Your last paragraph is what I keep thinking about. Using my own situation as a personal anecdote, it's insane to me the level of this kind of thing that I still, as a grown adult, would never have really thought about. I was a good student, but my parents were low to low-middle income and absolutely not savvy (nor helpful in any way) about navigating the college admissions process with me. I did all of my prep, testing, applications and interviews myself. As a naive teenager. I guess I had some idea about things like legacy admits, and athletes getting scholarships who probably couldn't actually hack it academically, but I definitely would have put those instances as rare occurrences and not ones that were really impacting regular students like me. Now, I'm not so sure.
I'm also a bit taken aback at exactly how undeserving these students were. The one BigLaw guy profiled in the Above the Law article posted talked about cheating but not making it look so obvious, so he was looking for an ACT score of maybe 31 or 32. This guy, as a parent, couldn't find a way that wasn't cheating, to get his kid to actually get a 31 or 32? With all of the resources they have at their disposal, how far below typical acceptance levels was this damn kid? Just, ugh.
For kids who went to academically strong schools, who actually participated and paid attention, with a good work ethic and maybe poor test-taking ability, a good tutor could probably get them to a strong SAT/ACT score, assuming the kid wanted to and was willing to put in the work.
I don’t get the feeling that most of those conditions apply to these kids. Sure, they attended good schools, but most probably didn’t work very hard, weren’t motivated to work hard, or were used to having everything handed to them (or in the case of some of these kids, actually had other people take their online HS classes for them). In that case, cheating was probably the only way to get the required score.
This exactly. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they cheated the whole way up, donation for pre-school, someone else taking their tests in HS. Private HS admissions.
I agree if they are claiming this as a non-profit it could be tax fraud. Although it is probably up to the org to file the non-profit paperwork and then where their money goes depends on if it's really a non-profit or not= fraud.
My H volunteered at an organization for underprivileged kids helping them through the process to get into college. We need a million more of those organizations and helpers instead of these people. It is called Chess in the Schools in NYC if anyone is interested.
Post by runforrest on Mar 13, 2019 13:39:08 GMT -5
It's been a long time since law school, but RICO is a federal statute, and don't most of these crimes usually have mandatory minimums? I didn't think you could really plead out on a RICO charge; it's a federal crime and conspiracy is no joke.
I agree completely with this op ed saying the problem at the heart is with college sports and the role it plays in admissions. Yes, what they did was criminal. And that is why they were indicted.
But it's also troubling that colleges give so much weight to athletics in admissions. They didn't buy their way through the admissions office or a professor recommendation. They bought their way in through the athletics department. And frankly, wealthy families know that sports are the real backdoor to colleges. They pay and prep their kids for skiing/sailing/fencing/whatever so that they can have an admissions edge without making the grade on academics.
Some of what you and this article are saying is (kind of) true.
Except like in the case of Lori Loughlins kid...SHE DIDNT ACTUALLY ROW. EVAR.
Your statement that rich people are prepping their kids in sports for an admissions edge? No!
That's not the issue. It's that these kids never even were on the sports! There is a picture out there of one of the kids photoshopped into the water polo team!
Its shameful that schools are favoring lower performing kids who are athletes. But the actual issue at hand is roster tampering and bribery.
Sounds like they essentially had one or more people (proctors?) taking the tests in the kids' place, or swapping their answers out. In some (or all?) situations they also had to bribe the test admins to look the other way.
I agree completely with this op ed saying the problem at the heart is with college sports and the role it plays in admissions. Yes, what they did was criminal. And that is why they were indicted.
But it's also troubling that colleges give so much weight to athletics in admissions. They didn't buy their way through the admissions office or a professor recommendation. They bought their way in through the athletics department. And frankly, wealthy families know that sports are the real backdoor to colleges. They pay and prep their kids for skiing/sailing/fencing/whatever so that they can have an admissions edge without making the grade on academics.
Some of what you and this article are saying is (kind of) true.
Except like in the case of Lori Loughlins kid...SHE DIDNT ACTUALLY ROW. EVAR.
Your statement that rich people are prepping their kids in sports for an admissions edge? No!
