Also people, it does not have to be actual tears. Please stop saying you don't like to cry. It is about making yourself seem like the victim. It is Taylor Swifting. I don't think I have ever seen her cry, but she knows how to play the victim. Why do you all constantly focus on the wrong thing?
thank you for saying this. I'm a very literal person, and this helped me understand it better.
Post by underwaterrhymes on Apr 19, 2018 10:50:16 GMT -5
What’s also fucked up is that we determine the standard for how women should be as either frailty or strength defined by how we personally employ it.
Black women and other women of color are repeatedly called out for being angry or scary. We routinely don’t allow them to take up the space they’re entitled to have, or to engage or express themselves in the manner they choose or need, but we are quick to pat ww on the head for their own reactions (you’re doing great, mama!)
Continuing to set the standard in what is and is not okay in terms of emotion, is another way in which we refuse to relinquish the institutionalized privilege we have.
Thanks for posting this. I've had quite a few sessions about this with a young black woman I've worked with. For obvious reasons I can't go into details, but let's just say that white women both in charge and her peers are pulling all sorts of white fragility/you are a strong black woman crap to her detriment. I feel I can be a better therapist for her due to the POC on this board.
Of fuck no. I’m honestly shocked she’d want you as her provider. The last thing I’d want for my mental health, is a therapist who wasn’t of color. For this reason, we pay out of pocket to go to a multicultural center.
She's using a free university counselling service. After our service was done (just last week), I suggested a POC counsellor who accepts low fees for university students. I do recognise that I can't fully serve her as a white woman - I was there to listen and to teach some skills around dealing with anxious thoughts, but I know my limits.
Post by bugandbibs on Apr 19, 2018 11:48:02 GMT -5
The first article really hit home for me. I'm a WOC, but I am not black. I generally don't fear for my life- my experience is more in line with racial bias, prejudice, being the token immigrant friend, shoplifting side. It's a thousand cuts over a lifetime. It's draining, and makes me wary of white people.
It really effects how I raise my kids. Where they go to school, the activities they do. My kids are in Spanish Immersion school in part because the classroom is so diverse. So far, all of her teachers has been native Spanish speakers and woc. At my own work, I have sought out friendships with the other minorities (we are also an Immersion School) and keep things surface with my white co-workers. White fragility and the white savoir concept are a particular frustration for me on the day to day. I'll never leave my low-income, very brown school because these kids and their families deserve to have someone in their corner that respects who they are and where they are coming from.
share.memebox.com/x/uKhKaZmemebox referal code for 20% off! DD1 "J" born 3/2003 DD2 "G" born 4/2011 DS is here! "H" born 2/2014 m/c#3 1-13-13 @ 9 weeks m/c#2 11-11-12 @ 5w2d I am an extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, baby wearing, pro marriage equality, birth control lovin', Catholic mama.
Post by phdprocrastinator on Apr 19, 2018 11:57:52 GMT -5
Apr 19, 2018 7:38:22 GMT -7 ESF said: This line jumped out at me:
“Time and time again, I have learned that white women rarely have the emotional maturity to examine their racist actions and how they harm Black women and other women of color.”
I have been thinking a lot about the cycle of socialization of white women (white woman myself and mom of two white daughters) and how that socialization leads to many of the situations described in essays like the ones in the OP. As a WW, I have been socialized not to speak up, particularly against men or people in authority. I'm not supposed to be angry. Or strong... I'm supposed to make the world a place in which white men are comfortable. The only acceptable emotion other than happiness is sadness. In return I get the power of whiteness.
So, when you're angry... cry. When you're tired... cry. When you're frustrated... cry. When you're in trouble... cry. (and no, I'm not a crier, so when I say "cry" I'm talking about the generally accepted fragility of the white woman).
When WW see blatant harassment of others, their reaction is the wide-eyed "are you ok" (meaning "you-will-be-ok-don't-make-a-scene") to sweep everything under the rug. This is our job... and so we cry when we're told our very function in society is problematic. It's what we do.
