The danger white women pose to POC

[raangoli]

Apr 19, 2018 14:03:58 GMT -5 keyslover said:

Apr 19, 2018 13:56:47 GMT -5 raangoli said:

That is the thing though. You don't get to change anything. White men and women have controlled the narrative for so long. It's time to step back and recognize POC and their contributions.

Even on a personal level? 

In my opinion, yes. Step back and realize that nothing you will do will change how a POC/WOC views you. Recognize that no matter what you do or how you think you have changed, it's up to the POC/WOC to make that final decision on whether they trust you and want to be friends with you. 

[Velar Fricative]

Apr 19, 2018 14:03:58 GMT -5 keyslover said:

Apr 19, 2018 13:56:47 GMT -5 raangoli said:

That is the thing though. You don't get to change anything. White men and women have controlled the narrative for so long. It's time to step back and recognize POC and their contributions.

Even on a personal level? 

You can’t do anything with the goal of somehow making POC magically like and trust white people. That should not be your goal. POC have been disliked (at best, typically far worse) by white people just because since the dawn of time. But now we want to make sure everyone knows how woke we are so they can trust us? No. Do the right things in your life just because it’s the right thing to do, not because you want people to feel a certain way about you. And oh, stand up to nonsense spewed by our fellow white people and call them out over dinner too. You shouldn’t need a black audience for that.

[evas76]

Apr 19, 2018 14:15:13 GMT -5 phdprocrastinator said:

Apr 19, 2018 14:05:20 GMT -5 @stilljustash said:

what does any of this have to do with POC?

i'm sorry, i just don't care. all of ever has been thinking and wondering about white perspectives. it's all been thought before. stop thinking.

I dunno, I admit I'm not good at this.

Girl....you dammed if you do and you dammed if you don't so just stop.

[keyslover]

Apr 19, 2018 14:14:34 GMT -5 ESF said:

Apr 19, 2018 13:43:47 GMT -5 keyslover said:

I know this is reality and I hate it. I hate that POC may be/are wary of me. I understand why and I don’t know how to change that.

Your goal is not to make people of color like you. Your goal should not be about getting them to change their behavior.  You need to get over that because that is a really awful, offensive way to approach dealing with your white privilege. Your job is to change your behavior and to change the behavior of other white people. Your job is to do the right thing regardless of whether you get "credit" for it.

Thanks. That’s the explanation I needed to hear. I didn’t “get it”. Perspective.

[keyslover]

Apr 19, 2018 14:19:57 GMT -5 raangoli said:

Apr 19, 2018 14:03:58 GMT -5 keyslover said:

Even on a personal level? 

In my opinion, yes. Step back and realize that nothing you will do will change how a POC/WOC views you. Recognize that no matter what you do or how you think you have changed, it's up to the POC/WOC to make that final decision on whether they trust you and want to be friends with you. 

Thanks. I am glad I chimed in, moreso I’m glad you did.
I was so focused on change, I missed the bigger picture.

[penguingrrl]

Even in a discussion about white women’s tears, it keeps coming back to experiences and emotions of white women. White women weaponozing emotionality has been ingrained culturally for a long time and obviously won’t change overnight, but the first step is recognizing where we’re using it and stopping. And not asking what we can do to make black people like us, but instead trying to address the underlying reasons that black peoples rightly distrust the white community in our own spheres of influence, without accolades or acknowledgement from anyone. Do t because it’s the right thing to do, not because you want to prove a point.

[keyslover]

Apr 19, 2018 14:22:09 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Apr 19, 2018 14:03:58 GMT -5 keyslover said:

Even on a personal level? 

You can’t do anything with the goal of somehow making POC magically like and trust white people. That should not be your goal. POC have been disliked (at best, typically far worse) by white people just because since the dawn of time. But now we want to make sure everyone knows how woke we are so they can trust us? No. Do the right things in your life just because it’s the right thing to do, not because you want people to feel a certain way about you. And oh, stand up to nonsense spewed by our fellow white people and call them out over dinner too. You shouldn’t need a black audience for that.

Thanks. As I said upthread to the response- perspective, I needed a new one.
I’m happy I chimed in on this thread.

