@TW: Boston area story of Infanticide/suicide

[basilosaurus]

I appreciate the analogy to how cancer can still win despite everything you throw at it.

This is just tragic, and it's hard to accept that maybe there was nothing to be done. It's also hard to accept maybe there was something that wasn't done.

PP mentioned too early release. I've been on a psych hold a few times. VA made 72 hrs mandatory after the tech shooting. You sneeze wrong, and you can be locked up. That's only a slight exaggeration. A friend called a wellness check on me, I got taken in, was held for 72hrs with zero stimulation beyond old left behind magazines, no therapy, nothing, not even med trials. After 72 I wasn't automatically granted release. I had to go before a panel, prove I had resources (which I truly had great access to). The psych on the panel was pissed I was released and refused to write my scripts. So, that's what comes from forcing time.

It was really miserable. As a result I basically shut down divulging my inner thoughts even to my therapist and partner.

Jail can be a deterrent as well but is rarely a solution. That's how I felt about my time on locked wards. Gah, going before a panel was so fucking demeaning. And it did nothing. Obviously I cannot speak to post partum issues, as I've never been pregnant, but I think I can relate to how it feels to have only shit options. Until our country gets its shit together, there's not much to be done. I went inpatient for a couple months thanks to great coverage and ability to not work. That's incredibly rare to be that privileged. And I still seek treatment, cautiously.

[tiramisu]

basilosaurus that was me. It's something I see often in my work. I don't like the way you describe the VA handling it and how you are treated. That's terrible. I was thinking of the people who have, say, made a serious threat of violence and then less than 24 hours later are released from the hospital because "they don't feel that way anymore today, they said so when we assessed them this morning." I've had to take someone right back to the hospital that just released them before and tell them the person still needs help because they were treated like you said -- no medication trials, no therapy, nothing of use. Many 72 hour holds are probably at ERs where there really isn't treatment, instead of at psychiatric hospitals where typically there is. We also know from research that the time immediately following release is a period of high risk and that's really not adequately addressed. I'm sure there are so many systems to blame for it getting to this point. Again, I'm so sorry for what you went through at the VA. I can understand why you don't want to share or disclose anymore.

[basilosaurus]

Jan 31, 2023 4:51:17 GMT -5 tiramisu said:

basilosaurus that was me. It's something I see often in my work. I don't like the way you describe the VA handling it and how you are treated. That's terrible. I was thinking of the people who have, say, made a serious threat of violence and then less than 24 hours later are released from the hospital because "they don't feel that way anymore today, they said so when we assessed them this morning." I've had to take someone right back to the hospital that just released them before and tell them the person still needs help because they were treated like you said -- no medication trials, no therapy, nothing of use. Many 72 hour holds are probably at ERs where there really isn't treatment, instead of at psychiatric hospitals where typically there is. We also know from research that the time immediately following release is a period of high risk and that's really not adequately addressed. I'm sure there are so many systems to blame for it getting to this point. Again, I'm so sorry for what you went through at the VA. I can understand why you don't want to share or disclose anymore.

to be clear this was not va. It was civilian policy with Tricare coverage.

VA was Virginia.

[wise_rita]

With the car accident analogy in mind, shouldn't we be telling new moms again and again, "If you feel like hurting the baby, set it down in public and walk away"?

Maybe it will fall on deaf ears in a psychosis event maybe just one potential Susan Smith will take the advice before things go too far.

[beetea]

Jan 28, 2023 12:10:32 GMT -5 devonpow said:

Sleep is HUGE. I don’t want to downplay biological/brain
/hormone reasons for depression, nor the need for medication at times, but I think the lack of sleep majorly exacerbates things. I mean, humans aren’t really meant to live the way we do now, separated from extended family/not in more communal living situations. There’s no real help with sleep, and the lack of sleep a lot of new parents experience is frankly dangerous. Yet we aren’t given any real solutions. With DS2 we were lucky enough to be able to get a night nurse s few nights a week for the first few months and the difference it made was HUGE. But, how is that feasible for most people? It’s not.

After my 2nd baby was born (20 months after baby 1) and I was deep, deep in the throes of PPD/PPA, I finally mustered up the energy to make an appointment to see a psychiatrist. Neither of my children were good sleepers and my husband and I had a sort of strategy where he'd take care of baby 1 over night and I'd take care of the new guy. The psychiatrist took one look at me and said that until I was getting more sleep, it would be really difficult to address anything else. It was very much am "Are you fucking kidding me???" moment for me, as I sat there bawling my eyes out. I understood what she was saying but it was so frustrating to hear in that moment since I would OBVIOUSLY be getting more sleep if there was any remotely feasilbe way to make that happen. 