That's not the issue. It's that these kids never even were on the sports! There is a picture out there of one of the kids photoshopped into the water polo team!
Its shameful that schools are favoring lower performing kids who are athletes. But the actual issue at hand is roster tampering and bribery.
Truth be told, I rowed in college and the 1st time I picked up an oar was when I was in college. Then again, I wasn’t at my school on a rowing scholarship.
I agree completely with this op ed saying the problem at the heart is with college sports and the role it plays in admissions. Yes, what they did was criminal. And that is why they were indicted.
But it's also troubling that colleges give so much weight to athletics in admissions. They didn't buy their way through the admissions office or a professor recommendation. They bought their way in through the athletics department. And frankly, wealthy families know that sports are the real backdoor to colleges. They pay and prep their kids for skiing/sailing/fencing/whatever so that they can have an admissions edge without making the grade on academics.
Some of what you and this article are saying is (kind of) true.
Except like in the case of Lori Loughlins kid...SHE DIDNT ACTUALLY ROW. EVAR.
Your statement that rich people are prepping their kids in sports for an admissions edge? No!
That's not the issue. It's that these kids never even were on the sports! There is a picture out there of one of the kids photoshopped into the water polo team!
Its shameful that schools are favoring lower performing kids who are athletes. But the actual issue at hand is roster tampering and bribery.
Of course the actual bribery scandal is a bribery scandal. But only a handful of kids got into college on illegal bribery. It's awful but pretty limited in scope.
The illegal scheme succeeded because of a not scandalous but still insidious and pervasive problem with college admissions that over emphasizes athletics over academics. It is as much affirmative action for the wealthy as legacy admissions are. Thousands of kids who aren't academically qualified get into colleges every year because a coach somewhere flagged their application. No one has done anything wrong, but it still compromises the academic integrity of these institutions.
Some of what you and this article are saying is (kind of) true.
Except like in the case of Lori Loughlins kid...SHE DIDNT ACTUALLY ROW. EVAR.
Your statement that rich people are prepping their kids in sports for an admissions edge? No!
That's not the issue. It's that these kids never even were on the sports! There is a picture out there of one of the kids photoshopped into the water polo team!
Its shameful that schools are favoring lower performing kids who are athletes. But the actual issue at hand is roster tampering and bribery.
Truth be told, I rowed in college and the 1st time I picked up an oar was when I was in college. Then again, I wasn’t at my school on a rowing scholarship.
I dont know what to say except, you were on the team and on the roster. Again, these kids were never ever intended to be athletes. The article is trying to point out that ACTUAL ATHLETES are given academic slots they may not deserve.
In this case they were frauds and there was bribery to the coaches!
This isnt the same thing, which isnt to say the issue presented in the opinion piece isnt a problem, not did it create a scenario that creates the situation for exploitation.
The reality of admissions is that there are say...50 slots available, and a certain number are allotted to athletics, some performing arts, some honor college, and then some legacy students etc..and by the time you get to "open admissions" that number can be super competitive.
Post by notsopicky on Mar 13, 2019 14:36:12 GMT -5
I have a question, a comment, and an article to share.
Question: What are honest services?
Comment: I taught in a super wealthy area at a public school in the DC metro area for 14 years. It was a major feeder to the highly sought-after tech school in the district. The amount of privilege and entitlement was out of control there--it was the sole reason I left. The parents were ridiculous--and admin backed them every time they flexed their ridiculousness. I think that these parents just want to SAY that their kids got into and/or go to this school, not that they actually want their kid(s) to get the actual education from this place. I see this type of attitude too in the "gifted and talented" (we call it something else, but G&T is the general idea) programs at elementary schools--these parents think that kids that don't get in are abysmal failures in life (barf). This whole thing--both on my local level, and this fraud scandal on a national level--are dark marks on our education system. Until we start integrating SES into schools, this shit is going to continue.
She makes a good point about entitlement in this article--white wealthy parents who say that a "less qualified kid" (poor, of color, both--her words, not mine) would get a space at a school over their own kid, the parents are saying that the space ALREADY BELONGS to the white wealthy kid, which is 197365 kinds of stupid.
the irs is interested too bc the agency had a phony nonprofit and these people had the audacity to deduct the payments as charitable donations.
