I think the one saving grace I’ve noticed, IRL, in our area, is that these tears have a shelf life.
Once a white woman ages out of her “value” ( like about age 35, when no one wants her around anymore), the tears get ignored, as she becomes more and more invisible to society. No one responds to her attention seeking behavior, or dramatic tantrums, but her equally awful frenemies, in the same boat, and her empty wine bottle.
Perhaps I should be mad about how sexist that pattern appears to be, but ... meh. It’s like poetic justice.
I think the shelf life goes a bit further outside of your area, but yeah. The difference between a Karen and a Becky perhaps.
Also, I’m going call bullshit on all this, “I’m going to be more aware of this going forward”. It’s truly laughable. Is that the 2018 version of listening and learning?
No. At least I hope not. I'm not good with words. I'm generally awkward. (I mean, we've met in person, you can verify this, LOL).
But I did not want to pass the post by without acknowledging that it was read and understood and I'm trying to do better and be a better human now. I'm sorry.
I follow Luvvie on FB and read these posts a couple of days ago. The tears on demand of my fellow WW annoy the fuck out of me but, of course, I hadn't thought of them as a weapon of oppression until reading these posts. Recently another article came across my FB feed encouraging women to cry at work. I didn't read it because I hate crying at work.
Wtf. No, just no.
WHAT THE ACTUAL FUCK?
encouraging crying? the fuck? have we no goddamn dignity? (don't answer that)
there's a lot to be said for men having more emotional awareness and license to express "soft" feelings like sadness or whathaveyou, but i'm with Tom Hanks on crying in your place of work.
Also, I’m going call bullshit on all this, “I’m going to be more aware of this going forward”. It’s truly laughable. Is that the 2018 version of listening and learning?
...and WTF does 'I have a lot of work to do' mean? I see that frequently, just stop being a racist, fragile asshole, and get out of the way.
Thank you for sharing - there's no end to the examples and methods that WW have become part of the machine of oppression for POC, especially WOC. It's both as I see these behaviors and patterns in myself (now and in the past) and in others around me, but I am grateful to people like Luuvie who are speaking out and bringing more (WW) attention and awareness to racism.
But this isn't new, and WW tears have proven to be absolutely deadly for black men (men as young as what, 9? since to a white woman, a young black boy is always a "man".), and continue to be so. I am glad Luvvie is bringing our attention to it.
Also people, it does not have to be actual tears. Please stop saying you don't like to cry. It is about making yourself seem like the victim. It is Taylor Swifting. I don't think I have ever seen her cry, but she knows how to play the victim. Why do you all constantly focus on the wrong thing?
Post by katieinthecity on Apr 19, 2018 9:20:33 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing these, they were very thought-provoking. I can't cry on demand but I do cry from frustration and I've had to train myself not to let work-related frustration cause tears (or hustle outside or to a bathroom before it does). But I had never considered why/how I might have been socialized/conditioned to cry in that way when I was younger by the response it would have gotten from white adults around me. These articles made me realize that it was probably "situation I didn't like -> I cried -> white adults stepped in and ended the situation to stop white girl tears -> I learned tears got me out of the frustrating spot without having to actually deal with the issue -> I continued to cry out of frustration because I knew someone would step in and fix my problem".
I'll be honest that I've probably don't this and don't remember. But I rarely cry and had that propensity to be weak and try to get everyone else to do things for me trained out of me early by my parents. I have absolutely seen these things happen and wondered how the fuck some of these women get through life. I thought it was some fragility unique to the area my family moved to, because I didn't remember seeing it as a child, but I now know that's not true. I am trying to watch for these things in all areas of my life, including with the kids I work with. I have been trying to make sure that when we talk about different students and look at behaviors and expectations, that racial bias is identified and addressed. Even without the tears, there's so much white fragility. I need to read both articles since yesterday I was too busy to read any of them. I did see Luvvie's posts yesterday, too.
Maybe we white women just need to listen to some soothing music to help us not to cry.
I cried once after being pulled over, and it wasn't conscious. I had just blown through a red light which I realized was red halfway through (I was daydreaming about lunch). I was mortified, and then after I got though the intersection I looked up and there were cop lights in my mirror. Female cop. I explained how I was daydreaming about lunch. She let me go with a stern warning. It wasn't a conscious decision on my part, but it happened.
That being said, I have another instance of white tears where I did use them purposefully. In high school some bitch accused my latina friend of stealing a cd. My friend's locker was searched and the cd was found (because it was HER cd and the bitch just wanted it). I confronted the bitch and she started boohooing. I thought, "fuck it" and started crying and asking why she was lying and why was she being so mean. LOL! In the end, my friend got to keep her cd, and the other bitch got a stern lecture. *eye roll* My friend was all, "WTF was all that crying about?!"
Yes, white tears are real, and it transfers into all areas of life. Including into playing dumb when caught doing something wrong. It's infuriating (as a white person) when women do it to me, so I can empathize without feeling the full scope of the damage it does to POC.