I love that night nurses are becoming more common now. I would have happily sacrificed a kidney for one of them back in the day.

[tiramisu]

basilosaurus sorry about that! That's what I get for trying to respond to anything after a long work shift.

[cricketwife]

Jan 31, 2023 11:41:52 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

With the car accident analogy in mind, shouldn't we be telling new moms again and again, "If you feel like hurting the baby, set it down in public and walk away"?

Maybe it will fall on deaf ears in a psychosis event maybe just one potential Susan Smith will take the advice before things go too far.

Except she will likely be charged with neglect, abandonment, and child endangerment.  It all feels very “damned if you do and damned it you don’t.”  And CPS is probably going to come in and take your child.  And of course none of these things will actually help the mother. 

I mean, of course you are right in what you are suggesting, in terms of safety of the child, but on top of inadequate mental health support, the legal system is so far behind.

[erbear]

Jan 31, 2023 11:41:52 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

With the car accident analogy in mind, shouldn't we be telling new moms again and again, "If you feel like hurting the baby, set it down in public and walk away"?

Maybe it will fall on deaf ears in a psychosis event maybe just one potential Susan Smith will take the advice before things go too far.

I remember my sister (an ob) telling me as I was crying hysterically “put the baby in the crib, close the door and go downstairs where you can’t hear her. She’s safe and she’ll be ok crying but she won’t be if you stay in there”. We need to support new moms.

[wise_rita]

Jan 31, 2023 20:01:13 GMT -5 cricketwife said:

Jan 31, 2023 11:41:52 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

With the car accident analogy in mind, shouldn't we be telling new moms again and again, "If you feel like hurting the baby, set it down in public and walk away"?

Maybe it will fall on deaf ears in a psychosis event maybe just one potential Susan Smith will take the advice before things go too far.

Except she will likely be charged with neglect, abandonment, and child endangerment.  It all feels very “damned if you do and damned it you don’t.”  And CPS is probably going to come in and take your child.  And of course none of these things will actually help the mother. 

I mean, of course you are right in what you are suggesting, in terms of safety of the child, but on top of inadequate mental health support, the legal system is so far behind.

Of course, but a child endangerment charge is preferable to literally every party involved to...this.

[neeps]

Jan 30, 2023 21:07:57 GMT -5 ckay said:

I can’t help but think the dad is going to struggle with guilt for leaving to get food (I am NOT saying he did anything wrong, just I assume he’s going to second guess that decision for the rest of his life). Just a terrible situation all around.

Many years ago a very close friend of mine had PPP. She and her husband were advised that she could not be alone with the baby - at all. This was before remote work, door dash, Instacart, etc. It was a heavy lift, but her friend groups from all over helped pulled scheduled shifts to stay with her and the baby so that her H could go to work. Medication, therapy and honestly sleep and she's fine now, her kids are teenagers. But maybe she could have been this mom if they had not reached out for help and that makes this story haunt me. I do wonder if the Boston family were advised that she should not be alone with the kids? Were they doing all the "right" things by getting intense therapy 5 days a week and were failed in this one area? If so, that would be even more tragic, but maybe it's as pp said too that mental illness just wins sometimes and my friend and all of us that helped just got lucky in eking out a win for her. Everything about this story is just sad.

[frlcb]

Jan 30, 2023 21:07:57 GMT -5 ckay said:

I can’t help but think the dad is going to struggle with guilt for leaving to get food (I am NOT saying he did anything wrong, just I assume he’s going to second guess that decision for the rest of his life). Just a terrible situation all around.

Don't read comments or things like reddit, because there are actually people blaming the dad or even saying things sound 'suspicious' and believing he could have done it. It's maddening.

[wanderingback]

Feb 1, 2023 6:16:49 GMT -5 neeps said:

Jan 30, 2023 21:07:57 GMT -5 ckay said:

I can’t help but think the dad is going to struggle with guilt for leaving to get food (I am NOT saying he did anything wrong, just I assume he’s going to second guess that decision for the rest of his life). Just a terrible situation all around.

Many years ago a very close friend of mine had PPP. She and her husband were advised that she could not be alone with the baby - at all. This was before remote work, door dash, Instacart, etc. It was a heavy lift, but her friend groups from all over helped pulled scheduled shifts to stay with her and the baby so that her H could go to work. Medication, therapy and honestly sleep and she's fine now, her kids are teenagers. But maybe she could have been this mom if they had not reached out for help and that makes this story haunt me. I do wonder if the Boston family were advised that she should not be alone with the kids? Were they doing all the "right" things by getting intense therapy 5 days a week and were failed in this one area? If so, that would be even more tragic, but maybe it's as pp said too that mental illness just wins sometimes and my friend and all of us that helped just got lucky in eking out a win for her. Everything about this story is just sad.

