What White Posters Can Do

[lolo]

Sept 3, 2016 21:22:18 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

TBH, immediately banning anyone who posts anything racist seems to me like just another way to avoid having difficult or uncomfortable conversations.

I do want to make this entire community a more welcoming place for our WOC posters, but this feels fake to me, like just another way that we can pat ourselves on the back and keep ignoring our own problems.

Am I the only one?

Yes. Like because we are such educated, white allies that not only did we NOT post racist shit, but we POINTED IT OUT and then BANNED THOSE WHO DID.

As if that exonerates. As if that means we are not also racists. As if that makes it all okay.

[sh10]

I apologize for being absent this week, I've been buried in house projects. I know it's a hollow excuse though.

I want to contribute more, but am often behind and it feels meaningless for me to contribute hours behind the posts. I am working on improving my responses to inappropriate statements said in real life by others.

I feel like I'm saying the wrong things, but I'm trying to be better and will be getting books from the library to improve my/my family's responses.

[cjeanette]

Sept 3, 2016 21:28:21 GMT -5 TamiTaylor said:

Sept 3, 2016 21:22:18 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

TBH, immediately banning anyone who posts anything racist seems to me like just another way to avoid having difficult or uncomfortable conversations.

I do want to make this entire community a more welcoming place for our WOC posters, but this feels fake to me, like just another way that we can pat ourselves on the back and keep ignoring our own problems.

Am I the only one?

No, we needed to do the heavy lifting. It should rest squarely on us as a community. I thought a lot about that last night and today. By us saying that we should have a WOC as ab admin with banning powers puts the burden on them and makes it easier for us white posters. It's unfair and not right. I hope that if we can come together as a community and speak up it should never have to get to the point of banning.

Weren't you one calling for banning?

[lilac05]

Sept 3, 2016 21:22:18 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

Am I the only one?

I agree, it feels like the easy way out.  But I also feel like I shouldn't have a vote in this matter.

[TamiTaylor]

Sept 3, 2016 21:39:35 GMT -5 cjeanette said:

Sept 3, 2016 21:28:21 GMT -5 TamiTaylor said:

No, we needed to do the heavy lifting. It should rest squarely on us as a community. I thought a lot about that last night and today. By us saying that we should have a WOC as ab admin with banning powers puts the burden on them and makes it easier for us white posters. It's unfair and not right. I hope that if we can come together as a community and speak up it should never have to get to the point of banning.

Weren't you one calling for banning?

Yes I was. However, not to make a WOC an admin so they can do the work for us. I don't think banning should be completely off the table but it should not be the first things we do.

[brooklyn]

I've been guilty of not speaking up because I arrive to threads late and think other people have already covered what I want to say, but after reflecting on it, that seems cowardly and passive. I need to do better. I've had the pleasure of hanging out with @natariru and her beautiful boys and it breaks my heart that the world we live in would treat her family any differently than my white family. I remember her discussing how there were always 8 token people of color per grade in her high school and how that made her feel, and that was (one of many) eye opening stories told here. I grew up with an enormous amount of privilege, attending all sorts of ritzy, well regarded schools, (including one that sounds an awful lot like her high school) and sadly it was only recently that I've realized how sheltered and lacking my education was in regards to racism and micro aggressions. How did I never learn this in school? I was one of those who were taught to "never see color, blah blah blah" and thanks to this board I've learned how dismissive and damaging that is, but I still have a lot of reading and learning and listening to do. I promise to do that, and to teach my son to be and do better.

Thanks in a large part to previous posts on this board, I had added many books to my personal wish list and my son's, but had let them sit there, waiting for a birthday/Christmas/etc. That was dumb of me. Those books can't wait, and I will purchase them myself and get to work on educating myself so that I can be a better example for my son and do better at standing up against the micro aggressions that occur far too often.

[TamiTaylor]

Sept 3, 2016 21:43:03 GMT -5 @natariru said:

Just so you all know, @supergreen 's new name for Pokemon conversations is greenheron.

Motherfucker. I am going to haunt her ass.

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2016 21:43:03 GMT -5 @natariru said:

Just so you all know, @supergreen 's new name for Pokemon conversations is greenheron.

