Saying “not surprised” and little else is text book dismissive.
This story in conjunction with the “white parents perpetuate school segregation” is just a two day doublewhammy of an indictment on the modern educational system. It’s beyond feelings of “not surprised.”
It is a given our system is tailored to benefit white and/or wealthy at the expense of many POC and/or poor, thus how “not surprised” you are feeling offers nothing. And it almost sounds as if it’s so not surprising you can’t muster anything else? Tell me more.
But I'm not surprised. I have a BIL who works at Ivy leagues and has stories that I find unethical, albeit maybe not illegal. I went to a wannabe ivy league and there was shady stuff going on there with "legacy" students who were dumb as rocks, but who had rich donor parents. We already knew that rich people hire SAT and college coaches/prep, they rewrite (or write) college essays, they donate to schools that their kids want to get into. They call friends in admissions or at those schools. Saying I'm not surprised, does not mean I'm not outraged.
I was surprised at 19 when I found out that a friend had the lowest SAT score I ever heard and yet was in the same school as I was in the same biomedical engineering, but there was a dorm named after his grandparent. How about the guy who took me out on a date and was a music major, but said, "I don't have any musical talent - it was just that my whole family has always been at this university and it was the only place they could find me a legacy position. I just have to take music classes for one year and that I can change degrees."
I posted the first article about white parents yesterday b/c I am outraged. I'm mad at friends and family who make decisions that are the "best for their kids" without thinking. I moved my kid out of a pay-to-play-style charter school that was good for my kid b/c I realized the issue. I challenge those I know to think differently about education - public and private, even challenging my close friend who basically markets for a charter school to get her to think outside the box on the "best" kids to market to. I'm glad the FBI caught this, but I also wonder what will come of this. Especially since so many of these are not public universities, so accountability is tough. What we F*&king need is Betsy DeVos to be gone so someone who has the intelligence and focus can actually look at higher education and equality in K-12 education from an objective and empathetic POV.
You are obviously sharing a lot, not simply “not surprised, thank you next.” So I think it’s clear you aren’t in the category of person I’m referring to.
I went to Washington University and there were definitely some kids there who were not prepared. Like, couldn't even write complete sentences half the time. For that I blame prep schools that hand out As to the kids with influential or just plain bothersome parents. To me that's a far bigger problem, that plus the SAT gaming and "admissions coaches" and all the other things wealthier kids' parents do to give their kid a leg up.
I've worked in fundraising at three top-25 universities, and maybe I just wasn't privy to everything, but I don't think too many kids who are straight-up not qualified get in because of their family money. Maybe 5-10 out of a class of 5,000. These were kids whose parents were extraordinarily wealthy, like $100M-plus net worth.
Then there is was a list developed of 100-200 kids that fundraisers wanted admissions to "take and extra look at" in case they were on the bubble. Yes, it's completely unfair that wealthy kid got a spot when another kid who didn't have advantages didn't. But at least all these kids had qualifying grades and scores, just not the very best grades and scores.
Trump and George Bush are from an era when Ivy Leagues were way less competitive. There were few people of color applying or getting in, and for a long time Jewish people were heavily discriminated against too. And of course there were no women at all in Ivy League colleges in that era. My impression is it was a lot easier to get in for all white males, and pretty much automatic for a kid from a "good" family. Everything about college admissions now is way more fair -- and way more crazy competitive -- than it was then.
IDK I'm not trying to defend any of it. Just to say the overwhelming unfairness, in my mind, is the advantages the upper middle class kids have in preparation for college, which is why most elite colleges have a large percentage of UMC kids attending. That kind of systemic problem should be addressed but it permeates every level of society, not just college admissions.
I am horrified (and have secondhand embarrassment for these people) and I work in college admissions and school counseling. I proctor the ACT and SAT often. I manage 504 plans which are the tools in which to get extended time on the big college entrance tests. I'm very familiar with this process and it blows my mind that there was such a blatant and systemic scam going on.
Also, it makes me INCREDIBLY sad for the kids. On so many levels. They were taught that they are above it all at the same time they were taught they weren't enough.
I'm not surprised that some people would go to these lengths, but i'm pleasantly surprised at the enforcement and publicity around the enforcement!