I don’t want to spread rumors but someone in this post said she was getting intensive therapy and the dad was working from home because of her illness and only left for 15 minutes. I assume she was calm and not dealing with kids having a meltdown when he left, so I’m sure he obviously had no idea she would do what she did in a short period of time.

[icedcoffee]

Jan 31, 2023 11:41:52 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

With the car accident analogy in mind, shouldn't we be telling new moms again and again, "If you feel like hurting the baby, set it down in public and walk away"?

Maybe it will fall on deaf ears in a psychosis event maybe just one potential Susan Smith will take the advice before things go too far.

The very best advice was when my pediatrician told me it's ok to put the baby in his crib, close the door and walk away.  I honestly could kiss him.  I was on the verge of a mental breakdown and guess what?  It worked!  I went downstairs, poured a glass of wine, started a movie, he cried for 5 minutes and fell asleep and this was the start of him sleeping at night instead of keeping me up all night.  I told him a month later he may have saved my life and my child's.

ETA:  My OB was worthless postpartum.  The only people I felt cared for me were the pedi and the lactation consultant (also at me pedi's office).

[maudefindlay]

I'll be curious to see what happens to Lindsay Clancy. Andrea Yates was initially found guilty and sentenced to life with chance for parole after 40 yrs, but 4 yrs later she appealed and was declared not guilty by reason of insanity. She can go up for review each year at the mental health facility where she resides to see if she is safe to be released, but she declines review every year and chooses to remain there receiving treatment saying she is where she needs to be and feels safe there. It should also be noted Andrea Yates also was diagnosed with Schizophrenia in addition to PPD and PPD Psychosis.

[somersault72]

Feb 1, 2023 7:17:09 GMT -5 frlcb said:

Jan 30, 2023 21:07:57 GMT -5 ckay said:

I can’t help but think the dad is going to struggle with guilt for leaving to get food (I am NOT saying he did anything wrong, just I assume he’s going to second guess that decision for the rest of his life). Just a terrible situation all around.

Don't read comments or things like reddit, because there are actually people blaming the dad or even saying things sound 'suspicious' and believing he could have done it. It's maddening.

I wish I was surprised. People love to blame and judge other people, especially from behind their keyboard.


@@my cousins' lost their daughter in a tragic drowning accident when she was 18 months old. There was a news article that didn't give any identifying info but just said a child drowned and the comments were awful. People were saying things "someone should drown the parents." The commenters didn't know any specifics, they don't know my family. I really hope my cousins never read any of those things.

[tiramisu]

I want to thank everyone who's shared their experiences in this thread. I come across a range of different crises at work and reading what you've all shared has already helped me with one of the situations I encountered. The increased understanding hopefully helped me with how I interested with someone and definitely reminded me to identify specific postpartum support resources in my area to share with those who need it.

[mcsangel2]

OT but I wonder how many GBCNers reading this thread are young enough that they'd never heard of Susan Smith or Andrea Yates.

[scm1011]

I don't think we should put Susan Smith in the same category as Andrea Yates and Lindsay Clancy. Susan Smith allegedly drown her children because she was having an affair with a man who didn't want kids, then she spent a week pointing fingers at an imaginary black kidnapper.

[cattledogkisses]

Feb 2, 2023 10:03:20 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

OT but I wonder how many GBCNers reading this thread are young enough that they'd never heard of Susan Smith or Andrea Yates.

IIRC from the age poll we did once I’m on the younger end of the regular crowd here (just turned 37 a few weeks ago) and I do remember Andrea Yates. 

[mcsangel2]

Feb 2, 2023 11:11:36 GMT -5 scm1011 said:

I don't think we should put Susan Smith in the same category as Andrea Yates and Lindsay Clancy. Susan Smith allegedly drown her children because she was having an affair with a man who didn't want kids, then she spent a week pointing fingers at an imaginary black kidnapper.

I was thinking about that myself, after I posted. I agree. Her case was not related to PPD or PPA.

[seeyalater52]

Feb 2, 2023 12:34:54 GMT -5 cattledogkisses said:

Feb 2, 2023 10:03:20 GMT -5 mcsangel2 said:

OT but I wonder how many GBCNers reading this thread are young enough that they'd never heard of Susan Smith or Andrea Yates.