Wow. How sneaky and creative of her. ::eyeroll::

[brandienee]

Sept 3, 2016 21:43:03 GMT -5 @natariru said:

Just so you all know, @supergreen 's new name for Pokemon conversations is greenheron.

OMFG. She couldn't wait a whole 24 hours. Gross.

[winecheery]

Sept 3, 2016 21:22:18 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

TBH, immediately banning anyone who posts anything racist seems to me like just another way to avoid having difficult or uncomfortable conversations.

I do want to make this entire community a more welcoming place for our WOC posters, but this feels fake to me, like just another way that we can pat ourselves on the back and keep ignoring our own problems.

Am I the only one?

I don't think I fully looked at it from this perspective.  It's a very valid point IMO.  In my wordy post upthread, I said I'd be willing to support banning racists, because who wants that kind of negativity and hatred around here? but yes, why not look the bastard in the eye?  Face the storm. From both others and ourselves.  

[TamiTaylor]

FTR, I still think V, Booby and Lucy should be banned.

[TamiTaylor]

Sept 3, 2016 21:43:03 GMT -5 @natariru said:

Just so you all know, @supergreen 's new name for Pokemon conversations is greenheron.

I just made this thread over there.

pandce.proboards.com/thread/550652/yall-get-racist

[erbear]

I am still gathering my thoughts (ironically, as I'm planning for my new role as diversity coordinator in my school), but I did want to at the very least weigh in here. I am vowing here (and IRL) to calling out racism every.single.time I see it, and I am trying hard to do the dirty work of explaining why I think certain words, phrases, insinuations, etc. are racist. I expect to have to do this with my students (they are 8th graders, after all) but I didn't really think it had to be done with grown ass adults so frequently. I was wrong, so yup: I'm here and I'm ready.

Also wanted to add that while I have heard/am aware of the experiences of WOC and particularly moms of color, I appreciate so much how some of the poster of color on here are open with their experiences. Your words and stories are frequently the reminders/kick in the pants I need, again, to speak up. Thank you.

[mpc]

I am so sorry for all the hurt caused this past week. I have learned and continue to learn so much from these discussions, not just this week but last year and before. This kind of self examination is hard and so tempting to avoid, but none of us should be able to live with ourselves if we don't do it. Last week, before all of this went down, I got into a really intense debate with someone who insisted that racism doesn't exist. I am not a debater, I am not a confronter, but I was thinking of all the WOC here as I stood my ground with this person. This is not really the point, so I won't get into the details, but as they were denying the experiences of POC, I couldn't stop thinking of all of you who have shared your stories and experiences, and it's unconscionable that an entire segment of society just says nope you're wrong, that's not how it is. I am far from perfect myself, but I hear you, I believe you, and I am speaking up in my life.

[TamiTaylor]

Sept 3, 2016 22:11:52 GMT -5 mishy said:

Sept 3, 2016 21:43:03 GMT -5 @natariru said:

Just so you all know, @supergreen 's new name for Pokemon conversations is greenheron .

Thank you. I've been peeking in on the Geeks & Gamers board to say something if I see her there.

I made a thread over there. I also posted one on every board I thought she might go to.

[mishy]

I know this has been said, but it bears repeating. For us white posters, we need to remember that it's not an us against them battle against "racists." We all have biases and it's all well and good to want to drive away the most blatant offenders, but we have to be careful to remember that there is a continuum of racist attitudes and behaviors and we all fall somewhere on it. Our intentions don't change our placement on it; our actions, self-reflection, and ownership of the problem do. And yes, it's hard work. But it's not even close to the oppression POC face day in and day out.

The other point I want to repeat is that a lot of us say we want to speak up more when we "see" racist behavior. That's not enough because we are pretty terrible at "seeing" it. We have to get better at recognizing it, at seeing it. And we have to start or continue examining our own thoughts and behaviors because we are even more terrible at seeing it in ourselves.

[EllieArroway]

You guys do remember that when the stuff started blowing up with booby and kirkette most of you in favor of banning kirkette, right? We got so many reports and PMs about how kirkette was threatening another poster and violating the TOS.

It's easy now to look back and say things should have been handled differently. But this is why I say this feels fake.