[keyslover]

Apr 19, 2018 14:30:49 GMT -5 @tooshort said:

Apr 19, 2018 13:43:47 GMT -5 keyslover said:

I know this is reality and I hate it. I hate that POC may be/are wary of me. I understand why and I don’t know how to change that.

This is just missing the point.

Most of the WOC here have relationships with white people. Some may be more of a surface relationship but a relationship is there. IMO (I stress *I*), all I want you to do is be you and be genuine. Don’t try to be the bestest safety pin wearing ally ever. Don’t be a hood wearing racist either. The rest I can work out.

There are likely go to be some bumps. If you are open to listening and don’t try to Taylor swift me, we have a chance to be ok.

The people in my life have shown a genuine love for me that makes it worth putting in the time that goes into an interracial friendship.

I get it ; Kidding with that response.
I appreciate the time to respond to me. In all seriousness though, I get it now.

[pixy0stix]

Apr 19, 2018 14:34:34 GMT -5 @tooshort said:

Apr 19, 2018 14:23:31 GMT -5 evas76 said:

Girl....you dammed if you do and you dammed if you don't so just stop.

It’s because you all come here looking for some magic answer. You try to figure out the exact steps to not come off as racist. You wear your pins and claim “white women are the worst” as if that makes anyone feel better. You expect all WOC to agree. We don’t. We won’t. We aren’t monolithic. Sorry our diversity makes it hard to say the right thing to make us all happy. I can’t help you with that.

evas is a current iteration of one of our recurring trolls. The admins aren't on right now to deal with her, but I assume it will be when they are online.

[AJL]

Apr 19, 2018 9:50:56 GMT -5 twotrue said:

It's been 13 years since I last worked in an office with a person of color .

Do you live in Idaho?

[thejackpot]

This thread is exhausting. It really illustrates the gulf between WOC and WW, we can't stick to the weaponizing because the perpetrators are acting like frail victims with limited control over themselves and actions.

[AJL]

Also is white women checking in to say they read the articles, the new "listening and learning"?

[05heel]

I just want someone to be honest and say that they’re not interested in having black friends or in doing anything different. That would get things moving along.

[evas76]

Apr 19, 2018 14:34:34 GMT -5 @tooshort said:

Apr 19, 2018 14:23:31 GMT -5 evas76 said:

Girl....you dammed if you do and you dammed if you don't so just stop.

It’s because you all come here looking for some magic answer. You try to figure out the exact steps to not come off as racist. You wear your pins and claim “white women are the worst” as if that makes anyone feel better. You expect all WOC to agree. We don’t. We won’t. We aren’t monolithic. Sorry our diversity makes it hard to say the right thing to make us all happy. I can’t help you with that.

I don't know you and have no beef with you but you need to check your "you all" and all of your comments above.  I have never donned a damn safety pin, I don't care if you agree with me, I'm not stumbling around for the right thing to say b/c no matter what someone will be offended. It's honestly not worth the effort.  There is no  "magic answer" and I don't recall asking for anyone's help... I was just "helping" that women to try and stop eating her foot.

[bugandbibs]

I'm gonna sit on the bench with @tooshort. I'm wary, but I also believe that practice makes progress. I want to believe that people can grow and change if they start looking at where they really are. If we can loose the defensiveness and justifications- or really if you can just admit that you care more about your highlights than you do another person's civil rights, then we might have change.

I may not have the mental/emotional bnandwidth to walk with you on your journey, and WW need to not expect WOC to help them along the way. You need to do the work on yourself and in your community.

[evas76]

And I completely agree with TooShort and a few others who commented on the "checking in". It's like they are looking for extra credit. TamiTaylor (I'm sorry I don't know how to tag) seems to be one of the worst offenders.

[phdprocrastinator]

I'm not going to respond to the troll, but I do want to say that I've enjoyed this conversation. It's rare to find a group of people willing to talk about difficult things, and it's honestly what I need.

Although it would be much more hilarious if I got my panties in a bunch and flounced when people critiqued my thoughts, particularly in this thread.

I'm off to a committee meeting now. Definitely not flouncing

[evas76]

Apr 19, 2018 15:32:49 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Apr 19, 2018 15:03:46 GMT -5 evas76 said:

And I completely agree with TooShort and a few others who commented on the "checking in". It's like they are looking for extra credit. TamiTaylor (I'm sorry I don't know how to tag) seems to be one of the worst offenders.