IIRC from the age poll we did once I’m on the younger end of the regular crowd here (just turned 37 a few weeks ago) and I do remember Andrea Yates. 

I’m 35 and absolutely remember Andrea Yates.

[janegold]

I'm 39 and remember Andrea Yates. I've been thinking about her a lot, actually, because my memory is that she was fairly vilified (I'm aware that there is sadly plenty of that out there for Lindsay Clancy too) and I do NOT remember nearly as much discussion around postpartum health and PPP at the time. I've been wondering whether I was just less tuned into the postpartum mental health aspect at the time, being young, or if there was less societal understanding and compassion at the time.

[meanie]

Feb 2, 2023 13:50:09 GMT -5 janegold said:

I'm 39 and remember Andrea Yates. I've been thinking about her a lot, actually, because my memory is that she was fairly vilified (I'm aware that there is sadly plenty of that out there for Lindsay Clancy too) and I do NOT remember nearly as much discussion around postpartum health and PPP at the time. I've been wondering whether I was just less tuned into the postpartum mental health aspect at the time, being young, or if there was less societal understanding and compassion at the time.

Yes she was - there was a totally different response back then and she was totally vilified. I don't really remember anyone talking about PPD back then and I certainly never heard about it myself until I had kids.

This story is local-ish to me and we have friends who are in that community and know people involved...it is beyond comprehension.

[hermione]

Feb 2, 2023 11:11:36 GMT -5 scm1011 said:

I don't think we should put Susan Smith in the same category as Andrea Yates and Lindsay Clancy. Susan Smith allegedly drown her children because she was having an affair with a man who didn't want kids, then she spent a week pointing fingers at an imaginary black kidnapper.

I agree. I thought it the first time her name was brought up in the thread but wasn't positive I was remembering correctly and didn't have it in me to Google another horrific tragedy.

[icedcoffee]

Feb 2, 2023 13:50:09 GMT -5 janegold said:

I'm 39 and remember Andrea Yates. I've been thinking about her a lot, actually, because my memory is that she was fairly vilified (I'm aware that there is sadly plenty of that out there for Lindsay Clancy too) and I do NOT remember nearly as much discussion around postpartum health and PPP at the time. I've been wondering whether I was just less tuned into the postpartum mental health aspect at the time, being young, or if there was less societal understanding and compassion at the time.

I think because Andrea Yates was fairly religious if I'm not mistaken. I think Lindsay is super relatable because they're an adorable young family that seems like the rest of us.  

And Lindsay is white.  A POC wouldn't be getting as much compassion I am sure. 

[janegold]

Feb 2, 2023 14:20:10 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

Feb 2, 2023 13:50:09 GMT -5 janegold said:

I'm 39 and remember Andrea Yates. I've been thinking about her a lot, actually, because my memory is that she was fairly vilified (I'm aware that there is sadly plenty of that out there for Lindsay Clancy too) and I do NOT remember nearly as much discussion around postpartum health and PPP at the time. I've been wondering whether I was just less tuned into the postpartum mental health aspect at the time, being young, or if there was less societal understanding and compassion at the time.

I think because Andrea Yates was fairly religious if I'm not mistaken. I think Lindsay is super relatable because they're an adorable young family that seems like the rest of us.  

And Lindsay is white.  A POC wouldn't be getting as much compassion I am sure. 

Most definitely not.  I've been examining my own feelings about this a lot.  Have I been so affected by this because it's local to me?  Because my kids are around the same age?  Because they're a family that "looks" like mine in a town like mine?  

Same with the Ana Walshe murder that happened a month ago in a nearby town, and any other tragedy that strikes someone "like me."  I think it's human nature to relate to and pay more attention to things that feel familiar to you but it's not just a personal bias - it's completely systemic and ingrained throughout every aspect of our society: criminal justice, health care, media, education, social services, etc. 

[icedcoffee]

janegold, I've been checking myself a lot this week for sure.

[sonrisa]

Feb 2, 2023 13:50:09 GMT -5 janegold said:

 I do NOT remember nearly as much discussion around postpartum health and PPP at the time.

I do. But I had majored in psychology and my H (then boyfriend) had psych PhD and was studying medicine. I may have been around people who were more familiar with post partuum psychosis than average.  

I had mixed feelings about the movie Tully. While is touched on PPP, it suggested it's a sort of super power. 

[lo]

The name Susan Smith doesn’t belong anywhere near this thread. Totally not the same.

[basilosaurus]

I remember Andrea Yates, but not the others. I do remember her being vilified for a long time but then that it resulted in awareness and discussion about PPP