@ Roe is officially dead

[pooh8402]

Yes, I do believe there is confusion. We are already running into it with the pharmacies. But our patients in my facility can and do get their medications and their surgeries as needed. We've had to add the pertinent diagnosis: missed AB, incomplete AB, ectopic pregnancy, but they do get their meds. I think some providers are being overly cautious at the expense of their patients. I just want to make it clear what the current law says, and the trigger law says, for the purposes of this thread.

I was asked to specifically look these up and found the verbiage that protects ectopic pregnancies and missed/incomplete ABs. I did ask that legal look it over too, but the law was pretty clear *to me.*

Fwiw, we use methotrexate all the time for ectopic.

[NewOrleans]

Jul 5, 2022 4:46:27 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jul 5, 2022 1:52:39 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

ld no longer fill the drug methotrexate in the case of ectopic pregnancy, citing the recent Texas laws, said Dr. Charlie Brown, an Austin-based obstetrician-gynecologist who provided a copy to KHN. Methotrexate also is listed in the Texas law passed last year.

www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/05/10/1097734167/in-texas-abortion-laws-inhibit-care-for-miscarriages

It’s not that pharmacies haven’t gotten the memo. It’s that they’re erring on the side of caution, which is what these laws are meant to do, cause confusion and halt care. Lawyers are the ones who are interpreting these things and telling health care workers what to do based on the vagueness and confusion of the laws. So since methotrexate can be used for an abortion (before mifepristone it was used regularly with misoprostol for induced abortions, not just ectopic and I occasionally see some "old school" docs still use methotrexate for induced abortion or pregnancy of unknown location in abortion care) some pharmacies have decided they don’t want to take the risk of being sued (there were only civil penalties in TX when the article was written before roe vs Wade fell which was a whole new territory and no one knew if people were going to be running around suing everyone) .

I know that, but the post I was replying to made it sound like it was crystal clear, and we know that it’s not for the reasons you describe. ☹️

[NewOrleans]

Jul 5, 2022 0:26:37 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Jul 4, 2022 20:59:37 GMT -5 pooh8402 said:

No, we are not denying this. The laws in Texas do specifically exempt ectopics.

Do you think that there is possibly confusion amongst at least a few practitioners right now about what is/isn't legal? And perhaps some are erring WAY on the side of caution at the moment? Everyone wants to think that their doctor is 100% up on current issues, but there are shitty people in every profession.

I think that confusion is going to be a huge issue for awhile. Hopefully not much for practitioners, but for sure for patients. It could be that some of the stories that we're hearing are due to patients not even wanting to ask for a procedure because they *think* it's not allowed...but in actuality, it is allowed in their state. (And of course, not everything you read on the internet is true/the whole truth, too.)

This article is very informative on the confusion and how much it is endangering people, plus a lot more on the pharmacy issue.

Missouri does not define pregnancy, but describes medical emergency as a condition requiring “immediate abortion” to prevent death “or for which a delay will create a serious risk of substantial and irreversible physical impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman.” Arkansas and Oklahoma define medical emergency as when the pregnant person’s “life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury,” while Texas has a medical emergency exception but does not define the term.

In Missouri, every abortion must be reported to the state, and prosecutors will examine them to confirm a medical emergency was present.

The lack of specificity over what counts as a threat to the mother’s life means some doctors feel pressure to sit and watch patients’ health deteriorate until they’re able to intervene. Serena H. Chen, a fertility doctor in private practice in New Jersey, said a friend in Missouri had been told by her hospital to wait until patients with ectopic pregnancies are unstable before taking them to the operating room. Jane van Dis, professor of obstetrics and gynecology at University of Rochester Medical Center in New York, also tweeted that colleagues in Missouri were now waiting to treat ectopic pregnancies until their patients had falling hemoglobin levels — an indication of blood loss — or unstable vital signs.

www.statnews.com/2022/07/05/a-scary-time-fear-of-prosecution-forces-doctors-to-choose-between-protecting-themselves-or-their-patients/

[bcv513]

Drugs like methotrexate have other uses, including treatment of Crohn's and colitis. I got an email from the Crohn's foundation that they are already seeing patients being denied their meds because they are female and of child-bearing age.

[jeaniebueller]

Jul 5, 2022 8:02:27 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Jul 5, 2022 0:26:37 GMT -5 lilac05 said:

Do you think that there is possibly confusion amongst at least a few practitioners right now about what is/isn't legal? And perhaps some are erring WAY on the side of caution at the moment? Everyone wants to think that their doctor is 100% up on current issues, but there are shitty people in every profession.

