So I need counseling to be convinced to get married? Why is marriage the end all and be all? I'm not saying I don't want a close human relationship...
No one is advocating you get married. If you don't want to don't. Or just wait until you meet someone if ever that you want to have a lifelong commitment with and decide then. I never set out wanting to get married when I did. When I met my XH I thought I never wanted to live another day without him by my side so we decided then. Same with kids, I never set out wanting kids but when I met him I wanted to have his children and build a family with him. You don't really need to put the cart before the horse if you don't want to.
Post by bumpushounds on Aug 7, 2012 12:44:32 GMT -5
In addition to all of the other good points that have been made here, I wanted to touch on another aspect that I don't think has been mentioned yet. Yes, you can get a health care power of attorney, but it's only effective if it is accessible at the time that it is needed. Say you and your SO get in a car accident, and he is so badly injured that he is not in a position to make decisions regarding his treatment. When you get to the hospital, if you don't have that POA with you, you won't be able to make decisions for him, either. The hospital isn't going to just take your word for it that you are authorized to make health care decisions on his behalf if you aren't married. For this reason, some states have moved to create electronic registries of POAs and advance directives that are accessible to all health care providers- this creates a higher likelihood that an incapacitated person's wishes will be carried out.
The same problem occurred very frequently with organ donors, which is why most states have implemented some sort of designation on the driver's license for people who want to be organ donors, and why they started allowing health care providers access to the donor registry. Before that, the only way it could be 100% assured that an organ donor's wishes would be carried out would be if the person carried his or her donor registry card at all times.
There are benefits that come with marriage that you can't easily obtain just by having legal documents drawn up- going that route is going to be time-consuming and costly, and you still might have to jump through a lot of hoops to exercise the rights you think you are securing with a POA. There is a reason that gay people are fighting so hard for the right to be recognized as married in the eyes of the law- contrary to what some would have you believe, the marriage license is NOT just a piece of paper.
In addition to all of the other good points that have been made here, I wanted to touch on another aspect that I don't think has been mentioned yet. Yes, you can get a health care power of attorney, but it's only effective if it is accessible at the time that it is needed. Say you and your SO get in a car accident, and he is so badly injured that he is not in a position to make decisions regarding his treatment. When you get to the hospital, if you don't have that POA with you, you won't be able to make decisions for him, either. The hospital isn't going to just take your word for it that you are authorized to make health care decisions on his behalf if you aren't married. For this reason, some states have moved to create electronic registries of POAs and advance directives that are accessible to all health care providers- this creates a higher likelihood that an incapacitated person's wishes will be carried out.
This is an interesting point and I didn't realize this. I was wondering if hospitals check proof that someone is a spouse though. I mean could you just lie? Do they check your ID and if they do lots of married people have different last names. It's not like they ask for a marriage certificate. I know I went in for a routine surgery once and they found something else major and my husband at the time gave the go ahead for the additional surgery b/c I was under. I know he didn't have to show our marriage certificate. We do have the same last name though. Sorry, this is kind of random
Honestly, a lot of your statements contradict themselves. You say you're not avoiding marriage because you're afraid of being hurt, but then you say you're too scarred to even consider successful marriages. You also say you're not aware of successful marriages and reject the examples that are given to you. You go back to the issue of not wanting to deal with the legal issues that are involved in divorce, but it's been made abundantly clear that the legalities still exist within LTRs and may even be stickier.
IMO it's okay to go back and forth on these issues and try to sort them out, but I think this is something that counseling could help you with. Not to convince you to get married, but to hash out how you actually feel about relationships and marriage and why you feel that way. In the meantime, I think this is a bad time to decide on a hard-and-fast position on marriage because of the contradictory statements.
There are benefits that come with marriage that you can't easily obtain just by having legal documents drawn up- going that route is going to be time-consuming and costly, and you still might have to jump through a lot of hoops to exercise the rights you think you are securing with a POA. There is a reason that gay people are fighting so hard for the right to be recognized as married in the eyes of the law- contrary to what some would have you believe, the marriage license is NOT just a piece of paper.
Things you should also think about if you want marriage benefits but not the "non-benefits" (taxes and lawyers, which aren't necessarily saved by not getting married ANYWAY)-What about Social Security Survivors benefits? What if he dies on the job, you can't sue for Workers Comp unless you are a dependent/married, just being a girlfriend who had a big party won't work. What if he has no will or it can't be found? You get squat through intestacy. there are things a few legal papers can't get around.
