@TW: Boston area story of Infanticide/suicide

[imimahoney]

Feb 8, 2023 9:01:50 GMT -5 eddy said:

Even understanding the concept of psychosis it can be really hard to read the calculated steps that were taken. Now knowing more it is really a wrestle in my brain of academically understanding something, and my emotions. Many things are like this. But with details you do actually have to sit in the knowing, which is so uncomfortable.

Yes, this is where I'm at.

[letsgetweird]

Feb 8, 2023 0:56:02 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

It doesn't seem like a rush to judgement when it was reported early on that she was receiving extensive psychiatric care. Within the month before the incident she was inpatient and in intensive outpatient care, and prescribed numerous psychotropic medications.

Something was clearly going on. Maybe a rush to actual diagnosis, but not baseless given the age of her children.

We likely won't know actual answers for quite some time.

She clearly was mentally unwell but I'm not sure the situation 100% means she was in psychosis? I just don't want to assume and I will withhold judgment until more facts come out.

I think people are struggling to deal with the facts because the DA presented it as a premeditated killing. She googled how long it would take her husband to get to the restaurant and also called a pharmacy about a medicine for her kids (which her husband picked up). Personally I don't find this to be a smoking gun at all and there are innocent reasons why she could have made those google searches. They also alleged that when she woke up, the first thing she said was "do I need an attorney?"

I think she has gotten a lot of support as a white, college educated woman who seemingly had her shit together. We don't see the same support for someone like Erin Merdy, a black woman who also killed her 3 children recently. Her youngest was 3 months.

[sonrisa]

One thing to note: I see a lot of people conflating PPD and PPP. They aren't the same thing - just like depression and schizophrenia aren't the same thing.

[gretchenindisguise]

Feb 8, 2023 10:29:58 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

Feb 8, 2023 0:56:02 GMT -5 gretchenindisguise said:

It doesn't seem like a rush to judgement when it was reported early on that she was receiving extensive psychiatric care. Within the month before the incident she was inpatient and in intensive outpatient care, and prescribed numerous psychotropic medications.

Something was clearly going on. Maybe a rush to actual diagnosis, but not baseless given the age of her children.

We likely won't know actual answers for quite some time.

She clearly was mentally unwell but I'm not sure the situation 100% means she was in psychosis? I just don't want to assume and I will withhold judgment until more facts come out.

I think people are struggling to deal with the facts because the DA presented it as a premeditated killing. She googled how long it would take her husband to get to the restaurant and also called a pharmacy about a medicine for her kids (which her husband picked up). Personally I don't find this to be a smoking gun at all and there are innocent reasons why she could have made those google searches. They also alleged that when she woke up, the first thing she said was "do I need an attorney?"

I think she has gotten a lot of support as a white, college educated woman who seemingly had her shit together. We don't see the same support for someone like Erin Merdy, a black woman who also killed her 3 children recently. Her youngest was 3 months.

The bolded is absolutely true! Even in the NYT article linked it's mentioned. I think the answer is obviously, support for all vs removing support for the white mother, which I don't think is controversial on this board.

[gretchenindisguise]

Feb 8, 2023 10:54:21 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

One thing to note: I see a lot of people conflating PPD and PPP. They aren't the same thing - just like depression and schizophrenia aren't the same thing.

Or major depressive disorder with psychotic symptoms. 

All of which can be sufficient for plea of insanity.

[letsgetweird]

I'm not sure if this was mentioned earlier in the thread but she is paralyzed from the waist down. They did not say if they believe this is temporary or permanent paralysis.

[AJL]

Feb 8, 2023 12:15:42 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

I'm not sure if this was mentioned earlier in the thread but she is paralyzed from the waist down. They did not say if they believe this is temporary or permanent paralysis.

This was caused by her fall. I'm not sure what this has to do with her mental state at the time she killed her children or attempted to kill herself.

[AJL]

My two cents is that she had psychosis induced by her medications. I think she was experiencing depression but psychosis can occur in other ways from other causes.

I also don't see the children's medication or checking the maps on how far the restaurant was from home as having the relevance the prosecution wants it to. They want to paint with a murder one brush and I just don't see that.