As a white woman, raising white girls... I honestly don't know how to break this cycle. I admit that I am part of the problem, but it's an issue of identifying when I use my fragility to my advantage, which has been so ingrained that it's almost impossible to see.
It is much harder than I would like to admit for me to speak up, in almost any situation.
For example, in a situation that has nothing to do with race, last summer, I was at the beach with my family. As we were heading back to the car, my then-5-year-old was dawdling behind me. I turned to tell her to hurry up, and when I did, I saw a man reaching out to put his hand on her back. I looked at him, confused but assuming he would say something along the lines of "looked like she was going to wander into traffic" or something similar (even though we were nowhere near traffic). Instead, he pulled his hand back in shock and began walking quickly past us, then running across the street. I didn't say anything to anyone until we had gotten back home, gotten the girls occupied with something else, and I could tell my husband what happened in private. My husband hugged me and told me everything would be alright, when honestly he would have had every right to question my response.
To this day, it kills me that I placed not-making-a-scene above the safety of my child. How am I supposed to speak up when I see discrimination against POC (or really, anyone) if I can't even speak up in defense of my child? And how do I teach my girls to be angry and strong and all of those good things if I can't do it myself?
I'm sorry, this is all over the place. I think this can be summed up as "I will try to be more aware moving forward," but that's a pretty trite response.
I’m not sure how this is so surprising. Don’t half of you talk about living in areas that are like 80% white, and having no black friends?
Many people I know are the only black person in their office, and have been for years.
Even having to be told that this even a thing is a huge privilege check for me.
Raises hand as I live in rural ass white Vermont. I have exactly one POC who telecommutes and I have not worked in any other office or job that has had POC. I think about this regularly.
*I was, until last month, the only WOMAN at my company as well. We now employ one other woman who works 2 days a week.
Post by lissaholly on Apr 19, 2018 12:24:06 GMT -5
Hindsight is 20/20 and I have definitely said crying is a “defensive mechanism.” I’ve cried when getting pulled over, I’ve even cried when I fucked up in a college class, and I was excused. It’s an ugly trait, that I recognize now with maturity. I
I have called my daughter out for being the victim. She does something/says something nasty to her sister and then cries when I point out how nasty it was. I told her you can’t be mean and then get the sympathy for feeling bad about being mean, and explained that those tears are manipulative. If you get hurt you can cry, if you do the hurting then you don’t get that luxury. I am holding her to a standard I didn’t hold myself to when younger. I hope I am breaking that pattern, after perpetuating it myself. I have been approaching it from a self awareness angle, but I see now that it is a lot more nefarious.
I keep thinking about the white women who probably “listened to their gut” and probably are hearing “ You didn’t mean any harm, you did the right thing with the right intentions.” from friends and family. The white women who caused her husband to wake up and grab a gun so he could shoot at a fleeing lost kid, and the white woman who felt emboldened to ask two gentlemen to leave her business because they weren’t buying anything ( yet). If these women weren’t getting national feedback, these incidents would be forgotten as quickly as they occurred. These articles are powerful in their demonstration of how microaggressions truly camouflage themselves, making it hard for anyone to acknowledge or admit to them.
I feel like being taught not to make scenes is very different from using white tears. Or that we are able to not "make a scene" because we can accomplish our goal in a different way. (I don't like the term "make a scene" anyway.)
We (white women) are, and have been, raised on the Regency Romance version of “life goals.” I think phdprocrastinator stated it well, at least from the “this is why we cry” POV. But a la Regency Romance, it’s also a way to gain control and be manipulative, even if it’s not seen as such. Because “it’s just who we are.” And just like everything else, it’s generational. From Victorian, Regency to current times, we’re the “weaker” sex and those of us who want to fight that *still* fall into the trap of “I’m not weak! Look at how strong I am” looking for approbation for *not* being a weak little Victorian miss who tears up any time something doesn’t go her way. I”m as guilty of this as every other white person who was raised that this dram is our goal. Get a man to take care of you and live happily ever after. Something happens to “bruise” you, :sniffle :sob :handwringing commences Man hands you kerchief and shuffles uncomfortable and :boom you’re back in control of the situation. Bat your eyelashes and he’s putty in your hands.