It does make you wonder though... Why would they bother when making big donations is a perfectly legal way to do it, and as someone said upthread, the socially acceptable method? I mean, one of my college friends was a girl who flunked out of UT so her dad made a very large donation to our university so she could get in.
As a full-ride scholarship kid, I was grateful for the flunkies like her - her failures helped financially support my successes. :-) And the poor class performance of the rich kids helped elevate my rank to magna cum laude. =D
I am secretly hoping that Trump somehow ends up discovered as a guilty party in this scenario, particularly for Donald Trump Jr.
Maybe the consequence won’t be the firm hand of justice resting atop Lori Laughlin’s head. Maybe the consequence will be a slow degrading of a degree from one of these fine upstanding institutions.
Imagine your parents had so little faith in your abilities they’d pay half a million dollars to get you and your sibling into your preferred school. Assuming these kids weren’t in on it, that’s gotta sting.
This is where I am. With all that money. Where were they the other 12 years of their education? Did they keep up with their grades/educational needs? Did they get tutors? Were they paying any attention to PSAT scores?
And if they did and they felt their child wasn't able to do it on their own, why push them down that path?
Or perhaps they could educate themselves on the WIDE FUCKING ARRAY of colleges in the country. I absolutely get the appeal of an elite school. But you can get a good education, like, all over--even at a school that takes people with **gasp and horror** SATs below 1400. Maybe live less vicariously through your kids and don't commit crimes and lie to them so they get into a school that makes you feel better at a cocktail party for superficial reasons.
I cannot imagine spending $1.2M on a bribe to college. I mean...if you have money and influence can’t you get Li’l Bit a cushy job after the education part? Surely they must know on some level the Ivy is not a necessary resumé bullet for most of these kids’ aspirations/talents.
I am surprised. I shouldn't be because I know there are weird people doing weird things out there. It's just that posing for water polo type thing would never really occur to me. I also assume that as soon as I commit a crime that I will be immediately caught. Those people out there have such big egos they think they will never get caught, and despite watching shows on it, I still never comprehend why they think they will get away with it.
I think I am more surprised that these actors want their kids to get educations. I suppose that is so that they can go make their own money and not live off of trust funds? That seems legit. Doing all this shady business to ensure that happens is not legit.
They definitely don't want their kids to get educations. They want the piece of paper and status of being an alum of [Insert fancy private school here].
Post by rupertpenny on Mar 12, 2019 16:43:22 GMT -5
Maybe this is a dumb question, but did the kids who posed as athletes actually have to show up for team practice? Or were they just flagged as athletes for admissions purposes?
If it’s the former I can’t imagine being a legitimate member of the team and having some rich fucker who can barely tread water show up for water polo practice.
Maybe this is a dumb question, but did the kids who posed as athletes actually have to show up for team practice? Or were they just flagged as athletes for admissions purposes?
If it’s the former I can’t imagine being a legitimate member of the team and having some rich fucker who can barely tread water show up for water polo practice.
From what I gather, no. Most of the sports weren’t in-season fall semester, so like 3 weeks into the school year they’d “quit” the team but stay in school. Not sure what happened with fall sports (like soccer). Also not sure if they took a team spot away from qualified athletes, but I’m getting the impression that they didn’t (they weren’t given scholarships, and I think coaches have a fair amount of discretion in how many athletes they bring into the team knowing that several might quit the team for various reasons).
Post by Jalapeñomel on Mar 12, 2019 16:55:19 GMT -5
I’ve seen cheating at all levels, from parents to admin, to college admissions. Colleges have been covering up all kinds of scandals (not just cheating as we’ve seen in the past couple of years) and it’s especially easily to do when you have money. So no, I’m not surprised, only surprised they were caught.
People have been fighting admissions to NY specialized high schools, where, there is no doubt amongst educators, that people are less than honest when kids are applying. This is one of the reasons why there is a push to open it up to ask for more than just a test to allow students in.
Maybe this is a dumb question, but did the kids who posed as athletes actually have to show up for team practice? Or were they just flagged as athletes for admissions purposes?
If it’s the former I can’t imagine being a legitimate member of the team and having some rich fucker who can barely tread water show up for water polo practice.