And yes, she's a white woman with privilege and resources who is getting a lot of leeway for her actions where as Erin Merdy did not. But that's an indicator of our racist systems and white supremacist culture and equally horrific, both in the crime and the treatment of Merdy. But it has no bearing on whether Lindsay Clancy was mentally sound when she killed her children.

[karinothing]

I think it is also important to note that mental disorders can cause suicidal and homicidal ideation (and the respective acts) without psychosis. I don't know what the story was here. Maybe she had psychosis maybe she knew what she was doing is wrong and did it anyway. I doubt we will ever get a real story on that. 

I do think the outpouring of support has been interesting. We see men kill their families and we don't get this kind of support even though a fair percentage of those likely suffer from mental illness. I am thinking back to Matthew Coleman the guy who killed his kids after he feared they would grow into monsters after inheriting reptile DNA from their mom and he needed to save the world. Clearly this man (if we are to believe this story) was suffering from a mental break. We don't hear the same sympathy for him (note I am not saying he deserves sympathy, just that mental illness was clearly at play when he killed his children).

I think we find it initially more shocking when a woman kills her babies than we do a man so we assume something went horribly wrong for it to happen and provide her with the benefit of the doubt (at least when she is white and "normal")

[AJL]

I would have been more shocked of these stories before I had children. Having children, having had post partum depression and anxiety, has made me much less black and white on these situations.

[letsgetweird]

Feb 8, 2023 12:16:48 GMT -5 AJL said:

Feb 8, 2023 12:15:42 GMT -5 letsgetweird said:

I'm not sure if this was mentioned earlier in the thread but she is paralyzed from the waist down. They did not say if they believe this is temporary or permanent paralysis.

This was caused by her fall. I'm not sure what this has to do with her mental state at the time she killed her children or attempted to kill herself.

it has everything to do with it because she harmed herself and caused this injury in her suicide attempt.

[letsgetweird]

Feb 8, 2023 12:34:38 GMT -5 karinothing said:

I think it is also important to note that mental disorders can cause suicidal and homicidal ideation (and the respective acts) without psychosis. I don't know what the story was here. Maybe she had psychosis maybe she knew what she was doing is wrong and did it anyway. I doubt we will ever get a real story on that. 

I do think the outpouring of support has been interesting. We see men kill their families and we don't get this kind of support even though a fair percentage of those likely suffer from mental illness. I am thinking back to Matthew Coleman the guy who killed his kids after he feared they would grow into monsters after inheriting reptile DNA from their mom and he needed to save the world. Clearly this man (if we are to believe this story) was suffering from a mental break. We don't hear the same sympathy for him (note I am not saying he deserves sympathy, just that mental illness was clearly at play when he killed his children).

I think we find it initially more shocking when a woman kills her babies than we do a man so we assume something went horribly wrong for it to happen and provide her with the benefit of the doubt (at least when she is white and "normal")

very good point. As a society, we find it more shocking when a woman kills especially a mother.

[Pilsy]

What did you all think of her attorney? I know it's early, the defense isn't even developed, and that was a drop in the bucket when it comes to the legal proceedings; but when I watched yesterday, I couldn't help but think he's not a great fit here. To me, he seemed entitled, casual, and almost ill-prepared; I wondered if its because he's part of the old boys club. It seems like a female litigator would be a better choice under these circumstances.

Meanwhile, I read some comments (I know) and multiple people pointed out he succeeded by keeping her out of jail, so maybe my take is way off or it's accurate but irrelevant to his competence.

[sonrisa]

Feb 8, 2023 12:34:38 GMT -5 karinothing said:

We see men kill their families and we don't get this kind of support 

We have a long legal history of giving men a pass in different ways. The whole idea of "heat of passion" being a mitigating factor excused a lot of on going domestic violence. 

[shopgirl07]

Feb 8, 2023 13:41:25 GMT -5 Pilsy said:

What did you all think of her attorney? I know it's early, the defense isn't even developed, and that was a drop in the bucket when it comes to the legal proceedings; but when I watched yesterday, I couldn't help but think he's not a great fit here. To me, he seemed entitled, casual, and almost ill-prepared; I wondered if its because he's part of the old boys club. It seems like a female litigator would be a better choice under these circumstances.

