I really appreciated the perspective of the first article. It's incredibly eye-opening to see a behavior I know very well as a white woman, and hear it from the WOC perspective and see the damage it does.
Obviously white women do this due to benevolent sexism, and it's the way they've learned to reclaim power in their world, which is generally predominantly white. So generally it's harmless, because they do it to white men, who hold all the power in their world. It's the equivalent of a flick/pluck on the arm.
The same behavior when used against a WOC is completely different, because 1) the power dynamic is different, and 2) white female "tears" bring white men over, who hold all the power, which makes it even more imbalanced, incredibly aggressively so. It overshoots the mark by a million miles, more like a punch in the face wearing brass knuckles than a flick on the arm. And frankly even if they realize that's what's happening, most white women don't care, because of racism. They don't have to so they don't. Or of course they're doing it intentionally because of racism.
For me as a white woman, it was really beneficial to hear about this dynamic from the other side, so I can try to be more aware that a seemingly "harmless" manipulation tactic is a loaded gun in certain contexts. It's not something I would have thought of, although now that I've read the article it seems very obvious. I'm not aware of emotionally manipulating others by appearing weak and needing care, but I'm sure I have and will again.
I'm curious. How do you perceive the power dynamic as being different between white women and WOC? I have never once felt this, or even thought that it was possible, in my interactions with white women, but everyone is different.
If anything I feel more powerful when interacting with a white woman than with other women, but I've often been described as arrogant, imperious, and unfriendly by this same group. Maybe I'm just an asshole, so I'm interested in your side here.
I'm curious. How do you perceive the power dynamic as being different between white women and WOC? I have never once felt this, or even thought that it was possible, in my interactions with white women, but everyone is different.
If anything I feel more powerful when interacting with a white woman than with other women, but I've often been described as arrogant, imperious, and unfriendly by this same group. Maybe I'm just an asshole, so I'm interested in your side here.
I was referring specifically to how in the examples cited in both articles that white women could influence situations so that others took her side against a WOC, so that the white woman got what she wanted (whether that was a tangible outcome, or sympathy, or to be exonerated as not being mean or being in the right). I was not referring to individual white women being more powerful when toe to toe with a WOC. I agree with your assessment there. I think white women have been socialized differently from WOC in a lot of ways which often make them less self-possessed and more emotionally weak, on the whole. I think this is a great example of how white women and WOC don't want or need the same things from the feminist movement, and why the feminist movement isn't inherently inclusive of or appealing to WOC, among other reasons.
Got it. Thanks for answering. I've just heard this line before, even on the boards, and I get the impression sometimes that these articles tend to embolden white women and make them aware of some new found power that they intend to abuse. I almost detect a giddiness, like "really? we have power over black women?" It doesn't help that the writers usually have some version of a story involving being the only black teen in a group of friends, or realizing they're black at some ripe old age. I never really relate to those stories either, which is why I'm generally of no use in these threads.
I'm curious. How do you perceive the power dynamic as being different between white women and WOC? I have never once felt this, or even thought that it was possible, in my interactions with white women, but everyone is different.
If anything I feel more powerful when interacting with a white woman than with other women, but I've often been described as arrogant, imperious, and unfriendly by this same group. Maybe I'm just an asshole, so I'm interested in your side here.
Right? I know I have/ feel/ witnessed more power when I encounter and interact with white women. That’s what makes my general IDGAF nature and approach “scary” and “intimidating”.
Poor poodles, cause I’m not changing. Their attempted power plays don’t work with me.
Lol. I think I actually am a dick though. I could do better in this regard, I'll admit. My true nature is actually warm and friendly.
I read these articles yesterday with great interest. Then I woke up this morning that the woman from MN who killed her husband in MN and another woman in FL was caught. However, the headlines are that "grandma" was caught; she's also white and blonde. She embezzled money from her husband's business and killed him, then targeted a woman who looked like her to kill her and steal her identity. Nowhere are there any descriptors of "cold-blooded" or anything else that she really was. Do we really need to pretend if this was a POC that the headlines would be different?