Would that also be tax fraud then too?
yup pretty sure. (My dh is the tax expert though). Eta civil tax fraud up to 75% of false deduction plus interest Criminal fraud penalty up to $250k and up to 5 yrs in prison.
It sounds like some were swapped with a completed test. Maybe swapped with someone else who sat the exam at the same sitting who was super-smart? I mean, they weren’t (obviously) getting perfect scores.
This kind of reminds me of that girl from Florida (I think?) whose second SAT was invalidated because they say her score improved too much between first and second attempts. She is black. At least a few of these rich kids took the test more than once, but the disparity in scores didn’t ring any alarm bells???
I read most of the complaint earlier and in one of the phone conversations the lead scammer in charge talked about not increasing the score more than 30% so that there weren't any red flags.
Apparently Felicity Huffman's and William H. Macy's oldest daughter raised her score 400 points from 1020 (when she took it herself) to 1420 (as part of the cheating scam). Apparently if you're named Kamilah that raises red flags, but not if you're named Sofia Grace.
I read most of the complaint earlier and in one of the phone conversations the lead scammer in charge talked about not increasing the score more than 30% so that there weren't any red flags.
Apparently Felicity Huffman's and William H. Macy's oldest daughter raised her score 400 points from 1020 (when she took it herself) to 1420 (as part of the cheating scam). Apparently if you're named Kamilah that raises red flags, but not if you're named Sofia Grace.
I 100% agree. I think there were a lot of things that should have raised red flags here including the increased score and I hope that these parents (and the kids) are punished appropriately.
But it's also troubling that colleges give so much weight to athletics in admissions. They didn't buy their way through the admissions office or a professor recommendation. They bought their way in through the athletics department. And frankly, wealthy families know that sports are the real backdoor to colleges. They pay and prep their kids for skiing/sailing/fencing/whatever so that they can have an admissions edge without making the grade on academics.
I disagree with this. I said this upthread, but I played a collegiate sport at an Ivy. Do I think my sport helped my application? Yes. 100%. But to insinuate that I didn't "belong" at the school is insulting. Being an athlete was part of what I brought to the university. The hours I spent playing my sport allowed me to bring a different perspective to campus than someone who didn't play a sport. My grades and SAT scores were up there with the average for the incoming class. Was I at the top? Nope, but neither were my non-athlete roommates. They, too, had something that made them a piece of the puzzle for the class.
While there is some truth to the idea that coaches can dictate their recruits to admissions, it's not a carte blanche. Athletes have to be qualified for admissions. We, as a group, did well there academically.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
But it's also troubling that colleges give so much weight to athletics in admissions. They didn't buy their way through the admissions office or a professor recommendation. They bought their way in through the athletics department. And frankly, wealthy families know that sports are the real backdoor to colleges. They pay and prep their kids for skiing/sailing/fencing/whatever so that they can have an admissions edge without making the grade on academics.
I disagree with this. I said this upthread, but I played a collegiate sport at an Ivy. Do I think my sport helped my application? Yes. 100%. But to insinuate that I didn't "belong" at the school is insulting. Being an athlete was part of what I brought to the university. The hours I spent playing my sport allowed me to bring a different perspective to campus than someone who didn't play a sport. My grades and SAT scores were up there with the average for the incoming class. Was I at the top? Nope, but neither were my non-athlete roommates. They, too, had something that made them a piece of the puzzle for the class.
While there is some truth to the idea that coaches can dictate their recruits to admissions, it's not a carte blanche. Athletes have to be qualified for admissions. We, as a group, did well there academically.
Agree (and I was never an athlete).
I think the colleges knew what was going on and throwing in the athlete card was the easiest and least obvious for them.
I need someone to find out if she was on a yacht or if she was yachting. The article said she was on spring break with girlfriends, but didn't mention anything else.
share.memebox.com/x/uKhKaZmemebox referal code for 20% off! DD1 "J" born 3/2003 DD2 "G" born 4/2011 DS is here! "H" born 2/2014 m/c#3 1-13-13 @ 9 weeks m/c#2 11-11-12 @ 5w2d I am an extended breastfeeding, cloth diapering, baby wearing, pro marriage equality, birth control lovin', Catholic mama.