[winecheery]

Sept 3, 2016 22:42:24 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

You guys do remember that when the stuff started blowing up with booby and kirkette most of you in favor of banning kirkette, right? We got so many reports and PMs about how kirkette was threatening another poster and violating the TOS.

It's easy now to look back and say things should have been handled differently. But this is why I say this feels fake.

WHAT.

[SJ]

Sept 3, 2016 22:42:24 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

You guys do remember that when the stuff started blowing up with booby and kirkette most of you in favor of banning kirkette, right? We got so many reports and PMs about how kirkette was threatening another poster and violating the TOS.

It's easy now to look back and say things should have been handled differently. But this is why I say this feels fake.

I do not think most people here know or remember that. I know I have never heard it.

Booby did not post much here on MMM and was not at all well liked on MM back on TK. In fact, she had been downright awful for years and years. I would guess her supporters and these PM's were mostly from ML?

Either way, it's appalling that people viewed @kirkette as the aggressor and pushed for her to be banned. And to do it privately is even worse.

But I do see your point about how banning is not necessarily an appropriate blanket solution. And that turning blame on the mods for poor handling of past situations is probably also misguided.

[suzubell]

Sept 3, 2016 22:51:07 GMT -5 SJ said:

Sept 3, 2016 22:42:24 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

You guys do remember that when the stuff started blowing up with booby and kirkette most of you in favor of banning kirkette, right? We got so many reports and PMs about how kirkette was threatening another poster and violating the TOS.

It's easy now to look back and say things should have been handled differently. But this is why I say this feels fake.

I do not think most people here know or remember that. I know I have never heard it.

Booby did not post much here on MMM and was not at all well liked on MM back on TK. In fact, she had been downright awful for years and years. I would guess her supporters and these PM's were mostly from ML?

Either way, it's appalling that people viewed @kirkette as the aggressor and pushed for her to be banned. And to do it privately is even worse.

But I do see your point about how banning is not necessarily an appropriate blanket solution. And that turning blame on the mods for poor handling of past situations is probably also misguided.

It absolutely was people from here, too.  There was a long list of apologies for seeing the situation so backwards in the days after, but people here absolutely thought @kirkette was to blame.  She was, as always, classy and dignified in her response.

[SJ]

Sept 3, 2016 22:56:09 GMT -5 suzubell said:

Sept 3, 2016 22:51:07 GMT -5 SJ said:

I do not think most people here know or remember that. I know I have never heard it.

Booby did not post much here on MMM and was not at all well liked on MM back on TK. In fact, she had been downright awful for years and years. I would guess her supporters and these PM's were mostly from ML?

Either way, it's appalling that people viewed @kirkette as the aggressor and pushed for her to be banned. And to do it privately is even worse.

But I do see your point about how banning is not necessarily an appropriate blanket solution. And that turning blame on the mods for poor handling of past situations is probably also misguided.

It absolutely was people from here, too.  There was a long list of apologies for seeing the situation so backwards in the days after, but people here absolutely thought @kirkette was to blame.  She was, as always, classy and dignified in her response.

Ugh and there I go again, trying to assume this board is better than we are. Giving the benefit of the doubt when there should be none. Thank you for correcting me.

[satsuma]

Kirkette said she had started a file on Booby, basically documenting harassment, and plenty of people thought that Booby was the victim there. I don't remember if the calls for banning were public or not.

Ugh, I really don't know what to do here. I'm such a sporadic poster and I'm not friends with anyone here IRL or on FB so I don't necessarily get all of the board dynamics. I don't necessarily want to defer responsibility for coming up with solutions to everyone else though.

[sookie]

Sept 3, 2016 21:43:03 GMT -5 @natariru said:

Just so you all know, @supergreen 's new name for Pokemon conversations is greenheron.

I don't understand what the point is of making a new name just to come back hours later. Why the hell does this seem like a good idea to anyone?

[sookie]

Sept 3, 2016 22:42:24 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

You guys do remember that when the stuff started blowing up with booby and kirkette most of you in favor of banning kirkette, right? We got so many reports and PMs about how kirkette was threatening another poster and violating the TOS.