Meanwhile, I read some comments (I know) and multiple people pointed out he succeeded by keeping her out of jail, so maybe my take is way off or it's accurate but irrelevant to his competence.

He’s probably the most famous defense attorney in the Boston area. He’s the go-to for all of the high profile cases. To me he comes off as the typical grandstanding, fame seeking defense attorney. Whether he actually helps or hurts her, I couldn’t say. But I always take what he says with a grain of salt.

[karinothing]

Feb 8, 2023 13:42:27 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Feb 8, 2023 12:34:38 GMT -5 karinothing said:

We see men kill their families and we don't get this kind of support 

We have a long legal history of giving men a pass in different ways. The whole idea of "heat of passion" being a mitigating factor excused a lot of on going domestic violence. 

Oh i 100% agree with that. I just find the treatment difference interesting when mental illness is at play in both cases (most men we can point to an affair or something but this case seemed unique)

[icedcoffee]

I read the reason Defense is going for an involuntary intoxication is because it would mean no jail or mental hospital time. Insanity would mean life in a mental hospital (is that the correct term? it seems wrong in my head for some reason.  psychiatric hospital?).

[sadie]

Feb 8, 2023 9:31:13 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

I'm also confused about her not actually being diagnosed with PPD. I assumed that any kind of anxiety, depression or psychosis within one year of delivery makes it "post-partum." Or maybe I'm just misunderstanding the sequence of events, especially with the NYT article above mentioning she left 5-day inpatient care in early January. 

There is often hesitation to officially document a mental health diagnosis in a patient chart, particularly in regards to confidentiality and safety of data; these diagnoses are left uncharted or the severity is played down in formal writeup. This could be a possible explanation for the lack of documented formal diagnosis.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8893630/

[basilosaurus]

Having had suicidal ideation, that she had plans and details surprises me not at all. These thoughts can come unbidden, unwanted, obsessively, at times in excruciating detail and imagery. To me that's not necessarily rational premeditation. I never even tipped over into active planning, but it was scary enough for psych holds.

I've never been pregnant, but I imagine if heightens everything to a massive degree. It's all just so traffic for every one involved.

[maudefindlay]

The prosecution presented an organized and detailed case, but they lack a motive and that to me points to she was suffering a mental health issue.

[mrshandy]

Feb 9, 2023 9:35:54 GMT -5 maudefindlay said:

The prosecution presented an organized and detailed case, but they lack a motive and that to me points to she was suffering a mental health issue.

Not a lawyer, but I watch and listen to too much true crime stuff. Technically, my understanding is that the prosecution is not required to provide any motive for crimes. The jury is not allowed to use no motive as a reason to acquit. However, this does not always prove to be the case. 

[starburst604]

Feb 8, 2023 12:21:09 GMT -5 AJL said:

My two cents is that she had psychosis induced by her medications. I think she was experiencing depression but psychosis can occur in other ways from other causes.

I also don't see the children's medication or checking the maps on how far the restaurant was from home as having the relevance the prosecution wants it to. They want to paint with a murder one brush and I just don't see that.

And yes, she's a white woman with privilege and resources who is getting a lot of leeway for her actions where as Erin Merdy did not. But that's an indicator of our racist systems and white supremacist culture and equally horrific, both in the crime and the treatment of Merdy. But it has no bearing on whether Lindsay Clancy was mentally sound when she killed her children.

I've been thinking a lot about those details. Why would she go to the lengths of calling CVS to make sure the stool softener she wanted for the kids was in stock if she didn't plan to ever use it? I don't think it's unusual to check how far away a restaurant is. She could have wondered if the restaurant was unreasonably far away to ask him to pick up from and put it into GPS to check. I do things like that all the time. I don't think it indicates her making a plan to do what she did. 

[dulcemariamar]

Feb 9, 2023 11:43:19 GMT -5 starburst604 said:

Feb 8, 2023 12:21:09 GMT -5 AJL said:

My two cents is that she had psychosis induced by her medications. I think she was experiencing depression but psychosis can occur in other ways from other causes.