Post by mrsukyankee on Apr 19, 2018 9:31:13 GMT -5
Thanks for posting this. I've had quite a few sessions about this with a young black woman I've worked with. For obvious reasons I can't go into details, but let's just say that white women both in charge and her peers are pulling all sorts of white fragility/you are a strong black woman crap to her detriment. I feel I can be a better therapist for her due to the POC on this board.
Clearly white women are of the devil. Nothing they do is right and they have absolutely no value (ESPECIALLY after the age of 35.) Do the world a favor and just die already.
Clearly white women are of the devil. Nothing they do is right and they have absolutely no value (ESPECIALLY after the age of 35.) Do the world a favor and just die already.
Don't derail the conversation with this shit just because you want attention.
Clearly white women are of the devil. Nothing they do is right and they have absolutely no value (ESPECIALLY after the age of 35.) Do the world a favor and just die already.
Look how funny you are! made an AE just to show everybody how fragile bitch is done. Nice.
“Time and time again, I have learned that white women rarely have the emotional maturity to examine their racist actions and how they harm Black women and other women of color.”
Its truth is evident when presented with articles like this, where “our” (white women “our”) responses all fall into one or more categories: (1) navel gazing about persisting on being woke, (2) white tears over our past white tears, or (3) generic “white people suck” observations.
I’ve been guilty of this myself before. I am by no means absolving myself of some of my past cringe worthy posts or taking the high horse.
But I think we white women should think about our auto-replies to these race threads and what that says about our emotional maturity. Most of us white women seem to discuss with an eye towards getting approval from posters here, not with an eye to “doing better.” What does that say about us white posters and whether we have the emotional maturity to be “allies,” whatever that means?
The article isn’t just a rant about white tears, but a thoughtful examination of how they are used to oppress and dismiss concerns of women of color and black women specifically. We shouldn’t be talking about the white tears of our past like they are part of our old embarrassing collection of CDs from 1996.
I haven’t figured out the “right way” to deal with my own white tears so I don’t pretend to have the answers. But I do know that falling over ourselves to get credit for signing the guestbook isn’t the way.
andwhat, thanks for the reminder that it is not just literal tears, I mean it was getting a little crazy in here. Tears take so many forms, WW playing the victim whenever they are called to task is my biggest work related pet peeve. They don't have to cry to put on that woe is me bs.
It's been 13 years since I last worked in an office with a person of color so I can't say I've seen this first hand but I believe every bit of it because I have seen white women use it on other white women in offices.
For years I've had my wife express to me so much frustration with people bursting into tears when confronted or called on something. I can't cry on demand nor have I ever been told to cry to get out of something. But the truth is, that during some of our early fights tears came way too easy for me. I thought I was just emotional or blamed her for being mean. Truth is, that although it was unconscious, the idea of confrontation was much bigger in my head (OMG I'm being attacked) and the tears served to try to stop it. Lot's of time and hard work has been put in since then to be cognizant of this and make sure it doesn't continue to happen. Learning to allow myself to feel uncomfortable in situations, absorb the situation, and not try to run from it in order to avoid confrontation (while still an effort) has actually been emotionally freeing.
Also people, it does not have to be actual tears. Please stop saying you don't like to cry. It is about making yourself seem like the victim. It is Taylor Swifting. I don't think I have ever seen her cry, but she knows how to play the victim. Why do you all constantly focus on the wrong thing?
And I think this is an important point. Because then it brings the victim shaming comments and the staunch protectors out. WTF? This fragile bitch with her made up victimization does NOT need you at her back! And then the WW are all worn out from all their “social justice” and keyboard warrior shit over made up situations, so they still don’t focus on any real issue ever. They’re busy recovering with their wine and Valium, congratulating other “mama bears” for being so tough. Bish, you haven’t even DONE anything!
Post by emoflamingo on Apr 19, 2018 10:02:00 GMT -5
Thank you for the articles and thought provoking conversations. Daily. I read them all but I don’t add to the chorus of “I’ll do better” because I know the actions are better. Recognizing the conditioning that we have gone through is important and I hope that I am improving myself for those in my life so that I can raise my kids without the same conditioning.
Both of these articles really show that even if we think we are an ally, we’ve got so much damn work to do. I’ve been thinking about the notion of white fragility and white tears, and it’s really eye-opening. It’s made me look at things in such a different way, and has made me look at my actions, how I want to be in the future, and how I want to raise my daughter. We have a shit ton of work to do, but I hope we can get there. It’s no wonder that so many POC don’t trust us.
There are no such things as allies.
"Being an ally" has definitely become the go-to way to escape white guilt. We've had a number of diversity training sessions at work this year and they're all in the context of "being an ally." Which is interesting as it still centers the white person and his/her experience. Plus, the whole thing is delivered from the perspective that allyship is possible without white people giving up institutional power. Which, LOL.
Post by Champagne Supernova on Apr 19, 2018 10:09:41 GMT -5
I see this at work and outside of work. Confrontation = tears even if they deserve said confrontation and criticism and you're an asshole for making them cry.
Also people, it does not have to be actual tears. Please stop saying you don't like to cry. It is about making yourself seem like the victim. It is Taylor Swifting. I don't think I have ever seen her cry, but she knows how to play the victim. Why do you all constantly focus on the wrong thing?
