Russia/Ukraine

[Velar Fricative]

Mar 1, 2022 14:43:21 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

This was a long but informative read. 

www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

Hill spent many years studying history, and in our conversation, she repeatedly traced how long arcs and trends of European history are converging on Ukraine right now. We are already, she said, in the middle of a third World War, whether we’ve fully grasped it or not.

“Sadly, we are treading back through old historical patterns that we said that we would never permit to happen again,” Hill told me.

Those old historical patterns include Western businesses who fail to see how they help build a tyrant’s war chest, admirers enamored of an autocrat’s “strength” and politicians’ tendency to point fingers inward for political gain instead of working together for their nation’s security.

But at the same time, Hill says it’s not too late to turn Putin back, and it’s a job not just for the Ukrainians or for NATO — it’s a job that ordinary Westerners and companies can assist in important ways once they grasp what’s at stake.

“Ukraine has become the front line in a struggle, not just between democracies and autocracies but in a struggle for maintaining a rules-based system in which the things that countries want are not taken by force,” Hill said. “Every country in the world should be paying close attention to this.”

There’s lots of danger ahead, she warned. Putin is increasingly operating emotionally and likely to use all the weapons at his disposal, including nuclear ones. It’s important not to have any illusions — but equally important not to lose hope.
“Every time you think, ’No, he wouldn’t, would he?’ Well, yes, he would,” Hill said. “And he wants us to know that, of course. It’s not that we should be intimidated and scared…. We have to prepare for those contingencies and figure out what is it that we’re going to do to head them off.”

This is...a read. I can't even come up with adjective. Fiona Hill is smart as shit so I believe every word she says here, which is scary as fuck.

And fuck the GOP for good measure.

[karinothing]

If Putin uses nuclear weapons we would act right? Like we can't let that stand. We were supposed to have a line in the sand for chemical weapons and we slide that slide. But nuclear? I feel like we can't just let that go.

Not that the outcome is positive if we (or the world) act but I just can't see us not acting.

[icedcoffee]

I don't know very much about nuclear weapons, but I also feel like if I read up about them I may never sleep again.

[carmenere]

Mar 1, 2022 15:45:29 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

I don't know very much about nuclear weapons, but I also feel like if I read up about them I may never sleep again.

Yes, can confirm that's correct.

ETA - And to spare you from reading about it: basically follow tornado protocol. If there's warning of an incoming attack get into a building, into the most interior part away from windows, don't come out until told to do so. If no warning, get face down on the ground, and take a shower asap.

[Velar Fricative]

Also, I remember the poisonings on British soil and it definitely impacted relations with Russia, but...I don't think it's had much of an impact lately before the invasion?

And wtf at putting poison in Navalny's underpants. Putin is fucked up.

[cous0226]

Ben Sasse has found a way to blame Biden. He’s on CNN right now blaming Biden that he’s not giving the Ukrainians real time info on the oncoming envoy. He is probably use to Trump going on TV and drawing maps with sharpies of where things are at.

[Velar Fricative]

Mar 1, 2022 16:16:43 GMT -5 cous0226 said:

Ben Sasse has found a way to blame Biden. He’s on CNN right now blaming Biden that he’s not giving the Ukrainians real time info on the oncoming envoy. He is probably use to Trump going on TV and drawing maps with sharpies of where things are at.

WTF is with this guy. Every once in a while he comes out and says something reasonable and then he's like "just kidding, I'm an asshole like the rest of my party!!!!"

[cous0226]

Mar 1, 2022 16:21:32 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Mar 1, 2022 16:16:43 GMT -5 cous0226 said:

Ben Sasse has found a way to blame Biden. He’s on CNN right now blaming Biden that he’s not giving the Ukrainians real time info on the oncoming envoy. He is probably use to Trump going on TV and drawing maps with sharpies of where things are at.

WTF is with this guy. Every once in a while he comes out and says something reasonable and then he's like "just kidding, I'm an asshole like the rest of my party!!!!"