If you didn't care or want any of the benefits of marriage, I would get it. However, you seem to want the legal benefits, the party, the ring, just not the word marriage and I don't get that. What is it about the word you don't like? You could end up in court due to a LTR break up AND you could pay more in taxes filing separately.
My parents are happily married--29 years and going strong. My paternal grandparents were happily married for probably 60 or more years. My maternal grandparents were happily married for just over 50 years (second marriage for him!). A great-uncle of mine signed his card congratulating me on my engagment to XFI "Best 72 years of my life!" referring to his marriage. BF's neighbors who we have brunch with every Sunday have been married 51 happy years (second marriage for him, too!).
Examples of happy marriages exist everywhere, if you're willing to see them.
Thanks for the optimistic examples but I think I'm already scarred a little too deep to really appreciate it
Which is all the more reason to consider counseling. You seem to be making decisions (or not) based on your past hurt. That's not a good position to be in.
In addition to all of the other good points that have been made here, I wanted to touch on another aspect that I don't think has been mentioned yet. Yes, you can get a health care power of attorney, but it's only effective if it is accessible at the time that it is needed. Say you and your SO get in a car accident, and he is so badly injured that he is not in a position to make decisions regarding his treatment. When you get to the hospital, if you don't have that POA with you, you won't be able to make decisions for him, either. The hospital isn't going to just take your word for it that you are authorized to make health care decisions on his behalf if you aren't married. For this reason, some states have moved to create electronic registries of POAs and advance directives that are accessible to all health care providers- this creates a higher likelihood that an incapacitated person's wishes will be carried out.
The same problem occurred very frequently with organ donors, which is why most states have implemented some sort of designation on the driver's license for people who want to be organ donors, and why they started allowing health care providers access to the donor registry. Before that, the only way it could be 100% assured that an organ donor's wishes would be carried out would be if the person carried his or her donor registry card at all times.
There are benefits that come with marriage that you can't easily obtain just by having legal documents drawn up- going that route is going to be time-consuming and costly, and you still might have to jump through a lot of hoops to exercise the rights you think you are securing with a POA. There is a reason that gay people are fighting so hard for the right to be recognized as married in the eyes of the law- contrary to what some would have you believe, the marriage license is NOT just a piece of paper.
Hmmm...this is interesteing..I wish you would have shared your input sooner maybe my post woud have stayed on the subject( of my original questions)! Thank you for this info
Honestly, a lot of your statements contradict themselves. You say you're not avoiding marriage because you're afraid of being hurt, but then you say you're too scarred to even consider successful marriages. You also say you're not aware of successful marriages and reject the examples that are given to you. You go back to the issue of not wanting to deal with the legal issues that are involved in divorce, but it's been made abundantly clear that the legalities still exist within LTRs and may even be stickier.
IMO it's okay to go back and forth on these issues and try to sort them out, but I think this is something that counseling could help you with. Not to convince you to get married, but to hash out how you actually feel about relationships and marriage and why you feel that way. In the meantime, I think this is a bad time to decide on a hard-and-fast position on marriage because of the contradictory statements.
Okay I will explain it again... Honestly, a lot of your statements contradict themselves. You say you're not avoiding marriage because you're afraid of being hurt, but then you say you're too scarred to even consider successful marriages. The "non benefits" of divorce have scarred me from considering the "minority" (in my eyes) of successful marriages
You also say you're not aware of successful marriages and reject the examples that are given to you. Again it is because it is a minority, in my eyes
You go back to the issue of not wanting to deal with the legal issues that are involved in divorce, but it's been made abundantly clear that the legalities still exist within LTRs and may even be stickier. I have come to realize that from pp posts and I now understand. This is something I wasn't aware of when I first posted this thread
Did you get this idea from the book? What is the book about?
This book is by the "eat, pray, love" author. Since I bought she was a self-involved, annoying navel gazer, I couldn't take the second book seriously. I tried.
I've never read eat, pray, love..I'm still not interested in reading it...
There are benefits that come with marriage that you can't easily obtain just by having legal documents drawn up- going that route is going to be time-consuming and costly, and you still might have to jump through a lot of hoops to exercise the rights you think you are securing with a POA. There is a reason that gay people are fighting so hard for the right to be recognized as married in the eyes of the law- contrary to what some would have you believe, the marriage license is NOT just a piece of paper.