Got it. Thanks for answering. I've just heard this line before, even on the boards, and I get the impression sometimes that these articles tend to embolden white women and make them aware of some new found power that they intend to abuse. I almost detect a giddiness, like "really? we have power over black women?" It doesn't help that the writers usually have some version of a story involving being the only black teen in a group of friends, or realizing they're black at some ripe old age. I never really relate to those stories either, which is why I'm generally of no use in these threads.
I definitely didn't mean it that way. Thanks for asking me to clarify.
There was an article posted awhile back where the writer was totally pitiful and clearly needed some therapy around her history with white people. Everyone was all, "thank you for sharing, I'll keep in mind that just looking at a black woman during yoga could make her cry." Lol. As with anything, not every blog post or Twitter thread about race is worth discussing. Some people need to take their deep thoughts to a mental health professional or a diary.
There was an article posted awhile back where the writer was totally pitiful and clearly needed some therapy around her history with white people. Everyone was all, "thank you for sharing, I'll keep in mind that just looking at a black woman during yoga could make her cry." Lol. As with anything, not every blog post or Twitter thread about race is worth discussing. Some people need to take their deep thoughts to a mental health professional or a diary.
OMG, I remember that shit. I read it on my way to yoga, and was thinking, did this bitch really get all in her feelings when I white woman gave her a dirty look for stepping on her yoga mat? Why is this being published? Who are these stories for?
Yeah, I don't know. Everyone thinks they're James Baldwin these days.
Post by imobviouslystaying on Apr 20, 2018 15:38:07 GMT -5
I am so late to this post but I find the entire thread fascinating so imma post all this anyway.
1) 53% of white women voted for Trump exactly because of their white tears. They are more afraid of black kids in their schools, brown folks who they assume don't belong here, etc than they are of sexual assault and being paid less.
They don't even care if they get paid less. They are more concerned about their husbands working at the factory or not losing his job to a browner person.
Sexual assault happens to sluts more often than not. But white men are in danger every day from things out of their control like women who make up sexual assault stories, affirmative action and political correctness.
They are delusional and really do believe all that shit.
2) White women anger and all other emotion is part of white tears. White women cannot be upset or afraid ever. They are not just permitted their emotions but everyone must deal with the emotion and often instead of the real problem. As long as Karen's emotions are dealt with, fuck all else.
And it doesn't matter if those emotions are justified either.
Please see the son called "mama bears" and every suspicious brown man situation ever. Better safe than sorry, amiright?
We white women are self-loathing cowards who hide from real discomfort by fabricating discomfort, at the expense of ourselves and everyone around us. But at least we're deserving of that for not doing anything different; but POC and our own children deserve better. We like the fabricated stuff because we get to have a sense of control and we can tolerate it because it's not the real stuff and nothing really has to change; we have to let go of control and sit with the not knowing. Let go of who we think we are or how we appear and focus on living out our values, not just pretending to. We have to look inside ourselves at the ugly and confront it, not distract from it. If you're not uncomfortable when no one's watching, you aren't doing the work.
The fucked up thing is that we would all be better off if we really confronted this in both ourselves and others.
Post by sugarglider on Apr 21, 2018 6:04:52 GMT -5
We’ve explored a lot of these issues here before, but I think the chilling effect that white tears have on going to HR—often a step necessary to protect one’s legal rights—is a big systemic problem that deserves attention.
I advise on workplace investigations and am in the process of writing a series of pieces on the topic based on recurring themes I’ve seen. Recognizing the undeserved credibility of white tears is an important component that I will be sure to include.
The Luvvie blog post was shared in a professional group I'm part of on FB and I got to see all the defensive white tears there. It was very eye-opening to see the defensiveness and inability to find the point of the article and the conversation as well as to watch one white woman in particular attempt to derail everything and demand that a comment made be explained and accounted for, over-personalized it, and then tried to make herself into the victim of biased treatment. She kept demanding that the comments that bothered her be explained/accounted for and wondering why she was getting so much feedback from everyone to work on herself and her own biases. It was textbook. I'm glad people in my profession are talking about it, many have a REALLY long way to go to even approach cultural awareness or sensitivity.