He is setting up to blame Biden again that all of this could have been prevented had Biden done his job and not been so slow about it. They have to find something since the R’s can’t say the sanctions aren’t enough.

[rupertpenny]

Mar 1, 2022 16:16:43 GMT -5 cous0226 said:

Ben Sasse has found a way to blame Biden. He’s on CNN right now blaming Biden that he’s not giving the Ukrainians real time info on the oncoming envoy. He is probably use to Trump going on TV and drawing maps with sharpies of where things are at.

I just looked it up and he is on the Select Committee on Intelligence, but I highly doubt he has up to the minute information about what is happening and how quickly it is communicated. This is so irresponsible.

[pugz]

I keep checking the news obsessively but it doesn't seem like anything is really changing that quickly.

I just feel so much dread.

[neverfstop]

Mar 1, 2022 16:43:04 GMT -5 pugz said:

I keep checking the news obsessively but it doesn't seem like anything is really changing that quickly.

I just feel so much dread.

the guardian has a live blog - apple & ford stop production and sales in Russia

www.theguardian.com/world/live/2022/mar/01/ukraine-russia-latest-news-live-updates-war-vladimir-putin-kyiv-kharkiv-russian-invasion-update 

[fryjack2]

Mar 1, 2022 14:43:21 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

This was a long but informative read. 

www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

Hill spent many years studying history, and in our conversation, she repeatedly traced how long arcs and trends of European history are converging on Ukraine right now. We are already, she said, in the middle of a third World War, whether we’ve fully grasped it or not.

“Sadly, we are treading back through old historical patterns that we said that we would never permit to happen again,” Hill told me.

Those old historical patterns include Western businesses who fail to see how they help build a tyrant’s war chest, admirers enamored of an autocrat’s “strength” and politicians’ tendency to point fingers inward for political gain instead of working together for their nation’s security.

But at the same time, Hill says it’s not too late to turn Putin back, and it’s a job not just for the Ukrainians or for NATO — it’s a job that ordinary Westerners and companies can assist in important ways once they grasp what’s at stake.

“Ukraine has become the front line in a struggle, not just between democracies and autocracies but in a struggle for maintaining a rules-based system in which the things that countries want are not taken by force,” Hill said. “Every country in the world should be paying close attention to this.”

There’s lots of danger ahead, she warned. Putin is increasingly operating emotionally and likely to use all the weapons at his disposal, including nuclear ones. It’s important not to have any illusions — but equally important not to lose hope.
“Every time you think, ’No, he wouldn’t, would he?’ Well, yes, he would,” Hill said. “And he wants us to know that, of course. It’s not that we should be intimidated and scared…. We have to prepare for those contingencies and figure out what is it that we’re going to do to head them off.”

I can’t bold on my phone but again, “…….every county in the world should be paying close attention to this.” is so dismissive of every struggle going on in non majority white countries and perpetuates that belief that white freedom is more important than anyone else’s.

Not negating other points in her piece, just another example of the varying levels of attention to different conflicts.

[Saudade]

Mar 1, 2022 17:03:05 GMT -5 fryjack2 said:

Mar 1, 2022 14:43:21 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

This was a long but informative read. 

www.politico.com/news/magazine/2022/02/28/world-war-iii-already-there-00012340

I can’t bold on my phone but again, “…….every county in the world should be paying close attention to this.” is so dismissive of every struggle going on in non majority white countries and perpetuates that belief that white freedom is more important than anyone else’s.

Not negating other points in her piece, just another example of the varying levels of attention to different conflicts.

100%. Yes Ukraine is important and yes, what Putin is doing is wrong. But it makes me so mad. The world has turned its back on Palestine, Syria, Haiti, Rohingya, much of Africa, etc.

[Bad Dingo]

Saudade and fryjack2, I 100% agree that not enough support is shown to other victims of war/invaded territories. But also, none of those countries have nuclear weapons.