I also don't see the children's medication or checking the maps on how far the restaurant was from home as having the relevance the prosecution wants it to. They want to paint with a murder one brush and I just don't see that.

And yes, she's a white woman with privilege and resources who is getting a lot of leeway for her actions where as Erin Merdy did not. But that's an indicator of our racist systems and white supremacist culture and equally horrific, both in the crime and the treatment of Merdy. But it has no bearing on whether Lindsay Clancy was mentally sound when she killed her children.

I've been thinking a lot about those details. Why would she go to the lengths of calling CVS to make sure the stool softener she wanted for the kids was in stock if she didn't plan to ever use it? I don't think it's unusual to check how far away a restaurant is. She could have wondered if the restaurant was unreasonably far away to ask him to pick up from and put it into GPS to check. I do things like that all the time. I don't think it indicates her making a plan to do what she did. 

I think calling to CVS actually sounds like she was planning on using the medication. If she just wanted to send him out of the house then she would just tell him to grab any random common medication and not bother calling the pharmacy to check. I don’t think there was anyway to guarantee that the husband wasn’t going to call her when he was out. I am surprised he didn’t check on her even though that wouldn’t have made a difference probably

[Pilsy]

Feb 9, 2023 13:20:30 GMT -5 dulcemariamar said:

Feb 9, 2023 11:43:19 GMT -5 starburst604 said:

I've been thinking a lot about those details. Why would she go to the lengths of calling CVS to make sure the stool softener she wanted for the kids was in stock if she didn't plan to ever use it? I don't think it's unusual to check how far away a restaurant is. She could have wondered if the restaurant was unreasonably far away to ask him to pick up from and put it into GPS to check. I do things like that all the time. I don't think it indicates her making a plan to do what she did. 

I think calling to CVS actually sounds like she was planning on using the medication. If she just wanted to send him out of the house then she would just tell him to grab any random common medication and not bother calling the pharmacy to check. I don’t think there was anyway to guarantee that the husband wasn’t going to call her when he was out. I am surprised he didn’t check on her even though that wouldn’t have made a difference probably

He did call her - not necessarily checking on her, but getting clarification on what to buy - around 18 minutes after leaving the house. She didn't answer at first but then called him back, and they spoke for 14 seconds. He said it sounded like she was in the middle of something then. When he got home, around 35 minutes later, it was all done, so it's possible she was engaged in harming the children when he called her. If (big if, I know), she was already hurting the children, it runs counter to the idea that she was still planning on using the meds she was actively guiding him through buying.

I really don't know if she planned it or not, and even if she did, it's still possible she was suffering from psychosis, right? The premeditation isn't a big gotcha if psychosis was in play.

mrshandy's point is something I'd never thought through, but it's a valid one to consider. Nonetheless, I wholeheartedly agree with maudefindlay re: mental illness. I mean, even if they end up saying she just didn't want to be responsible for her children, it still feels like mental gymnastics to deny this woman was struggling severely. How do you explain away all the therapy, meds, inpatient stay, etc?

The exact diagnoses (recorded or missed), magnitude, etc. aren't clear to me (could be PPP, but I don't know for sure because I'm not qualified to say, nor does the public have the details), and I wonder if we'll ever truly understand fully, but I feel like anyone who thinks she was absolutely fine is out in left field.

I want to learn more about the ins and outs of an involuntary intoxication defense. I mean, I understand the basics, but how does it take into consideration whether the defendant was also suffering from mental illness and the substances allegedly causing this involuntary intoxication were reasonably prescribed in response to the symptoms at hand? I don't understand well enough. 

Everything about this whole situation is so horrible and sad. 

[neeps]

Feb 9, 2023 13:53:22 GMT -5 Pilsy said:

I really don't know if she planned it or not, and even if she did, it's still possible she was suffering from psychosis, right? The premeditation isn't a big gotcha if psychosis was in play.

Andrea Yates filled her bathtub about a month before she actually drowned her children, planning to do it that day, but changed her mind. She also waited until her husband left because she knew he would prevent it. Then called the police afterward.

So to your point I think premeditation does not rule out psychosis.