It's easy now to look back and say things should have been handled differently. But this is why I say this feels fake.

What the actual fuck? Kirkette was being harassed so she was collecting proof of the harassment, and yet people wanted HER banned?

[Cicero]

Didn't booby always have a cool girl clique following her around? And people didn't really turn on her until after she mailed Smo a box of dicks (which, hey it's not like there is a pattern of behavior there at all)? Forgive me if I'm way off on this but that is the impression I get as someone who only goes into ML on the rare occasion someone sends me a message that something had gone down or it spills over into other boards. Once upon a time "good folks" would burn a cross in your lawn. Now they just mail you a box of dicks.

**edited because I had a cup of coffee and remembered Smo's sn**

ETA: Nope. Found this. Well after the bag of dicks booby defense going strong:

m.pandce.proboards.com/thread/515602/any-resolution-bag-ks?page=2

[curbsideprophet]

Sept 3, 2016 22:51:07 GMT -5 SJ said:

Sept 3, 2016 22:42:24 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

You guys do remember that when the stuff started blowing up with booby and kirkette most of you in favor of banning kirkette, right? We got so many reports and PMs about how kirkette was threatening another poster and violating the TOS.

It's easy now to look back and say things should have been handled differently. But this is why I say this feels fake.

I do not think most people here know or remember that. I know I have never heard it.

Booby did not post much here on MMM and was not at all well liked on MM back on TK. In fact, she had been downright awful for years and years. I would guess her supporters and these PM's were mostly from ML?

Either way, it's appalling that people viewed @kirkette as the aggressor and pushed for her to be banned. And to do it privately is even worse.

But I do see your point about how banning is not necessarily an appropriate blanket solution. And that turning blame on the mods for poor handling of past situations is probably also misguided.

I never really understood why booby was so loved/accepted. She always seemed downright mean on MM. I did not really go to ML because I got the impression they thought she was funny and supported her behavior.

[Deleted]

Sept 3, 2016 23:31:21 GMT -5 sookie said:

Sept 3, 2016 22:42:24 GMT -5 EllieArroway said:

You guys do remember that when the stuff started blowing up with booby and kirkette most of you in favor of banning kirkette, right? We got so many reports and PMs about how kirkette was threatening another poster and violating the TOS.

It's easy now to look back and say things should have been handled differently. But this is why I say this feels fake.

What the actual fuck? Kirkette was being harassed so she was collecting proof of the harassment, and yet people wanted HER banned?

At the time the harassment was across several boards & quite a long period of time. If you didn't follow it from board to board you would see @kirkette reacting to the harassment but not know the full extent of what was happening. Booby & V were very sneaky and vicious & SOUGHT to turn the boards against her. I will admit I thought maybe @kirkette was going through something else & didn't understand what was truly happening until I followed the links.

It's like the were " gas lighting" the boards to see @kirkette negatively.

[CheeringCharm]

Sept 3, 2016 21:56:24 GMT -5 TamiTaylor said:

FTR, I still think V, Booby and Lucy should be banned.

I agree. Also narockshard . It honestly surprises me that when these things come to light, they aren't immediately banned the way celicmom was (which was also appropriate imo). That is trollish behavior. They were literally following a poster around and belittling her. They all should have been banned months ago.

eta: And I don't think it was well known at all that people on this board were apparently PMing to have kirkette banned. I did not know that. WTF. I'm actually making a   face. That is disgusting.

[osulori]

Sept 4, 2016 7:39:34 GMT -5 CheeringCharm said:

Sept 3, 2016 21:56:24 GMT -5 TamiTaylor said:

FTR, I still think V, Booby and Lucy should be banned.

I agree. Also narockshard . It honestly surprises me that when these things come to light, they aren't immediately banned the way celicmom was (which was also appropriate imo). That is trollish behavior. They were literally following a poster around and belittling her. They all should have been banned months ago.

eta: And I don't think it was well known at all that people on this board were apparently PMing to have kirkette banned. I did not know that. WTF. I'm actually making a   face. That is disgusting.

I didn't know that either. It's disgusting, and enfuriating, and so many other adjectives.

[spk926]

I had no idea people were PMing requesting Kirkette to be banned. Gross.