Things you should also think about if you want marriage benefits but not the "non-benefits" (taxes and lawyers, which aren't necessarily saved by not getting married ANYWAY)-What about Social Security Survivors benefits? What if he dies on the job, you can't sue for Workers Comp unless you are a dependent/married, just being a girlfriend who had a big party won't work. What if he has no will or it can't be found? You get squat through intestacy. there are things a few legal papers can't get around.
Thanks for the optimistic examples but I think I'm already scarred a little too deep to really appreciate it
Which is all the more reason to consider counseling. You seem to be making decisions (or not) based on your past hurt. That's not a good position to be in.
Post by wrathofkuus on Aug 7, 2012 13:15:39 GMT -5
Why not just have transient (yet still deep and important) romances, but have a close friend or family member as your life insurance beneficiary and POA in case you can't make your own medical decisions?
There are benefits that come with marriage that you can't easily obtain just by having legal documents drawn up- going that route is going to be time-consuming and costly, and you still might have to jump through a lot of hoops to exercise the rights you think you are securing with a POA. There is a reason that gay people are fighting so hard for the right to be recognized as married in the eyes of the law- contrary to what some would have you believe, the marriage license is NOT just a piece of paper.
Things you should also think about if you want marriage benefits but not the "non-benefits" (taxes and lawyers, which aren't necessarily saved by not getting married ANYWAY)-What about Social Security Survivors benefits? What if he dies on the job, you can't sue for Workers Comp unless you are a dependent/married, just being a girlfriend who had a big party won't work. What if he has no will or it can't be found? You get squat through intestacy. there are things a few legal papers can't get around.
Those are things to consider...thanks for staying in line with my original questions...
Honestly, missbetty, throughout this post you seem to pull out the comments that are convenient for you to use, and anything you don't agree with or that doesn't support your point you either ignore or say, "This is how I feel and that's that." But there are a ton of underlying things in here that scream that you aren't in a good place to be making any major relationship decisions right now. Case in point, you say you don't want to get married because of x, y and z, but then when people point out the flip side of those items it is obvious you haven't really thought about them thoroughly (by your own admission). You wouldn't by a house without researching or simply by reading a fiction (yes based on her life, but not 100% truth) story about buying a house. So why make such a big statement about relationships and marriage without really doing the research?
Why not just have transient (yet still deep and important) romances, but have a close friend or family member as your life insurance beneficiary and POA in case you can't make your own medical decisions?
Ummm because that's not what I want 8-D I would want my SO to be able to make my medical decisions for me if I was unconscious and vice versa not a family member or close friend..my SO would be my closest/best friend anyway...
Honestly, missbetty, throughout this post you seem to pull out the comments that are convenient for you to use, and anything you don't agree with or that doesn't support your point you either ignore or say, "This is how I feel and that's that." But there are a ton of underlying things in here that scream that you aren't in a good place to be making any major relationship decisions right now. Case in point, you say you don't want to get married because of x, y and z, but then when people point out the flip side of those items it is obvious you haven't really thought about them thoroughly (by your own admission). You wouldn't by a house without researching or simply by reading a fiction (yes based on her life, but not 100% truth) story about buying a house. So why make such a big statement about relationships and marriage without really doing the research?
WTF? What big statement ?I'm not CNN or MSNBC, I'm on a damn proboard talking about my "thoughts"...I haven't made any final decisions..Hell I'm not even in a long term relationship! Geesh people I am discussing.. and my freakin original post was a question not an epiphany!
Honestly, missbetty, throughout this post you seem to pull out the comments that are convenient for you to use, and anything you don't agree with or that doesn't support your point you either ignore or say, "This is how I feel and that's that." But there are a ton of underlying things in here that scream that you aren't in a good place to be making any major relationship decisions right now. Case in point, you say you don't want to get married because of x, y and z, but then when people point out the flip side of those items it is obvious you haven't really thought about them thoroughly (by your own admission). You wouldn't by a house without researching or simply by reading a fiction (yes based on her life, but not 100% truth) story about buying a house. So why make such a big statement about relationships and marriage without really doing the research?
WTF? What big statement ?I'm not CNN or MSNBC, I'm on a damn proboard talking about my "thoughts"...I haven't made any final decisions..Hell I'm not even in a long term relationship! Geesh people I am discussing.. and my freakin original post was a question not an epiphany!