[starburst604]

Feb 9, 2023 13:20:30 GMT -5 dulcemariamar said:

Feb 9, 2023 11:43:19 GMT -5 starburst604 said:

I've been thinking a lot about those details. Why would she go to the lengths of calling CVS to make sure the stool softener she wanted for the kids was in stock if she didn't plan to ever use it? I don't think it's unusual to check how far away a restaurant is. She could have wondered if the restaurant was unreasonably far away to ask him to pick up from and put it into GPS to check. I do things like that all the time. I don't think it indicates her making a plan to do what she did. 

I think calling to CVS actually sounds like she was planning on using the medication. If she just wanted to send him out of the house then she would just tell him to grab any random common medication and not bother calling the pharmacy to check. I don’t think there was anyway to guarantee that the husband wasn’t going to call her when he was out. I am surprised he didn’t check on her even though that wouldn’t have made a difference probably

Right, that's what I was getting at. Agree she would have just sent him off to buy it without calling to see if it was in stock if she was planning it all before he left. That would be my argument on that part as her attorney! (I am not anything close to an attorney). Not that premediation should mean she didn't have psychosis but it just seems like one more hurdle for the defense. 

[AJL]

Psychosis does not preclude planning to do harm. So yes, she absolutely could have been experiencing psychosis in planning and carrying out the deaths of her children.

[wise_rita]

Feb 8, 2023 14:32:36 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

I read the reason Defense is going for an involuntary intoxication is because it would mean no jail or mental hospital time. Insanity would mean life in a mental hospital (is that the correct term? it seems wrong in my head for some reason.  psychiatric hospital?).

OMFG there is a universe where she would be LET OUT INTO SOCIETY after this?!  Surely she of all people wouldn't want that.  Nor her husband, nor anybody.  There is no question she did this so...how can that be?

This woman was a L&D nurse.  I know she'll never go back to that, but I can't help but think what if she went after someone else's baby if she had been back to work.

[msmerymac]

Feb 14, 2023 9:11:23 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

Feb 8, 2023 14:32:36 GMT -5 icedcoffee said:

I read the reason Defense is going for an involuntary intoxication is because it would mean no jail or mental hospital time. Insanity would mean life in a mental hospital (is that the correct term? it seems wrong in my head for some reason.  psychiatric hospital?).

OMFG there is a universe where she would be LET OUT INTO SOCIETY after this?!  Surely she of all people wouldn't want that.  Nor her husband, nor anybody.  There is no question she did this so...how can that be?

This woman was a L&D nurse.  I know she'll never go back to that, but I can't help but think what if she went after someone else's baby if she had been back to work.

PPP doesn't manifest as someone just lusting after killing any infant they see. This was specific to her situation and she felt deep down that HER children would be better off not existing due to her mental state. (Now of course that means she wouldn't work in L&D, but there are a lot of situations that would preclude that.)

[carmenere]

Feb 14, 2023 9:17:02 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

Feb 14, 2023 9:11:23 GMT -5 wise_rita said:

OMFG there is a universe where she would be LET OUT INTO SOCIETY after this?!  Surely she of all people wouldn't want that.  Nor her husband, nor anybody.  There is no question she did this so...how can that be?

This woman was a L&D nurse.  I know she'll never go back to that, but I can't help but think what if she went after someone else's baby if she had been back to work.

PPP doesn't manifest as someone just lusting after killing any infant they see. This was specific to her situation and she felt deep down that HER children would be better off not existing due to her mental state. (Now of course that means she wouldn't work in L&D, but there are a lot of situations that would preclude that.)

QFT. The evidence presented in court will show whether this was the result of PPP, but based on what we know right now that still appears to be the cause. And we know that PPP is treatable and the psychosis isn't lifelong, so it's not always necessary for someone to remain institutionalized indefinitely. For example Andrea Yates is legally eligible for release (although she declines it, in part because she has a lifelong diagnosis of schizophrenia).

@wise_rita I get that we're all shocked and heartbroken, but the stigma is a huge reason many parents struggling with postpartum mental health (and many people struggling with mental health illness generally) don't get the help they need.