Kindly keep TamiTaylor's name out your mouth. 

It was just an observation but from what I have seen of her posts she is the typical pandering white women looking for validation. I apologize if I have her confused with someone else. I have to go into a meeting so I am not ignoring further discussion.

[cookiemdough]

I am annoyed at all the “I was taught not to make waves” etc. what do you think POC are taught? To get buck wild any and every chance we get? Come on now. There are similar messages about not causing trouble, but ww do it to be liked. Black people do it is because we want to make sure we come home, or because we are taught not to feed into the stereotype or because we know black children are looked at more harshly when we step out of line.

Being taught to not make waves is not an excuse for the manipulation of your power by appearing powerless.

[captainobvious]

Apr 19, 2018 16:38:28 GMT -5 cookiemdough said:

I am annoyed at all the “I was taught not to make waves” etc. what do you think POC are taught? To get buck wild any and every chance we get? Come on now. There are similar messages about not causing trouble, but ww do it to be liked. Black people do it is because we want to make sure we come home, or because we are taught not to feed into the stereotype or because we know black children are looked at more harshly when we step out of line.

Being taught to not make waves is not an excuse for the manipulation of your power by appearing powerless.

That is an excellent way to put it.

[evas76]

Apr 19, 2018 16:38:36 GMT -5 @tooshort said:

Apr 19, 2018 16:35:43 GMT -5 socratic said:

You need to reevaluate this post

I’m not even going to bother. I think she’s the one that loves to tell us she’s a WOC therefore you can talk outta pocket to anyone she wants. I shouldn’t have even said anything. Hopefully she will be banned by this evening.

I don’t understand why I would be banned for being a WOC. I don’t know what you mean by talking out of pocket but I appreciate your POV I just don’t understand the general “you all”. It’s like you were responding to something I didn’t actually say? What you seemed to be calling me out on were things I don’t do, think, or say. FWIW thank you for your insight and thoughtfulness.

[LLL]

I feel like the chance of her actually being a WOC is slim to not at all.

[oliviapope]

Apr 19, 2018 14:52:29 GMT -5 05heel said:

I just want someone to be honest and say that they’re not interested in having black friends or in doing anything different. That would get things moving along.

Lol, yes. Maybe a few of you care. Maybe. But all y'all? Nah.

[05heel]

Apr 19, 2018 19:34:05 GMT -5 oliviapope said:

Apr 19, 2018 14:52:29 GMT -5 05heel said:

I just want someone to be honest and say that they’re not interested in having black friends or in doing anything different. That would get things moving along.

Lol, yes. Maybe a few of you care. Maybe. But all y'all? Nah.

Hell, even I don’t care so I call shenanigans on most of the responses. But I’ll let that ride because I don’t want to spoil the fun for everyone else.

[andwhat]

Apr 19, 2018 14:52:29 GMT -5 05heel said:

I just want someone to be honest and say that they’re not interested in having black friends or in doing anything different. That would get things moving along.

Yes this is reminding me of the posts about the 53% of white women voting against their own interests, when in fact they voted with their greatest interest in mind.

Yes, it may sound bad laid out like this, but who is really going to fight to give up their power and advantage. I mean it is against human nature.

[TamiTaylor]

Apr 19, 2018 15:32:49 GMT -5 @kirkette said:

Apr 19, 2018 15:03:46 GMT -5 evas76 said:

And I completely agree with TooShort and a few others who commented on the "checking in". It's like they are looking for extra credit. TamiTaylor (I'm sorry I don't know how to tag) seems to be one of the worst offenders.

Kindly keep TamiTaylor's name out your mouth. 

Aww thanks @kirkette.

[mouse]

These just went up all over town. It's not a bad reminder, and I hope it makes people uncomfortable. I have a series of conflicting internal responses to it (including discomfort), but somewhere in there is a feeling of freedom. I don't have to be coddled or stunted in order to keep my blinders on so that I don't have to change or give anything up. And that means I can be a better friend and member of my community. I'm not great at it, but the reward is much bigger than just not being seen as racist.

It sucks to know you've failed people. I'm sure it sucks to have been failed more.

