuck out of kirkette's life, mocking her, and making cries of kirkette violating the TOS with her "threats" right out there in the open. Whether they suggested banning her openly or not, the implications were definitely out there.

@savestheday, you also stated that something was going on that kirkette didn't know about - but she DID know and people weren't listening to her.

[Deleted]

Sept 4, 2016 14:45:41 GMT -5 mishy said:

@savestheday - your comment that booby & v gaslit the boards is wrong and implies the rest of us were victims to them, which is incredibly insulting to kirkette. No, we were accomplices (whether actively or passively). @kirkette was the victim they were very successfully gaslighting - even though she knew the truth, it almost didn't matter. The only reason they weren't successful is because of how awesome Kirkette is, including her having the ability to repetitively stand up to booby and finally offer real-life consequences to booby that she could follow through on.

And to address how surprised people are that admins were getting PMs to ban kirkette, posters in the ML thread were dissecting the fuck out of kirkette's life, mocking her, and making cries of kirkette violating the TOS with her "threats" right out there in the open. Whether they suggested banning her openly or not, the implications were definitely out there.

@savestheday, you also stated that something was going on that kirkette didn't know about - but she DID know and people weren't listening to her.

I didn't mean that she didn't know what was going on. I meant that the boards may not have

[starlily]

Sept 4, 2016 15:11:48 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Sept 4, 2016 13:38:14 GMT -5 jenny1980 said:

This is an aside (and certainly not directed to you personally), but being a woman of color doesn't mean you (general) are exempt from being racist. Booby is a WOC and still targeted Kirkette. 

FWIW, I do think she was trying to pass, and trying to get her son to pass too.

Well, Indian culture certainly does place a premium on having fair skin. It's one aspect of why Cookiemonster's post left me feeling really upset in a way I know I'm not going to articulate well. In addition to the general public who will give "extra points" for BHBE, there's an extra layer of bullshit in that my kids will face criticisms and commentary about their skintone from within their own community, especially with DD2 being so much lighter than DD1. Like, where the hell can they just be comfortable in their skin?

I still remember all the instant praise and adoration my SIL received from our community just because she's so fair. It was way over the top and the assumptions that she must be a great DIL because she's so pretty (i.e. fair) sting a lot since she turned out to be such a heinous bitch.

[belovedbride07]

Sept 4, 2016 14:46:53 GMT -5 @savestheday said:

Sept 4, 2016 14:45:41 GMT -5 mishy said:

@savestheday , you also stated that something was going on that kirkette didn't know about - but she DID know and people weren't listening to her.

I didn't mean that she didn't know what was going on. I meant that the boards may not have

I think you had an autocorrect fail that resulted in a "u" that should have been an "I" -- "I thought something was going on that *u* didn't know about."

[mishy]

Sept 4, 2016 13:22:34 GMT -5 connie0000 said:

Sept 4, 2016 13:09:58 GMT -5 suzubell said:

Wait, that was me, right? You responded defensively to a post about white women ignoring the racial posts and thanking those who did participate in a particular one with a comment that how dare the white women be called out? As a poster with very few posts and no identifying signature or avatar, I assumed, incorrectly, that you were an infrequent white poster who got her feelings hurt because anyone dared to say only 13 white women responded and that that was shameful to the entire board.


I really do apologize for my mistake in assumptions and also for offending you. It is about you.

Yes. I really have taken a few days to think it over. And I realize I may not have posted photos of my kids or myself and some assumptions were made I was white and made that remark. Also, looking back at post history of you and the other one that said something, I knew it was not in your character I had seen here to make a remark like that. I appreciate your apology and thank you.

I think it was your response to me in that thread in which it appeared you were grouping yourself in with white posters.

I am sorry you were hurt, and if you are still offended by what I wrote, I am sorry. As much as I'm working, I know I'm going to mess up.