As for TS, she’s employed this brilliantly. She’s not-a-cryer but she tears up, pulls her shoulders back, and powers through...by writing songs about how she’s been wronged and she’s strong and will get through. It’s made her tens of millions of dollars and a rabid following of fans who “understand and respect her for it because we can all relate.”
It’s not just in novels. It’s something we’ve learned without realizing it, and we employ it All The Time.
I feel like being taught not to make scenes is very different from using white tears. Or that we are able to not "make a scene" because we can accomplish our goal in a different way. (I don't like the term "make a scene" anyway.)
I agree with you - I hate the phrase, but I also remember it being used to correct my behavior and I believe there is still a pervasive notion that (white) women shouldn't make a scene.
Your second sentence gets at part of what I was trying to say. Because we can't make a scene, we use our fragility to get our way in such a way that we can then deny that we ever intended for the consequence (getting someone kicked out, getting someone fired, getting someone shot, etc.).
We then can use that fragility to get people to assuage our guilt for us (see my husband comforting *me* when I told him I had failed to protect our child).
It's been 13 years since I last worked in an office with a person of color
What.
I'm not saying that the organizations as a whole don't employ POC, but in the departments I've worked in (ranging from 1.5FTE to 4.5FTE) there haven't been many people of color. I'm in nonprofit fundraising which is very white field to begin with.
Not that it makes it better, but I realize I made a mistake. I was thinking specifically of WOC and that was 13 years ago. I have since had an Asian male and Hispanic male boss.
Is it really so odd though that work places could be so segregated? My current job is in a very rural farm town, which is only 1.7% black. My department is 1.5FTE which doesn't leave a whole hell of a lot of room for department diversity.
Apr 19, 2018 7:38:22 GMT -7 ESF said: This line jumped out at me:
“Time and time again, I have learned that white women rarely have the emotional maturity to examine their racist actions and how they harm Black women and other women of color.”
I have been thinking a lot about the cycle of socialization of white women (white woman myself and mom of two white daughters) and how that socialization leads to many of the situations described in essays like the ones in the OP. As a WW, I have been socialized not to speak up, particularly against men or people in authority. I'm not supposed to be angry. Or strong... I'm supposed to make the world a place in which white men are comfortable. The only acceptable emotion other than happiness is sadness. In return I get the power of whiteness.
So, when you're angry... cry. When you're tired... cry. When you're frustrated... cry. When you're in trouble... cry. (and no, I'm not a crier, so when I say "cry" I'm talking about the generally accepted fragility of the white woman).
When WW see blatant harassment of others, their reaction is the wide-eyed "are you ok" (meaning "you-will-be-ok-don't-make-a-scene") to sweep everything under the rug. This is our job... and so we cry when we're told our very function in society is problematic. It's what we do.
As a white woman, raising white girls... I honestly don't know how to break this cycle. I admit that I am part of the problem, but it's an issue of identifying when I use my fragility to my advantage, which has been so ingrained that it's almost impossible to see.
It is much harder than I would like to admit for me to speak up, in almost any situation.
For example, in a situation that has nothing to do with race, last summer, I was at the beach with my family. As we were heading back to the car, my then-5-year-old was dawdling behind me. I turned to tell her to hurry up, and when I did, I saw a man reaching out to put his hand on her back. I looked at him, confused but assuming he would say something along the lines of "looked like she was going to wander into traffic" or something similar (even though we were nowhere near traffic). Instead, he pulled his hand back in shock and began walking quickly past us, then running across the street. I didn't say anything to anyone until we had gotten back home, gotten the girls occupied with something else, and I could tell my husband what happened in private. My husband hugged me and told me everything would be alright, when honestly he would have had every right to question my response.