I think that confusion is going to be a huge issue for awhile. Hopefully not much for practitioners, but for sure for patients. It could be that some of the stories that we're hearing are due to patients not even wanting to ask for a procedure because they *think* it's not allowed...but in actuality, it is allowed in their state. (And of course, not everything you read on the internet is true/the whole truth, too.)

This article is very informative on the confusion and how much it is endangering people, plus a lot more on the pharmacy issue.

Missouri does not define pregnancy, but describes medical emergency as a condition requiring “immediate abortion” to prevent death “or for which a delay will create a serious risk of substantial and irreversible physical impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman.” Arkansas and Oklahoma define medical emergency as when the pregnant person’s “life is endangered by a physical disorder, physical illness, or physical injury,” while Texas has a medical emergency exception but does not define the term.

In Missouri, every abortion must be reported to the state, and prosecutors will examine them to confirm a medical emergency was present.

The lack of specificity over what counts as a threat to the mother’s life means some doctors feel pressure to sit and watch patients’ health deteriorate until they’re able to intervene. Serena H. Chen, a fertility doctor in private practice in New Jersey, said a friend in Missouri had been told by her hospital to wait until patients with ectopic pregnancies are unstable before taking them to the operating room. Jane van Dis, professor of obstetrics and gynecology at University of Rochester Medical Center in New York, also tweeted that colleagues in Missouri were now waiting to treat ectopic pregnancies until their patients had falling hemoglobin levels — an indication of blood loss — or unstable vital signs.

www.statnews.com/2022/07/05/a-scary-time-fear-of-prosecution-forces-doctors-to-choose-between-protecting-themselves-or-their-patients/

As if a lawyer with no medical training should be the one to make this determination FFS

[neverfstop]

Per Axios.... Let the misinformation/censoring begin.
www.axios.com/2022/07/01/roe-battlefield-online-abortion-information?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter_axioswhatsnext&stream=science


Conservative activists are aiming to limit or ban online information sharing about abortion, Axios' Ashley Gold reports.



Those seeking to share information online about abortion will be in the crosshairs of restrictive state laws and changing social media policies.



 In the wake of the Supreme Court's abortion ruling, tech platforms are struggling to moderate content and misinformation around the topic.



Confusion reigns around what can and can't be said about abortion in different online spaces.

Motherboard reported that Facebook was "removing the posts of users who share status updates that say abortion pills can be mailed and in some cases temporarily banning those users."

Meta, whose policies prohibit people from purchasing and selling "non-medical drugs, pharmaceutical drugs and marijuana" on the platform, said some posts were incorrectly removed.

Shout Your Abortion, a campaign that promotes abortion access and education, posted this week that Instagram was putting "sensitive material" warnings on posts mentioning abortion, abortion pills or criticizing the Supreme Court's decision. (Instagram says it's looking into sensitivity labels being incorrectly used.)

What they're saying: "We are worried about censorship, we have been censored by social media sites already," Elisa Wells, co-director of Plan C, a website with information about medication abortion, told Axios.



 Beyond social media platforms' crackdown, conservative legislatures may pass laws criminalizing online speech about abortion on websites and internet services.

Such laws could violate the First Amendment and Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which largely shields websites from liability for what their users post.

[kiminky]

I am reading on Twitter per Elie Mystal and others that Biden will take executive action re: abortion on Friday. Anyone else seeing this, know what it means?

ETA:https://apnews.com/article/abortion-biden-us-supreme-court-government-and-politics-0e6496122de46f1039cbb2b5145d6d60

[wanderingback]

Jul 8, 2022 0:19:46 GMT -5 kiminky said:

I am reading on Twitter per Elie Mystal and others that Biden will take executive action re: abortion on Friday. Anyone else seeing this, know what it means?

ETA:https://apnews.com/article/abortion-biden-us-supreme-court-government-and-politics-0e6496122de46f1039cbb2b5145d6d60

Yes I’ve seen the articles come out overnight. I don’t think anyone knows exactly what it means since the wording of the order hasn’t come out. Since this decision wasn’t a surprise it’s frustrating that action has taken this long, but not surprising since his office has been slow to meet with some key stake holders and the fact that he has only said the word abortion a couple of times. Ugh.

www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/biden-to-sign-executive-order-to-protect-some-abortion-access-ap-reports

[shauni27]

Jul 8, 2022 4:15:21 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Jul 8, 2022 0:19:46 GMT -5 kiminky said:

I am reading on Twitter per Elie Mystal and others that Biden will take executive action re: abortion on Friday. Anyone else seeing this, know what it means?