From what I gather, no. Most of the sports weren’t in-season fall semester, so like 3 weeks into the school year they’d “quit” the team but stay in school. Not sure what happened with fall sports (like soccer). Also not sure if they took a team spot away from qualified athletes, but I’m getting the impression that they didn’t (they weren’t given scholarships, and I think coaches have a fair amount of discretion in how many athletes they bring into the team knowing that several might quit the team for various reasons).
I played a fall sport at Yale (not soccer). There were kids on my team who did this - were recruited, came to preseason, then quit within the first season. I assume most of them figured out that D1 college sports were more demanding than they were expecting, but I supposed it's possible that they just used sports for admissions purposes.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
I didn't think USC was that hard to get into - some of these kids must have really low scores/grades. One of the articles I read said they staged photos of the kids playing the sports - lol.
I wonder which high schools these kids went to. I've heard some crazy stories about the kids at the prep schools in LA - this is probably just the tip of the iceberg.
My husband would be so offended. He did his PhD there - and that's after going to an Ivy for undergrad!
And speaking of going to Ivy for undergrad, he used to do alumni interviews in Los Angeles for his school. No matter how outstanding the kids from Compton or Crenshaw high schools were (and some were really, really impressive) he knew they would always lose out to the kids from Harvard-Westlake. Always.
If Lori Loughlin features prominently in this story, aren't we using a pretty loose definition of the word "celebrity"?
I mean, she’s not an A-lister like JLo or Sandra Bullock or Beyoncé, but she’s pretty widely recognized and has a fairly large body of (sit-com and hallmark channel) work.
ETA: I’m actually pretty interested to know who the CEOs were that were involved. Has anyone seen a full list of those who were indicted?
If Lori Loughlin features prominently in this story, aren't we using a pretty loose definition of the word "celebrity"?
I mean, she’s not an A-lister like JLo or Sandra Bullock or Beyoncé, but she’s pretty widely recognized and has a fairly large body of (sit-com and hallmark channel) work.
ETA: I’m actually pretty interested to know who the CEOs were that were involved. Has anyone seen a full list of those who were indicted?
Maybe this is a dumb question, but did the kids who posed as athletes actually have to show up for team practice? Or were they just flagged as athletes for admissions purposes?
If it’s the former I can’t imagine being a legitimate member of the team and having some rich fucker who can barely tread water show up for water polo practice.
From what I gather, no. Most of the sports weren’t in-season fall semester, so like 3 weeks into the school year they’d “quit” the team but stay in school. Not sure what happened with fall sports (like soccer). Also not sure if they took a team spot away from qualified athletes, but I’m getting the impression that they didn’t (they weren’t given scholarships, and I think coaches have a fair amount of discretion in how many athletes they bring into the team knowing that several might quit the team for various reasons).
Although the Ivy League doesn’t give out athletic scholarships, anecdotal evidence shows that many student athletes likely get a slightly better “merit” scholarship package than they otherwise may have. You can argue coaches are trying to fund whatever money they can because the student is a desirable addition and they want to make it happen, but that’s also a case of taking money away from other students, deserved or not.
Now, if you parents can afford bribes to get you in, that’s not a situation that’s applicable. It’s more about how we prioritize college athletics.
I've worked in fundraising at three top-25 universities, and maybe I just wasn't privy to everything, but I don't think too many kids who are straight-up not qualified get in because of their family money. Maybe 5-10 out of a class of 5,000. These were kids whose parents were extraordinarily wealthy, like $100M-plus net worth.
Then there is was a list developed of 100-200 kids that fundraisers wanted admissions to "take and extra look at" in case they were on the bubble. Yes, it's completely unfair that wealthy kid got a spot when another kid who didn't have advantages didn't. But at least all these kids had qualifying grades and scores, just not the very best grades and scores.
Thank you for pointing this out. I have been in higher ed fundraising (and have worked as a fundraiser at UCLA, USC and Stanford which are all named in this) and there were very strict policies about fundraisers talking with admissions during admit season. And we were always told if they don't have the grades, they aren't getting in regardless of money. Maybe that's why some of these families resorted to bribes - at most schools, you really can't "buy" your way in through a large gift anymore?