[pizzaandtulips]

Mar 1, 2022 15:56:43 GMT -5 carmenere said:

Mar 1, 2022 15:45:29 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

I don't know very much about nuclear weapons, but I also feel like if I read up about them I may never sleep again.

Yes, can confirm that's correct.

ETA - And to spare you from reading about it: basically follow tornado protocol. If there's warning of an incoming attack get into a building, into the most interior part away from windows, don't come out until told to do so. If no warning, get face down on the ground, and take a shower asap.

And for an extra twist, the government website with these precautions was updated last week to include Covid protections while hiding from nuclear war. 😭

[marie]

I just read that bombs hit a holocaust museum. I am crying thinking about important memories and facts that may be lost that were stored there. I hope it didn't actually happen, but this is really hard to hear.

[rebneen]

Mar 1, 2022 18:47:55 GMT -5 marie said:

I just read that bombs hit a holocaust museum. I am crying thinking about important memories and facts that may be lost that were stored there. I hope it didn't actually happen, but this is really hard to hear.

It’s worse than that. I can barely type it.

The memorial at Babyn Yar, the site of the largest mass extermination outside of the camps. An entire village was executed - wiped off the map. 34,000 Jews killed.

[karinothing]

Feb 28, 2022 8:32:18 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Feb 28, 2022 8:26:36 GMT -5 karinothing said:

@@@@@@@@

Kid related

There is a report that one of the subs in our school system (teaching 8th grade) was pro Russian and giving kids a lesson on other news sources to check out to get the real story (all propaganda sources). He was telling this to a kid after the kid expressed worry that his family was in Ukraine. Turns out he used to work for Sputnik news. Kind of crazy (this all happened Friday, so I am not sure what the outcome is).

Burn that motherfucker doooown.  WTF!

Update: www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/03/01/arlington-sub-dismissed-ukraine-russia/

[Velar Fricative]

I’ll write more when I have a chance and can actually articulate my thoughts but this is making me think a lot about how we react to one country invading another* and countries that are committing crimes against their own people within their own borders.

*Knowing our country has a shitty recent record of this as well.

[wise_rita]

Mar 1, 2022 20:31:23 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Feb 28, 2022 8:32:18 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Burn that motherfucker doooown.  WTF!

Update: www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/03/01/arlington-sub-dismissed-ukraine-russia/

LOL he got fired by Russian propaganda for spying on Russians to American intelligence?

This fool needs to get his alliance straight.  Are you a Putin stooge or are you not?  Make up your damn mind!

[karinothing]

Mar 2, 2022 3:13:44 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Mar 1, 2022 20:31:23 GMT -5 karinothing said:

Update: www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/03/01/arlington-sub-dismissed-ukraine-russia/

LOL he got fired by Russian propaganda for spying on Russians to American intelligence?

This fool needs to get his alliance straight.  Are you a Putin stooge or are you not?  Make up your damn mind!

Right? It is very weird!

[bears]

I'm not denying that there is a lot of bias that is going into the world's response to Ukraine (as opposed to response to other invasions/crises in Africa, Asia, Middle East). However, that is far from the only reason. Russia has a unique place in our collective imaginations as the "bad guy" and they have nukes they are threatening to use (which makes this far more relevant to the world's day to day than other countries). There are also a ton of parallels with the invasion of Ukraine and the lead up to WW II that are just frightening to consider.

[bears]

This is a really good thread from a crop scientist outlining some of the risks to food supplies due to this invasion. It's really scary to see the damage to ports because it's going to make getting food out of Ukraine really difficult.

[fortnightlily]

Mar 1, 2022 19:22:01 GMT -5 rebneen said:

Mar 1, 2022 18:47:55 GMT -5 marie said:

I just read that bombs hit a holocaust museum. I am crying thinking about important memories and facts that may be lost that were stored there. I hope it didn't actually happen, but this is really hard to hear.

It’s worse than that. I can barely type it.

The memorial at Babyn Yar, the site of the largest mass extermination outside of the camps. An entire village was executed - wiped off the map. 34,000 Jews killed.

