@@@ ban on gas stoves being considered

[pixy0stix]

Jan 11, 2023 14:35:15 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

Jan 11, 2023 14:25:35 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

ALSO, THIS IS THE GIVE THE BIG OFFENDERS A KICK LEGISLATION! FFS. Did you (general) really think your day to day lives were going to stay the same when oil and gas started to really get regulated? Of course all of this would be severely restricted. This is the result.

Oh, I agree. I just hope it does, indeed, trickle up (is that a thing?) to industries. Of course every effort, no matter how small, is important. I just wish everyone could agree to work together. Wishful thinking and all that.

Yeah, right now it's down to states. CO is really trying to restrict what is happening with gas along the lines of new construction, and new taps. CO is in a unique position where we produce natural gas, and it's literally killing us. Our atmosphere just can't handle the emissions from production. I'm going to wager that at some point we surpass CA in legislation just because our air quality is so bad along the front range. 

Further with the CO legislation, they stopped short of stopping subsidizing gas production, I think because it would have caused our gas to skyrocket and really hurt people who rely on it to heat their homes. So I think the push is going to be to electrify everything first, and then remove the subsidies. Which, again, god help those people that don't make the change before then. When that will happen, though, who knows.

[arehopsveggies]

Both of our kitchen remodels we have had gas stoves but gone ahead and wired to have electric a possibility in the future.

Gas is significantly cheaper for me right now though, so I’m not in a huge hurry to replace. I do worry because everyone in our household is asthmatic.

[notreal]

Sort of off topic, I need to update the cooling system for my house. I know the environmentally correct solution is to just go without but unfortunately, when I don't use cooling device,it gets up to 90 degrees inside my house and some of the people who live there have issues breathing at that temperature. I always run it at 79 degrees at least.

What's the most responsible direction we can go for a replacement?

[pixy0stix]

Jan 11, 2023 20:57:29 GMT -5 notreal said:

Sort of off topic, I need to update the cooling system for my house. I know the environmentally correct solution is to just go without but unfortunately, when I don't use cooling device,it gets up to 90 degrees inside my house and some of the people who live there have issues breathing at that temperature. I always run it at 79 degrees at least.

What's the most responsible direction we can go for a replacement?

Currently it's a ground source heat pump. Basically it keeps your home the same temperature year round. In The winter it draws heat, and in the summer it dumps heat.

[arehopsveggies]

Our gas bill is usually $80 in the winter and is $125 due this month. That’s… a big jump

[basilosaurus]

Jan 11, 2023 21:39:38 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 11, 2023 20:57:29 GMT -5 notreal said:

Sort of off topic, I need to update the cooling system for my house. I know the environmentally correct solution is to just go without but unfortunately, when I don't use cooling device,it gets up to 90 degrees inside my house and some of the people who live there have issues breathing at that temperature. I always run it at 79 degrees at least.

What's the most responsible direction we can go for a replacement?

Currently it's a ground source heat pump. Basically it keeps your home the same temperature year round. In The winter it draws heat, and in the summer it dumps heat.

and in places without winter?

I don't just mean tropical places I've lived. Many places in the us rarely get all that cold. What's the threshold for this to work?

There are obviously steps to mitigate high temps. It's 90 outside daily here, and I haven't turned on ac in weeks, haven't needed it. My other house in same neighborhood with similar layout was very different where I need air con every day. I've also lived where inside temp is 95 (no ac available) despite outside being lower. There was no winter. Lowest was 70 at most. See again: renter.

I don't mean to be a naysayer. I really am curious.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 12, 2023 2:07:27 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

Jan 11, 2023 21:39:38 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Currently it's a ground source heat pump. Basically it keeps your home the same temperature year round. In The winter it draws heat, and in the summer it dumps heat.

and in places without winter?

I don't just mean tropical places I've lived. Many places in the us rarely get all that cold. What's the threshold for this to work?

There are obviously steps to mitigate high temps. It's 90 outside daily here, and I haven't turned on ac in weeks, haven't needed it. My other house in same neighborhood with similar layout was very different where I need air con every day. I've also lived where inside temp is 95 (no ac available) despite outside being lower. There was no winter. Lowest was 70 at most. See again: renter.