To this day, it kills me that I placed not-making-a-scene above the safety of my child. How am I supposed to speak up when I see discrimination against POC (or really, anyone) if I can't even speak up in defense of my child? And how do I teach my girls to be angry and strong and all of those good things if I can't do it myself?
I'm sorry, this is all over the place. I think this can be summed up as "I will try to be more aware moving forward," but that's a pretty trite response.
I am quoting because this is an interesting perspective. I did not grow up the same way - I was raised differently, with my parents focused on making sure we spoke up for ourselves and were strong (never look weak, cry=weakness, act like you belong even if you're the only girl, take responsibility for good and bad, etc.). I still think that this strong, white woman, no-nonsense perspective can, and is as has been shown, toxic to others. It's somewhat like Lean-In where you try to be more white-man-masculine to overcompensate for an oppression in the environment instead of using your perspective to broaden that environment's expectations.
Do you think that both these perspectives have the commonality that the oppressed are also the oppressors at the same time, but that both want to devalue their part in the oppression and play-up their part as the oppressed? Just thinking here... no answers from me.
Apr 19, 2018 7:38:22 GMT -7 ESF said: This line jumped out at me:
“Time and time again, I have learned that white women rarely have the emotional maturity to examine their racist actions and how they harm Black women and other women of color.”
I have been thinking a lot about the cycle of socialization of white women (white woman myself and mom of two white daughters) and how that socialization leads to many of the situations described in essays like the ones in the OP. As a WW, I have been socialized not to speak up, particularly against men or people in authority. I'm not supposed to be angry. Or strong... I'm supposed to make the world a place in which white men are comfortable. The only acceptable emotion other than happiness is sadness. In return I get the power of whiteness.
So, when you're angry... cry. When you're tired... cry. When you're frustrated... cry. When you're in trouble... cry. (and no, I'm not a crier, so when I say "cry" I'm talking about the generally accepted fragility of the white woman).
i still find all of this inherently manipulative.
i am extremely sensitive, it's just my nature. i cry as my sole release of emotions, too, so that i understand completely.
i rarely ever, EVER, cry in front of people, my husband included. i hold my shit together until i am alone.
this is LITERALLY the point of the articles. i don't use my emotions as weapons against those around me, nor do i act like some victim who can only be either happy or sad. lol.
ww can't be angry? i was raised by a ww with two white sisters. lollll for days that ww are discouraged from being angry.
on the other hand, i guess this is proof that ww will manipulate everyone "beneath" them because they're pissed they're forever in 2nd behind white men.
I thought I was the only one. Her experience is her own, but the white women I’ve encountered will readily turn up, red-faced, fingers pointing, and screeching when they don’t get their way. This is why the whole white tears idea is only of passing interest to me. I’ve never actually seen it in action. What I see is, as you said, white women hulking out as white men when it’s convenient. I believe they call that, “leaning in”. The tears usually come long after they’re called out for acting crazy.
Apr 19, 2018 7:38:22 GMT -7 ESF said: This line jumped out at me:
“Time and time again, I have learned that white women rarely have the emotional maturity to examine their racist actions and how they harm Black women and other women of color.”
I have been thinking a lot about the cycle of socialization of white women (white woman myself and mom of two white daughters) and how that socialization leads to many of the situations described in essays like the ones in the OP. As a WW, I have been socialized not to speak up, particularly against men or people in authority. I'm not supposed to be angry. Or strong... I'm supposed to make the world a place in which white men are comfortable. The only acceptable emotion other than happiness is sadness. In return I get the power of whiteness.
So, when you're angry... cry. When you're tired... cry. When you're frustrated... cry. When you're in trouble... cry. (and no, I'm not a crier, so when I say "cry" I'm talking about the generally accepted fragility of the white woman).
When WW see blatant harassment of others, their reaction is the wide-eyed "are you ok" (meaning "you-will-be-ok-don't-make-a-scene") to sweep everything under the rug. This is our job... and so we cry when we're told our very function in society is problematic. It's what we do.
As a white woman, raising white girls... I honestly don't know how to break this cycle. I admit that I am part of the problem, but it's an issue of identifying when I use my fragility to my advantage, which has been so ingrained that it's almost impossible to see.