The latest update from The NY Times:

"The Babyn Yar Holocaust Memorial Center was not directly damaged during a nearby strike in Kyiv on Tuesday that the Ukrainian authorities said had killed five people, according to Ruslan Kavatsiuk, the deputy chief executive of the center. He said there was damage to a building that the center plans to use for a museum. “We have to build our memorial, because I understand that in Russia there will be no memorial in Babyn Yar,” Mr. Kavatsiuk said."

www.nytimes.com/live/2022/03/02/world/ukraine-russia-war

[carmenere]

Mar 2, 2022 9:23:28 GMT -5 bears said:

I'm not denying that there is a lot of bias that is going into the world's response to Ukraine (as opposed to response to other invasions/crises in Africa, Asia, Middle East). However, that is far from the only reason. Russia has a unique place in our collective imaginations as the "bad guy" and they have nukes they are threatening to use (which makes this far more relevant to the world's day to day than other countries). There are also a ton of parallels with the invasion of Ukraine and the lead up to WW II that are just frightening to consider.

I'd like to think we also have some benefit of hindsight on how badly US-backed invasions and coups have played out.

[Velar Fricative]

UN General Assembly voted in favor of condemning Russia's invasion. 141 in favor, 5 against, 35 abstentions. The 5 against were:

Russia
Belarus
North Korea
Syria
Eritrea (the only surprising one on the list but I admit I don't know much about their relationship with Russia)

The abstentions were overwhelmingly African and Latin American countries that I believe have close economic relationships with Russia. The rest were Central Asian countries that used to be part of the USSR. Several additional countries that might have voted against or abstained weren't present (like Venezuela and Uzbekistan).

[anodyne]

Mar 2, 2022 12:03:57 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

UN General Assembly voted in favor of condemning Russia's invasion. 141 in favor, 5 against, 35 abstentions. The 5 against were:

Russia
Belarus
North Korea
Syria
Eritrea (the only surprising one on the list but I admit I don't know much about their relationship with Russia)

The abstentions were overwhelmingly African and Latin American countries that I believe have close economic relationships with Russia. The rest were Central Asian countries that used to be part of the USSR. Several additional countries that might have voted against or abstained weren't present (like Venezuela and Uzbekistan).

We have friends who are refugees from Eratria. They are one of the most brutal and oppressive governments. Their vote does not surprise me.

[anodyne]

Excuse my ignorance, but what is an iron dome? Is it a singular piece of equipment? Could we supply Ukraine with one or some?

[cattledogkisses]

Mar 2, 2022 12:03:57 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

UN General Assembly voted in favor of condemning Russia's invasion. 141 in favor, 5 against, 35 abstentions. The 5 against were:

Russia
Belarus
North Korea
Syria
Eritrea (the only surprising one on the list but I admit I don't know much about their relationship with Russia)

The abstentions were overwhelmingly African and Latin American countries that I believe have close economic relationships with Russia. The rest were Central Asian countries that used to be part of the USSR. Several additional countries that might have voted against or abstained weren't present (like Venezuela and Uzbekistan).

Where did you find the results? I’m curious about Serbia. 

[Velar Fricative]

Mar 2, 2022 12:46:48 GMT -5 anodyne said:

Mar 2, 2022 12:03:57 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

UN General Assembly voted in favor of condemning Russia's invasion. 141 in favor, 5 against, 35 abstentions. The 5 against were:

Russia
Belarus
North Korea
Syria
Eritrea (the only surprising one on the list but I admit I don't know much about their relationship with Russia)

The abstentions were overwhelmingly African and Latin American countries that I believe have close economic relationships with Russia. The rest were Central Asian countries that used to be part of the USSR. Several additional countries that might have voted against or abstained weren't present (like Venezuela and Uzbekistan).

We have friends who are refugees from Eratria. They are one of the most brutal and oppressive governments. Their vote does not surprise me.

Thank you for confirming. The only Eritrean-Americans I know came here many years ago so I wasn't sure about how things were over there currently.