I don't mean to be a naysayer. I really am curious.

Yes. I thought I was fairly clear. Underground is an even 55 degrees. The newer pumps shouldn't matter what temp the environment is if it's geothermal. I'm wondering if some of the other heat pumps mentioned here are air exchange heat pumps.

[formerlyak]

Jan 11, 2023 14:35:15 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

Jan 11, 2023 14:25:35 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

ALSO, THIS IS THE GIVE THE BIG OFFENDERS A KICK LEGISLATION! FFS. Did you (general) really think your day to day lives were going to stay the same when oil and gas started to really get regulated? Of course all of this would be severely restricted. This is the result.

Oh, I agree. I just hope it does, indeed, trickle up (is that a thing?) to industries. Of course every effort, no matter how small, is important. I just wish everyone could agree to work together. Wishful thinking and all that.

We may start to see more trickling up. I know here in CA all new cars after a certain year have to be electric. My dad wasn’t a fan when it first passed but he bought a little Chevy Bolt. He loved not having to go to the gas station so much that he decided his next car was going to be an electric Chevy Equinox when the came out. He passed away in October but my mom now only drives the Bolt. They were such naysayers until they tried it.

Out port here in LA requires that ships plug in when they are in port instead of running their engines with gas while they unload. Some companies don’t like it so they go to other states, but most just comply and are fine with it. And many are starting to look in to electric trucks to bring cargo off the ships.

I recognize I’m in an area that loves their electric cars now, but that wasn’t always the case. People were quite resistant at first. Now seeing a place to plug in is just as common as seeing a gas station in my area and most people I know have added a way to charge to their homes. It just takes time.

[notreal]

Jan 12, 2023 8:22:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 12, 2023 2:07:27 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

and in places without winter?

I don't just mean tropical places I've lived. Many places in the us rarely get all that cold. What's the threshold for this to work?

There are obviously steps to mitigate high temps. It's 90 outside daily here, and I haven't turned on ac in weeks, haven't needed it. My other house in same neighborhood with similar layout was very different where I need air con every day. I've also lived where inside temp is 95 (no ac available) despite outside being lower. There was no winter. Lowest was 70 at most. See again: renter.

I don't mean to be a naysayer. I really am curious.

Yes. I thought I was fairly clear. Underground is an even 55 degrees. The newer pumps shouldn't matter what temp the environment is if it's geothermal. I'm wondering if some of the other heat pumps mentioned here are air exchange heat pumps.

I worked at a cave as a summer job and one of the old timers used to say he could never quit his job because he liked knowing what the weather was going to be everyday.  "Down there it's always 55 and no rain."  


The sellers just put in a furnace three years ago at my house but I'm still going to research a heat pump, so thanks for the information.

[basilosaurus]

I'm sorry I missed it. 55 won't work for much of the southeast. We would see that one they few years. So what's the option for a large # people in that region?

And I realize gas is mostly for heat, but the thread seems to have turned to cooling. And we've moved far from stoves.

I maintain that renters will still deal with whatever is cheapest for landlords. And when they are forced to replace we'll pay for all of it and way more. I really think this needs to get wider coverage.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 12, 2023 11:19:17 GMT -5 basilosaurus said:

I'm sorry I missed it. 55 won't work for much of the southeast. We would see that one they few years. So what's the option for a large # people in that region?

And I realize gas is mostly for heat, but the thread seems to have turned to cooling. And we've moved far from stoves.

I maintain that renters will still deal with whatever is cheapest for landlords. And when they are forced to replace we'll pay for all of it and way more. I really think this needs to get wider coverage.

Please google heat pumps, as you and I are missing each other completely.

