That first article is pretty on point. I don't know that I can add much of anything to this conversation, nor does this seem like the kind of thread that I should take part in, but I appreciate you posting these and wanted to acknowledge that I read the first one.
Post by runforrest on Apr 18, 2018 22:49:39 GMT -5
Both of these articles really show that even if we think we are an ally, we’ve got so much damn work to do. I’ve been thinking about the notion of white fragility and white tears, and it’s really eye-opening. It’s made me look at things in such a different way, and has made me look at my actions, how I want to be in the future, and how I want to raise my daughter. We have a shit ton of work to do, but I hope we can get there. It’s no wonder that so many POC don’t trust us.
Thanks for posting. I was following some of Luvvie's comments on fB about this but hadn't read the blog post yet.
I feel like this is what many WOC on this board have been saying for years now - they don't trust white women, and they don't need to be friends with us, because - among other reasons - we have the ability to turn into the victim at any moment, as soon as it benefits us.
The tears are so fucking annoying. Like, have you no dignity or self respect? This is why I can’t take people like this seriously. White women spontaneously combust at the drop of a hat. It’s not a good look.
No one gives a fuck about your feelings, Karen.
I haven't had an experience like the ones described in Luvvie's blog. But I notice that some of the white women at my job are so unable to deal with life. And they cry at work when overwelmed and share valium. It's bizarre.
What is this crying thing at work about?! It just happened to me yesterday...I get a instant message from a co-worker while I'm in a meeting, letting me know that one of my employees (51 y/o) is crying. I said, "is it an emergency, is something wrong with a family member?" No, she's overwhelmed. GTFOH...I said, she'll get over it.
I haven't had an experience like the ones described in Luvvie's blog. But I notice that some of the white women at my job are so unable to deal with life. And they cry at work when overwelmed and share valium. It's bizarre.
What is this crying thing at work about?! It just happened to me yesterday...I get a instant message from a co-worker while I'm in a meeting, letting me know that one of my employees (51 y/o) is crying. I said, "is it an emergency, is something wrong with a family member?" No, she's overwhelmed. GTFOH...I said, she'll get over it.
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At my old assignment I used to always say I wished I could cry on demand. It was a skill with the white girls and they used it to get what they wanted at the expense of black women. I couldn't wait to get out of there.
I read both articles, and even though I shouldn't need this stuff to be pointed out, I'm glad it is because it does make me really think about my interactions with POC.
I read these last night and have been thinking about them. Since the tears and fragility began being pointed out on the boards--and I am certain here or IRL I've white tearsed over something and probably more recently than I'd like to think--I've tried to be much more conscious of how and when I have and express emotion. Between that and how now I would weigh any call to the police with "is this worth the potential of someone dying," my mental approach to daily interaction in the world has changed. Not entirely or enough, but it's amazing once I looked around seriously how much I saw in myself and others that was awful.
Post by Velar Fricative on Apr 19, 2018 7:40:20 GMT -5
My boss (black woman) has shared many stories of white women colleagues who start crying the moment she calls them out on racist BS. They cry because “they’re not like that!!!!” They also believe that since they work for an organization that serves sizable black and Latinx residents, they can’t possibly be racist. Okay, so maybe don’t treat a peer who happens to be a black women like they’re not worthy of your presence.
Like many of the discussions on here, these articles make me think about my own actions and how differently the world treats POC. I was definitely raised to be fragile and learning not to cry in public was an actual struggle for me. I always thought I hated being so quick to cry; I saw it as a show of weakness and I hated it. I was too slow to recognize how it was a ploy and an advantage too.
Did your see that some YouTuber accused Luvvie of racism against white women for her article? And then deleted her comments (and the flaming) but said Luvvie deleted the whole thing?
I’ve experienced the tears of white women employees, & was baffled. These instances had nothing to do with race or even conflict, but I cannot imagine if it did or if I was a WOC. I was already SO embarrassed for her/ them trying to pull this fragility BS to get out of trouble; I can’t imagine adding racial/ cultural implications to the situation. I’m horrified at my peers sinking to this level, but even worse- completely denying going there, “because this is just my natural response!! Do you want me to Fake It?!” 🙄😏😟
Did your see that some YouTuber accused Luvvie of racism against white women for her article? And then deleted her comments (and the flaming) but said Luvvie deleted the whole thing?
Which exactly 100% proved Luvvie's point.
Here's a link:
I saw that last night. That youtuber looks like she is famous for being a troll? WTF to her 🤬
Post by partiallysunny on Apr 19, 2018 8:16:13 GMT -5
"White woman are uniquely positioned in this society—they are both one of the oppressed and also one of the oppressors, and that duality has long served to keep white women and women of color at odds. White women carry a lifetime “get out of jail card” and moving toward any legitimate racial reconciliation requires examining this phenomenon. It means developing a level of racial literacy that can be faced honestly which also includes looking at when have your emotions and tears been deployed against people of color. When have your emotions harmed others?"
I've thought about how, being a WW, I am an oppresser as well as the oppressed. But I've never really examined exactly when my emotions may have harmed others, especially POC. Actions, yes. Emotions, no. I keep thinking about high school. It's humbling and embarrassing.