ETA:https://apnews.com/article/abortion-biden-us-supreme-court-government-and-politics-0e6496122de46f1039cbb2b5145d6d60

Yes I’ve seen the articles come out overnight. I don’t think anyone knows exactly what it means since the wording of the order hasn’t come out. Since this decision wasn’t a surprise it’s frustrating that action has taken this long, but not surprising since his office has been slow to meet with some key stake holders and the fact that he has only said the word abortion a couple of times. Ugh.

www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/biden-to-sign-executive-order-to-protect-some-abortion-access-ap-reports

NPR had a story on it this morning. Basically that it says in broad terms that there will be safety nets to help those seeking abortions to cross state lines and to protect providers who are still providing abortions near borders of states that no longer allow them, but there are no specifics known yet. They implied it would not make much of a difference and expressed how frustrated pro abortion groups were that Biden has taken so long to do ANYTHING at all about it.

[wanderingback]

Ok I got info of what’s in the EO. What it actually means I’ll have to wait for lawyers assessments to how helpful it is in practical standpoints. There is supposed to be a 11:30 speech when he signs it. You can watch live at the White House website.

[pixy0stix]

CO will not participate in criminal or civil abortion investigations. coloradosun.com/2022/07/06/colorado-abortion-investigations-polis-executive-order/

[niemand88f]

A judge granted an injunction against Utah's extremely limiting trigger law, so for now abortions are legal up to 18 weeks:

"Planned Parenthood filed a lawsuit against the new law that bans abortions in Utah except in cases where the mom or baby has serious universally diagnosable health concerns or in cases of rape or incest.

The judge said there are clearly multiple serious constitutional issues to consider in this lawsuit. Stone also said Planned Parenthood showed that without an injunction, there would be irreparable harm....

The Utah law will now indefinitely be on hold while the lawsuit proceeds or an appeal is granted."

www.ksl.com/article/50437988/judge-places-new-ban-on-utahs-abortion-law-until-planned-parenthood-lawsuit-is-settled

[sonrisa]

These assholes in Texas

freedomfortexas.com/uploads/blog/3b118c262155759454e423f6600e2196709787a8.pdf

[shauni27]

Jul 12, 2022 0:10:33 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

These assholes in Texas

freedomfortexas.com/uploads/blog/3b118c262155759454e423f6600e2196709787a8.pdf

there is a special place in hell for these fucking guys.

[jlt19]

Jul 12, 2022 0:10:33 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

These assholes in Texas

freedomfortexas.com/uploads/blog/3b118c262155759454e423f6600e2196709787a8.pdf

Going after law firms, seems, not the brightest. Also, if they’re going to start suing every corporation and business in Texas, sounds like the state coffers will run out of money and businesses will move elsewhere. I really hope they’re shooting themselves in the foot here.

[audette]

Jul 12, 2022 0:10:33 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

These assholes in Texas

freedomfortexas.com/uploads/blog/3b118c262155759454e423f6600e2196709787a8.pdf

Damn...  That's some pretty strong-arm tactics there.


If they keep playing this card, employers will start to leave Texas.  I've already let my employer know that I'm not moving to a state that bans abortion,.  And that any DEI efforts they may pursue are utterly pointless until and unless they offer assistance to employees/dependents that need to travel for healthcare - not supporting such renders a complete lack of equity of opportunity to employees.


A buddy that came to visit was making a hard sell for her employer over the weekend.  They're desperate for engineers.  The nearest office is in Indiana, but they have already come out and said they are providing travel assistance.  (I think headquarters for her company are European, which may help...)

[NewOrleans]

Jul 12, 2022 10:15:36 GMT -5 audette said:

Jul 12, 2022 0:10:33 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

These assholes in Texas

freedomfortexas.com/uploads/blog/3b118c262155759454e423f6600e2196709787a8.pdf

If they keep playing this card, employers will start to leave Texas. 

Doubt it.  I don’t think they *really* care.  Now they can say “we tried but meanie lawmakers made us stop” and go about their business of profit. When have employers every consistently, diligently done the socially just thing? 

[Velar Fricative]

Jul 12, 2022 13:20:08 GMT -5 NewOrleans said:

Jul 12, 2022 10:15:36 GMT -5 audette said:

If they keep playing this card, employers will start to leave Texas. 

Doubt it.  I don’t think they *really* care.  Now they can say “we tried but meanie lawmakers made us stop” and go about their business of profit. When have employers every consistently, diligently done the socially just thing? 

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. It's a lot easier for them to stay in TX and reap all the financial benefits and pay for people to get abortion care out of state when they need it, and/or hire remote workers.