[formerlyak]

Here is a good explanation about how heat pumps work.

www.carrier.com/residential/en/us/products/heat-pumps/what-is-a-heat-pump-how-does-it-work/#

[bee20]

Looks like there are some heavy subsidies coming from the government, up to a free heat pump for households under 80% of the area median.

www.whitehouse.gov/cleanenergy/

[wawa]

re: people who want to improve their personal indoor air quality but are not in a position to buy a new stove - saw this tweet today saying the same thing I mentioned about just getting a portable induction burner to bridge the gap:

[steamboat185]

Jan 13, 2023 10:04:59 GMT -5 wawa said:

re: people who want to improve their personal indoor air quality but are not in a position to buy a new stove - saw this tweet today saying the same thing I mentioned about just getting a portable induction burner to bridge the gap:

We use a slightly different model in our campervan and it work well and is pretty small. I think DH bought ours for about 50 dollars. I’ve even brought it into a hotel room to make pancakes since there is no flame or real heat. They make discs that will allow any pan to work on the induction cooktop and they are about 10-20 dollars. You drop a bit of the control, but it’s not a huge problem for most of our cooking.

[basilosaurus]

That cooktop is basically my only stove. And it works for most of my needs.

But I'm also someone who will use all four burners so I've felt the pinch having just the one. So I bought a second.

[jeaniebueller]

Jan 10, 2023 13:52:42 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Yes, or you can get a generator if/when you need to get rid of your gas stove. Or invest in solar with a battery bank. Frankly, any other winter/emergency preparation is better than using your gas stove for emergency heat. Pretty much every emergency agency says to NOT use your gas stove for heat as it's too great an asphyxiation risk.

Not everyone can afford to invest in a generator for an emergency. I’m surprised this needs to be said.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 14, 2023 11:25:56 GMT -5 jeaniebueller said:

Jan 10, 2023 13:52:42 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Yes, or you can get a generator if/when you need to get rid of your gas stove. Or invest in solar with a battery bank. Frankly, any other winter/emergency preparation is better than using your gas stove for emergency heat. Pretty much every emergency agency says to NOT use your gas stove for heat as it's too great an asphyxiation risk.

Not everyone can afford to invest in a generator for an emergency. I’m surprised this needs to be said.

Which is why it wasn't said, lol! We all know this. But thanks for stating the obvious.

That being said, people better be figuring it out.

[erbear]

Somewhere there has to be a recognition that 1) we know natural gas isn’t ideal and 2) lots of people can’t afford to switch. I know there are government incentives, etc but it’s not enough for a lot of people. Does anyone know if there are plans in the works to try to address the inequity of who can afford electric and who cannot?

[pixy0stix]

Jan 14, 2023 12:32:48 GMT -5 erbear said:

Somewhere there has to be a recognition that 1) we know natural gas isn’t ideal and 2) lots of people can’t afford to switch. I know there are government incentives, etc but it’s not enough for a lot of people. Does anyone know if there are plans in the works to try to address the inequity of who can afford electric and who cannot?

The bill that was just passed is giving people who are low income higher tax incentives.

[erbear]

Jan 14, 2023 12:35:00 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jan 14, 2023 12:32:48 GMT -5 erbear said:

Somewhere there has to be a recognition that 1) we know natural gas isn’t ideal and 2) lots of people can’t afford to switch. I know there are government incentives, etc but it’s not enough for a lot of people. Does anyone know if there are plans in the works to try to address the inequity of who can afford electric and who cannot?

The bill that was just passed is giving people who are low income higher tax incentives.

I’m not being an ass here. Do you think it’s enough of a financial Incentive to be feasible for most lower income people?

[pinkplasticdoll]

Jan 14, 2023 12:36:23 GMT -5 erbear said:

Jan 14, 2023 12:35:00 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

The bill that was just passed is giving people who are low income higher tax incentives.

I’m not being an ass here. Do you think it’s enough of a financial Incentive to be feasible for most lower income people?

I also don't see this being a priority for low income folks, regardless of the tax incentives it likely won't be at the top of the improvement list for a household.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 14, 2023 12:36:23 GMT -5 erbear said:

Jan 14, 2023 12:35:00 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

The bill that was just passed is giving people who are low income higher tax incentives.

I’m not being an ass here. Do you think it’s enough of a financial Incentive to be feasible for most lower income people?