It is much harder than I would like to admit for me to speak up, in almost any situation.
For example, in a situation that has nothing to do with race, last summer, I was at the beach with my family. As we were heading back to the car, my then-5-year-old was dawdling behind me. I turned to tell her to hurry up, and when I did, I saw a man reaching out to put his hand on her back. I looked at him, confused but assuming he would say something along the lines of "looked like she was going to wander into traffic" or something similar (even though we were nowhere near traffic). Instead, he pulled his hand back in shock and began walking quickly past us, then running across the street. I didn't say anything to anyone until we had gotten back home, gotten the girls occupied with something else, and I could tell my husband what happened in private. My husband hugged me and told me everything would be alright, when honestly he would have had every right to question my response.
To this day, it kills me that I placed not-making-a-scene above the safety of my child. How am I supposed to speak up when I see discrimination against POC (or really, anyone) if I can't even speak up in defense of my child? And how do I teach my girls to be angry and strong and all of those good things if I can't do it myself?
I'm sorry, this is all over the place. I think this can be summed up as "I will try to be more aware moving forward," but that's a pretty trite response.
I want to say something helpful or enlightening but I’ve got nothing.
I feel at war with myself when these conversations come up. On one hand I want to believe that WW can acknowledge their issues, confront them and do better but on the other hand life experience tells me that a zebra doesn’t change its strips.
I have some amazing white friends that I don’t believe would purposely hurt me. Unconsciously on the other hand....
I also think it’s interssting that people get sensitive about these topics but Black people and black women are called to evaluate themselves all the time. We have to be responsible for dealing with teen pregnancy that plagued our community (eye roll), responsible to end black on black crime (kiss my ass), responsible for figuring out why black women earn less than others, can’t keep a man, have high blood pressure, have an attitude problem, so on and so on. You will be ok when you are forced to answer for your race and sex.
Ditto to the bold part. I cannot put into words my internal battle, if I tried to type it out it would be word vomit.
For those with young kids, DD1 (9) read three books by Rita Williams-Garcia. "One Crazy Summer", "P.S. Be Eleven" and "Gone Crazy in Alabama". I decided to read them as well, I haven't got the last one yet. It is about 3 black girls growing up in the late 60's. It has created some great conversation and talking points with my daughter. Big Ma is yelling at the girls to "not create a grand Negro Spectacle". That line, while short, speaks volumes to me.
The first article really hit home for me. I'm a WOC, but I am not black. I generally don't fear for my life- my experience is more in line with racial bias, prejudice, being the token immigrant friend, shoplifting side. It's a thousand cuts over a lifetime. It's draining, and makes me wary of white people.
Cosigned. Except that most of my friends are white bc of where I grew up and went to school. Then I went and married a white man. He's now more aware of how things are for POC/WOC as I point things out to him and often beats me to the punch when calling things out now.
As a WW, I have been socialized not to speak up, particularly against men or people in authority. I'm not supposed to be angry. Or strong... I'm supposed to make the world a place in which white men are comfortable. The only acceptable emotion other than happiness is sadness. In return I get the power of whiteness.
I don't necessarily believe this is true. There are several areas where white women have been taught that we can raise our voices loudly to "defend our own". Such as anything in relation to our children, and our perceived morals.
The first article really hit home for me. I'm a WOC, but I am not black. I generally don't fear for my life- my experience is more in line with racial bias, prejudice, being the token immigrant friend, shoplifting side. It's a thousand cuts over a lifetime. It's draining, and makes me wary of white people.
Cosigned. Except that most of my friends are white bc of where I grew up and went to school. Then I went and married a white man. He's now more aware of how things are for POC/WOC as I point things out to him and often beats me to the punch when calling things out now.
I know this is reality and I hate it. I hate that POC may be/are wary of me. I understand why and I don’t know how to change that.