Because they want to point out that THEY don't cry. This isn’t about THEM.
There’s really no possible good response from the white women on these boards. It’s either “thank you, I’m listening and learning”, false assertions that we’ll do better with a small mention of an example trying to show how we’re already at least a little bit better than the women in the article.
Also, I’m going call bullshit on all this, “I’m going to be more aware of this going forward”. It’s truly laughable. Is that the 2018 version of listening and learning?
...and WTF does 'I have a lot of work to do' mean? I see that frequently, just stop being a racist, fragile asshole, and get out of the way.
This really bothers me as well. Like, don't fucking think about it, don't just be aware of it, just stop being a racist shitpig.
Also people, it does not have to be actual tears. Please stop saying you don't like to cry. It is about making yourself seem like the victim. It is Taylor Swifting. I don't think I have ever seen her cry, but she knows how to play the victim. Why do you all constantly focus on the wrong thing?
It seems ironic to me that many of us WW in this thread are turning this and making this about ourselves (I can't help crying, I NEVER cry, etc) once again rather than stepping out of the way and just accepting that we are part of the problem. We don't need to make excuses, we need to accept that we are part of the problem and straight up fix it going forward, not think about it going forward.
Also people, it does not have to be actual tears. Please stop saying you don't like to cry. It is about making yourself seem like the victim. It is Taylor Swifting. I don't think I have ever seen her cry, but she knows how to play the victim. Why do you all constantly focus on the wrong thing?
It seems ironic to me that many of us WW in this thread are turning this and making this about ourselves (I can't help crying, I NEVER cry, etc) once again rather than stepping out of the way and just accepting that we are part of the problem. We don't need to make excuses, we need to accept that we are part of the problem and straight up fix it going forward, not think about it going forward.
And not expect accolades for trying to do better. It's being a decent human being. You don't deserve a cookie for it.
Post by downtoearth on Apr 19, 2018 10:34:46 GMT -5
Read both and checked out comments on twitter. I am guessing I'm not unique in not seeing a woman cry at work (Engineering/Science 40 yr old woman means I primarily have worked my career as the only woman in the office or remotely), but that doesn't mean that I haven't heard stories and anecdotes for the last 15+ years that back this ish up, but like andwhat said, it's not the tears so much as a the victim mindset that is prevalent and unconsciously part of us.
Also people, it does not have to be actual tears. Please stop saying you don't like to cry. It is about making yourself seem like the victim. It is Taylor Swifting. I don't think I have ever seen her cry, but she knows how to play the victim. Why do you all constantly focus on the wrong thing?
YES. For pete's sake people. I don't cry at work. I still realize that I have the power of "white tears." One of the posts in the OP even specifically mentions that its not just about literal tears.
I want to say something helpful or enlightening but I’ve got nothing.
I feel at war with myself when these conversations come up. On one hand I want to believe that WW can acknowledge their issues, confront them and do better but on the other hand life experience tells me that a zebra doesn’t change its strips.
I have some amazing white friends that I don’t believe would purposely hurt me. Unconsciously on the other hand....
I also think it’s interssting that people get sensitive about these topics but Black people and black women are called to evaluate themselves all the time. We have to be responsible for dealing with teen pregnancy that plagued our community (eye roll), responsible to end black on black crime (kiss my ass), responsible for figuring out why black women earn less than others, can’t keep a man, have high blood pressure, have an attitude problem, so on and so on. You will be ok when you are forced to answer for your race and sex.
This is where I am. White women aren't going to acknowledge their issues with this as a whole, because it benefits them. I wouldn't either, so whatever. All I can worry about is myself and the people I'm raising. I don't have white friends - never have, actually. It's just not something that I think is healthy for me. Actually, I did have one who I had to cut off finally when she told me that my 3-year-old daughter had inherited my judgmental stare. If that's not the most neurotic, fragile, thing to say I don't know what is, and it just illustrates how early white girls begin to see themselves as victims of black people. I mean, even a child has you all up in your feelings. It's just a poor look all around. I didn't want her visiting her toxicity on my kid, so we're done.
It's also why my daughter has a black teacher, even though I might have liked her to do one of the immersion classes. This school to prison pipeline, with our babies being viewed as springing from the womb as fully formed criminals and predators starts with the white women in our classrooms. This was a pro tip from my parents who have been social workers for 40+ years, which is another field heavily skewed toward white women that has done untold damage to black kids.
So, yeah. I don't have anything helpful to add. What I will say though is that I do actually think the benefit of recognizing this for black people is that we actually can do better and evaluate ourselves based on articles like this. So white women are going to do what they do. How has this affected us, and what can we do to change that? That's a separate conversation, but it's a valuable one I think. FWIW, I don't think the solution is for black women to become even tougher, because at the end of the day we only do that as a defense mechanism against white people. That's no way to live, and I wish more black people would just extricate themselves from the white gaze and interactions to the extent that is comfortable. I have so many friends who come to me with their white people problems, and I'm like, "so stop dealing with them unless it's work related?" I'm always surprised at how that's such a novel option for them.