No, but also not being an ass here, if people don't start switching over they're going to die. There's only so much the government can do, and it took several years of negotiation to even get where we are.

We can either live in the absolute moral purity of being fair to everyone, or we can live in the reality that we know there are inequalities and help where we can. Such as, if we have the means to start implementing these improvements ourselves before there is a catastrophe (gas prices soaring for example) to then start demanding the supplies.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 14, 2023 12:39:59 GMT -5 pinkplasticdoll said:

Jan 14, 2023 12:36:23 GMT -5 erbear said:

I’m not being an ass here. Do you think it’s enough of a financial Incentive to be feasible for most lower income people?

I also don't see this being a priority for low income folks, regardless of the tax incentives it likely won't be at the top of the improvement list for a household.

It absolutely won't be, which is why there needs to be better information campaigns to start pushing it. Not the gas stoves per day, but giving people the tools to make better decisions in the long run. (And before someone points it out for token internet likes, I'm not talking about the.people living paycheck to paycheck. I really don't have a.good solution to that.)

[pixy0stix]

Also, I feel the need to point out that natural gas production SEVERELY impacts non-white neighborhoods to the point of lowered lifespans in those areas. www.cbsnews.com/news/natural-gas-leaks-low-income-communities-of-color-study/

[pixy0stix]

The problem is SO BIG from climate change preparedness to phasing out outmoded energy sources.

In general when I post I'm speaking to this audience on the board, which is mostly US based, mostly white, mostly upper middle class. So if I say that people should be looking at generators for emergency use if your grid is in danger, I mean this board. It's a warning and a prediction. Things are only going to get so much worse before they start getting better. Especially in certain states.

[pixy0stix]

Jan 14, 2023 13:26:07 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Jan 14, 2023 12:57:54 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

The problem is SO BIG from climate change preparedness to phasing out outmoded energy sources.

In general when I post I'm speaking to this audience on the board, which is mostly US based, mostly white, mostly upper middle class. So if I say that people should be looking at generators for emergency use if your grid is in danger, I mean this board. It's a warning and a prediction. Things are only going to get so much worse before they start getting better. Especially in certain states.

I have a whole house generator, but it’s also powered by natural gas, so is that not problematic?

In terms of natural gas, yes. In terms of emergency preparedness, maybe because of long run availability and pricing. In your case it would be good to keep in mind that in the long run this isn't a permanent solution. Do I have a solution, no.

[curbsideprophet]

Jan 14, 2023 13:26:07 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Jan 14, 2023 12:57:54 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

The problem is SO BIG from climate change preparedness to phasing out outmoded energy sources.

In general when I post I'm speaking to this audience on the board, which is mostly US based, mostly white, mostly upper middle class. So if I say that people should be looking at generators for emergency use if your grid is in danger, I mean this board. It's a warning and a prediction. Things are only going to get so much worse before they start getting better. Especially in certain states.

I have a whole house generator, but it’s also powered by natural gas, so is that not problematic?

I was also wondering about this. Not sure what other options there are.

[aurora]

Heat pumps are definitely improving in recent years. In the short term it's possible to get them combined with a gas furnace and electric AC, which can reduce your draw substantially. The basic idea is the heat pump does a lot of the work but if you still need a little more heat or cooling you can get it from the more traditional part of the unit. (I am not an expert but started looking in to this last month and this is one of the products we've been quoted.)

[cattledogkisses]

Jan 14, 2023 13:26:07 GMT -5 mofongo said:

Jan 14, 2023 12:57:54 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

The problem is SO BIG from climate change preparedness to phasing out outmoded energy sources.

In general when I post I'm speaking to this audience on the board, which is mostly US based, mostly white, mostly upper middle class. So if I say that people should be looking at generators for emergency use if your grid is in danger, I mean this board. It's a warning and a prediction. Things are only going to get so much worse before they start getting better. Especially in certain states.

I have a whole house generator, but it’s also powered by natural gas, so is that not problematic?

We have a whole house generator that runs on propane.  I figure that an emergency device that only gets used rarely and for short periods of time is much less problematic than a gas appliance that gets used daily. 

I do admit that I don't have another solution though.