I need someone to find out if she was on a yacht or if she was yachting. The article said she was on spring break with girlfriends, but didn't mention anything else.
Post by thelurkylulu on Mar 14, 2019 13:00:58 GMT -5
I think it’s important to note that most collegiate athletes are not receiving fully paid athletic scholarships. Receiving a full ride is very rare. Division II typically offers partial to a select few and Division III offers no monetary athletic scholarships.
Do I believe playing sports can help get you into college? Sure. But let’s not act like these universities and the NCAA aren’t making insane amounts of money off of these kids. And most of these kids don’t have Hollywood parents who can pay off their debt once they graduate. The entire system of post secondary education is severely broken in this country.
Maybe the consequence won’t be the firm hand of justice resting atop Lori Laughlin’s head. Maybe the consequence will be a slow degrading of a degree from one of these fine upstanding institutions.
I think it’s important to note that most collegiate athletes are not receiving fully paid athletic scholarships. Receiving a full ride is very rare. Division II typically offers partial to a select few and Division III offers no monetary athletic scholarships.
Do I believe playing sports can help get you into college? Sure. But let’s not act like these universities and the NCAA aren’t making insane amounts of money off of these kids. And most of these kids don’t have Hollywood parents who can pay off their debt once they graduate. The entire system of post secondary education is severely broken in this country.
This would be me. I got recruited to play a Div 1 field hockey team but with absolutely no scholarship. Did it help me get in? Yes, just like the top violinist in the orchestra or the guy who was president of his class four times in a row also got a leg up. I had very good grades, great SATs, did a lot of other stuff to get in as well. (I was a scholarship kid at a private school which gave me a leg up too and I count that as a big privilege).
I had to take out loans (which took forever to pay off) and work 20 hours a week in the cafeteria during school to pay for books and other expenses while training all year long six days a week for hours. I worked 40 hours a week in manual labour most summers.
I like these real consequences of losing jobs/sponsorship.
Right? It makes it feel like somewhere deep down inside, our country still has something that resembles a conscience.
I think that’s debatable. If we had a conscience, people wouldn’t be doing stuff like this in the first place. But we’re really good at being outraged about stuff.
I’m also glad to see the daughter being impacted. Despite what the kids knew or not, they’ve lived an entitled life and i feel that the only way they will really “get” how wrong this was if they suffer consequences too.
But it's also troubling that colleges give so much weight to athletics in admissions. They didn't buy their way through the admissions office or a professor recommendation. They bought their way in through the athletics department. And frankly, wealthy families know that sports are the real backdoor to colleges. They pay and prep their kids for skiing/sailing/fencing/whatever so that they can have an admissions edge without making the grade on academics.
I disagree with this. I said this upthread, but I played a collegiate sport at an Ivy. Do I think my sport helped my application? Yes. 100%. But to insinuate that I didn't "belong" at the school is insulting. Being an athlete was part of what I brought to the university. The hours I spent playing my sport allowed me to bring a different perspective to campus than someone who didn't play a sport. My grades and SAT scores were up there with the average for the incoming class. Was I at the top? Nope, but neither were my non-athlete roommates. They, too, had something that made them a piece of the puzzle for the class.
While there is some truth to the idea that coaches can dictate their recruits to admissions, it's not a carte blanche. Athletes have to be qualified for admissions. We, as a group, did well there academically.
Did you read the article?
I'm not saying every college athlete is a recruited athlete who gets special treatment. I'm saying recruited athletes get vast advantages over students with other talents.
Being a great lacrosse player shouldn't be vastly different for college admissions than being an excellent concert violinist or a ballerina who performs professionally.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
Today’s article had Olivia Jade shocked and appalled her parents cheated to get her into college as they are good, honest people. Really?
Supposedly both are withdrawing from USC to avoid bullying.
This makes me think of the movie Ever After, where the Margurite is shocked at the stepmother (Angelica Houston character) when the Queen accused her of lying.