Cosigned. Except that most of my friends are white bc of where I grew up and went to school. Then I went and married a white man. He's now more aware of how things are for POC/WOC as I point things out to him and often beats me to the punch when calling things out now.
I know this is reality and I hate it. I hate that POC may be/are wary of me. I understand why and I don’t know how to change that.
That is the thing though. You don't get to change anything. White men and women have controlled the narrative for so long. It's time to step back and recognize POC and their contributions.
I am quoting because this is an interesting perspective. I did not grow up the same way - I was raised differently, with my parents focused on making sure we spoke up for ourselves and were strong (never look weak, cry=weakness, act like you belong even if you're the only girl, take responsibility for good and bad, etc.). I still think that this strong, white woman, no-nonsense perspective can, and is as has been shown, toxic to others. It's somewhat like Lean-In where you try to be more white-man-masculine to overcompensate for an oppression in the environment instead of using your perspective to broaden that environment's expectations.
Do you think that both these perspectives have the commonality that the oppressed are also the oppressors at the same time, but that both want to devalue their part in the oppression and play-up their part as the oppressed? Just thinking here... no answers from me.
From this and other posts, I do have to acknowledge that I may be overgeneralizing my experience to all white women, although I'm not convinced it's entirely rare for white women to be raised to be the "smoother-overs" to make white men comfortable. But I can also acknowledge that I have a long way to go in learning to stick up for myself that may be unique to my own upbringing.
I'm definitely out of my depth here, but I wonder if there has been any work looking at the relationship between these perspectives. I absolutely agree that both perspectives enlist the oppressed (women are weaker than men) to be the oppressor (white women).
As I strive to raise girls who are better than me, I am wary of falling into the trap of white feminism with the goal of making sure my girls achieve equal status to white men, when white men need to lose some of their privilege. I've had this conversation with my husband about behavior - he has questioned how well-behaved our girls need to be because their (white) boy friends aren't held to the same standard ("boys will be boys"). My response is that I'm pretty sure those boys need to be taught better behavior. No one should be hitting anyone with sticks! But they should feel free to grab the stick out of their friend's hands if they're being hit...
I know this is reality and I hate it. I hate that POC may be/are wary of me. I understand why and I don’t know how to change that.
That is the thing though. You don't get to change anything. White men and women have controlled the narrative for so long. It's time to step back and recognize POC and their contributions.
Cosigned. Except that most of my friends are white bc of where I grew up and went to school. Then I went and married a white man. He's now more aware of how things are for POC/WOC as I point things out to him and often beats me to the punch when calling things out now.
I know this is reality and I hate it. I hate that POC may be/are wary of me. I understand why and I don’t know how to change that.
Your goal is not to make people of color like you. Your goal should not be about getting them to change their behavior. You need to get over that because that is a really awful, offensive way to approach dealing with your white privilege. Your job is to change your behavior and to change the behavior of other white people. Your job is to do the right thing regardless of whether you get "credit" for it.
From this and other posts, I do have to acknowledge that I may be overgeneralizing my experience to all white women, although I'm not convinced it's entirely rare for white women to be raised to be the "smoother-overs" to make white men comfortable. But I can also acknowledge that I have a long way to go in learning to stick up for myself that may be unique to my own upbringing.
I'm definitely out of my depth here, but I wonder if there has been any work looking at the relationship between these perspectives. I absolutely agree that both perspectives enlist the oppressed (women are weaker than men) to be the oppressor (white women).
As I strive to raise girls who are better than me, I am wary of falling into the trap of white feminism with the goal of making sure my girls achieve equal status to white men, when white men need to lose some of their privilege. I've had this conversation with my husband about behavior - he has questioned how well-behaved our girls need to be because their (white) boy friends aren't held to the same standard ("boys will be boys"). My response is that I'm pretty sure those boys need to be taught better behavior. No one should be hitting anyone with sticks! But they should feel free to grab the stick out of their friend's hands if they're being hit...
what does any of this have to do with POC?
i'm sorry, i just don't care. all of ever has been thinking and wondering about white perspectives. it's all been thought before. stop thinking.