Did your see that some YouTuber accused Luvvie of racism against white women for her article? And then deleted her comments (and the flaming) but said Luvvie deleted the whole thing?
Which exactly 100% proved Luvvie's point.
Here's a link:
#OprahCriesAllTheTimeAndItsBeautiful
Someone's missing the point of hashtags. Idiot (for several reasons).
Post by picksthemusic on Apr 19, 2018 8:20:18 GMT -5
Digesting this today. I see it a lot at my job (95% women), and DH tells me about it at his job too (his manager is a WOC), though there are a lot of instances that turn from white tears to something more nefarious (like trying to get her fired for bullshit reasons). I’m not sure most white women would be able to or even want to acknowledge the effect we are having. That is not to say I don’t have a shit ton of work to do myself. Thank you for posting.
Post by lightbulbsun on Apr 19, 2018 8:24:55 GMT -5
Thank you for posting the articles. I was raised in a white, suburban bubble, and this board has really forced me to evaluate my behavior. I hate crying and don't do it often, but I'm sure that I've been guilty of white woman tears in the past. It's something I'll be more cognizant of going forward.
Post by mrs.jacinthe on Apr 19, 2018 8:34:41 GMT -5
I don't want to read and not comment, but there's not a lot to say. I've read both articles and I see the point. Although I was not raised to be fragile, I've definitely been guilty of using fragility to my advantage in the past (NOT against POC, but in general) - although I've changed a lot since that time in my life - but it makes me feel a little sick, reading how it can harm others. I'm not an emotional person, typically, so it was actually more WORK for me to be that way, and that disgusts me about myself. I'm sorry. I'll do better.
Thanks for posting. I was following some of Luvvie's comments on fB about this but hadn't read the blog post yet.
I feel like this is what many WOC on this board have been saying for years now - they don't trust white women, and they don't need to be friends with us, because - among other reasons - we have the ability to turn into the victim at any moment, as soon as it benefits us.
I saw the comments on Luvvie's FB page as well, but also had not read the blog post. Thank you, socratic, for posting both of these.
I follow Luvvie on FB and read these posts a couple of days ago. The tears on demand of my fellow WW annoy the fuck out of me but, of course, I hadn't thought of them as a weapon of oppression until reading these posts. Recently another article came across my FB feed encouraging women to cry at work. I didn't read it because I hate crying at work.
Thank you for sharing. I saw Luvvie's post on FB, but hadn't had a chance to read the original blog.
Luvvie's last line: "It’s interesting. White people have somehow created the narrative that Black and brown people are violent. When they have been the most violent and traumatizing people in history." Reminded me of a new (to me) podcast that I just started. Not sure if it's been recommended on here before: podcast.cdsporch.org/seeing-white/ but white women, bookmark it
Post by Miss Phryne Fisher on Apr 19, 2018 8:55:44 GMT -5
I read the article and keep thinking of something to post, but really, it all comes out as "but, but...oh damn, Luvvie is right". I am trying to re-evaluate.
Post by WanderingWinoZ on Apr 19, 2018 8:57:46 GMT -5
Thank you for sharing - there's no end to the examples and methods that WW have become part of the machine of oppression for POC, especially WOC. It's both as I see these behaviors and patterns in myself (now and in the past) and in others around me, but I am grateful to people like Luuvie who are speaking out and bringing more (WW) attention and awareness to racism.
Post by captainobvious on Apr 19, 2018 8:59:43 GMT -5
Thank you for posting these.
I'm a crier - I cry when I'm happy, when I'm sad, when I'm angry, etc. It's really annoying (to me, and probably everyone else). I need to work more on controlling that.
Post by underwaterrhymes on Apr 19, 2018 9:01:16 GMT -5
It’s both sad and infuriating that so many of us ww were taught to use tears, both as a means of deepening the trench between men and women, and - simultaneously - as a weapon against people of color.
How incredibly fucked up.
And it doesn’t matter if I (or you) have never knowingly or recently or intentionally used tears in this way. We are all part of the system.
There is a difference between teaching our children that tears are okay versus tears are something to be used to get out of something or as an attempt to make people feel bad.
I think the one saving grace I’ve noticed, IRL, in our area, is that these tears have a shelf life.
Once a white woman ages out of her “value” ( like about age 35, when no one wants her around anymore), the tears get ignored, as she becomes more and more invisible to society. No one responds to her attention seeking behavior, or dramatic tantrums, but her equally awful frenemies, in the same boat, and her empty wine bottle.
Perhaps I should be mad about how sexist that pattern appears to be, but ... meh. It’s like poetic justice.
I had not thought about it like this before but this is very true and I can see it in patterns of behavior in my work.
******** Thanks for posting Socratic. I haven’t read yet as I have been popping in and out of the board the last few months with irregularity and infrequency but am glad this bumped to the top of the page today.
I follow Luvvie on FB and read these posts a couple of days ago. The tears on demand of my fellow WW annoy the fuck out of me but, of course, I hadn't thought of them as a weapon of oppression until reading these posts. Recently another article came across my FB feed encouraging women to cry at work. I didn't read it because I hate crying at work.