[LLL]

Apr 19, 2018 20:06:21 GMT -5 05heel said:

Apr 19, 2018 19:34:05 GMT -5 oliviapope said:

Lol, yes. Maybe a few of you care. Maybe. But all y'all? Nah.

Hell, even I don’t care so I call shenanigans on most of the responses. But I’ll let that ride because I don’t want to spoil the fun for everyone else.

these posts are interesting (funny?) to me but likely not in the way they were intended. People are really tripping, trying to find the right things to say. 

[MrsAxilla]

Apr 19, 2018 20:09:31 GMT -5 andwhat said:

Apr 19, 2018 14:52:29 GMT -5 05heel said:

I just want someone to be honest and say that they’re not interested in having black friends or in doing anything different. That would get things moving along.

Yes this is reminding me of the posts about the 53% of white women voting against their own interests, when in fact they voted with their greatest interest in mind.

Yes, it may sound bad laid out like this, but who is really going to fight to give up their power and advantage. I mean it is against human nature.

My dad said something during the election that I keep coming back to, and each time I understand it better.  He said he was voting for trump because he just wanted all of us to be safe (gesturing to the kids for an emotional assault). At the time, I took that he meant it literally - trump strong!  Bomb bad guys!  Keep guns!  I rolled my eyes.  When it became a reality and the decisions starting rolling out, “safe” had a very different meaning for me - and for virtually everyone I know.  What the fuck did my dad mean by safe, when his own family (and the people they cared about) were under attack in one way or another?  It finally hit me when I went home for Xmas (the first time since the election).  We didn’t discuss politics (because my mama’s heart is (literally) fragile and she asked that we not), but all I had to do was really observe him.  HE is safe, and mom is safe (aside from the heart).  That was always obvious.  What I didn’t see was that he was unable to see beyond his own self.  Like a toddler - there was no recognition that other people were independent, sentient beings with their own thing going on.  He seemed to think there was a bubble of protection that he could stretch to include his loved ones.  If he was safe, we were safe.  But the only person that bubble can maybe extend to is my mom.  DH and i used to argue over whether my mom was a secret D (she was a hippie, after all), but she’s not.  She’s all in with dad because she convinvinced she’s in the bubble. My sister believes the bubble can protect her, too.  Or maybe she just wants the approval of the men in her life, I don’t know.

I’m rambling now but the point I wanted to make is that it’s just as condescending to say that 53% of white women voted against their interest as it is for my dad to assume his bubble encompasses me.  People DO vote according to their own interest, whatever fucked up interest that may be.

[rachelgreen]

I’ve been sitting with these articles for a day now and I’m still struggling with how to put into words what I want to say. I’m not the best at it in these discussions but I will try.

I feel like I finally have a little tiny grasp on why I’ve had this internal struggle and many time external struggle with different family members - but it differs greatly based on what side. My dad is 100% brown. My mom 100% White. They divorced when I was four and hate each other. And I see her gigantically in fragile ww form all.the.time. She and I have a very, very hot and cold relationship. I can’t stand her entitled way of thinking. She has thought in the past at her company that some of the WOC get to the higher positions of employment because of their skin color. Can’t possibly because they’re better workers than her. Nope. Has nothing to do with her insubordination or her lack of degree or her flakiness. And then you get my dad and his mom. I can see how my mom rubbed off on me in the crying dept. i do often literally cry when upset. I used to think it was my point of just giving up. But it isn’t and I didn’t see that. I didn’t get it. My dad never, ever wanted me to cry. I would get yelled at the moment I would start. My grandma always told me to just let things go, don’t make a scene (which is weird since that seemed to be a ww thing but she’s 100% brown), carry on like nothing happened. I suppose it was a way of self-protection she was teaching me.

Not really related but I’m generally late to race related threads and I don’t know where else to put this: lately I’ve been trying to speak Spanish to my oldest. She doesn’t want me to. She gets really upset and asks me to “please stop talking to her like that!” We live in a very, very white area. I’m a sahm so she doesn’t go to daycare and won’t be in 3k until next fall. I don’t know why it is bothering her. She has watched the movie Coco a million times and loves it. I tell her all the time about us being Hispanic. I don’t want her to feel ashamed and I don’t know where this is coming from.