You start your OP by stating that reading Committed has strengthened your views about not wanting to get married again. Then you talk about your ideas to have a ceremony and a ring and be a pretty princess and the legalities you want v. the ones you don't. I'd say that's a pretty big statement. But then when you are questioned about these things, you can't give a straight answer and use only stats that you feel support your position (even after those stats have been updated with reference sources). I'd say that's making a pretty big statement. And if you want to post a question here, you are right ... it is proboards ... so people are going to chime in with all of their opinions regarding said original question. That's how this works. So if you are going to talk in circles and put things that have little factual basis, you need to be prepared to engage in that discussion thoroughly.
Op, you keep saying "in my eyes". You are not entitled to your own facts. There is reality, then there are your eyes, which are distorting reality. Then you create theories and plans based on your warped view of things. Can you see how this is problematic?
Let's say it was 5 degrees outside, but in my eyes it is 90 degrees. So I go outside wearing shorts and a tank top... Well, my eyes can't override reality and I can get majorly sick by choosing to act on my (incorrect) eyes instead of reality.
Do you understand that if you do wear shorts in 5 degree weather I am not going to get frost bite.... so that means you can do whatever the hell you want with your body and life? Which is what I can do IF I decide to not get married?
WTF? What big statement ?I'm not CNN or MSNBC, I'm on a damn proboard talking about my "thoughts"...I haven't made any final decisions..Hell I'm not even in a long term relationship! Geesh people I am discussing.. and my freakin original post was a question not an epiphany!
You start your OP by stating that reading Committed has strengthened your views about not wanting to get married again. Then you talk about your ideas to have a ceremony and a ring and be a pretty princess and the legalities you want v. the ones you don't. I'd say that's a pretty big statement. But then when you are questioned about these things, you can't give a straight answer and use only stats that you feel support your position (even after those stats have been updated with reference sources). I'd say that's making a pretty big statement. And if you want to post a question here, you are right ... it is proboards ... so people are going to chime in with all of their opinions regarding said original question. That's how this works. So if you are going to talk in circles and put things that have little factual basis, you need to be prepared to engage in that discussion thoroughly.
Sorry you don't think I've responded ENOUGH to make it thorough...so I guess you're really not going to like that I am done responding to this post that won't EVER end!, huh?
1. If I read the term "non benefits" one more time, I fear I will have a stroke and then bleed out of my eyes. To death.
2. No one's really disputing your right to get married or not get married or kind of pretend get married or whatever. People are questioning your logic, because it's skewed, and because a lot of what you say is contradictory. That's where the counseling suggestions come in.
3. Forgive me for prying, but if I'm remembering your story correctly, I don't see where the poor attitude towards marriage is coming from. Am I correct in recalling that you aren't divorced, that you were in a broken engagement, and that you claimed to have never been attracted to the guy? If that's the case, I'm sure it wasn't fun. I'm sure it sucked and was extremely difficult. But you dodged a bullet; you weren't burned. I'm confused about why you're as jaded as this post makes you sound.
1. If I read the term "non benefits" one more time, I fear I will have a stroke and then bleed out of my eyes. To death.
2. No one's really disputing your right to get married or not get married or kind of pretend get married or whatever. People are questioning your logic, because it's skewed, and because a lot of what you say is contradictory. That's where the counseling suggestions come in.
3. Forgive me for prying, but if I'm remembering your story correctly, I don't see where the poor attitude towards marriage is coming from. Am I correct in recalling that you aren't divorced, that you were in a broken engagement, and that you claimed to have never been attracted to the guy? If that's the case, I'm sure it wasn't fun. I'm sure it sucked and was extremely difficult. But you dodged a bullet; you weren't burned. I'm confused about why you're as jaded as this post makes you sound.
Why not just have transient (yet still deep and important) romances, but have a close friend or family member as your life insurance beneficiary and POA in case you can't make your own medical decisions?
Ummm because that's not what I want I would want my SO to be able to make my medical decisions for me if I was unconscious and vice versa not a family member or close friend..my SO would be my closest/best friend anyway...
You make no sense. This is what marriage is. Which, evidently, you don't want. And do want.
Pull yourself together, THEN think about attaching to someone else.
Ummm because that's not what I want I would want my SO to be able to make my medical decisions for me if I was unconscious and vice versa not a family member or close friend..my SO would be my closest/best friend anyway...
You make no sense. This is what marriage is. Which, evidently, you don't want. And do want.
Pull yourself together, THEN think about attaching to someone else.
:heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: :heart: lurve kuus
Ummm because that's not what I want I would want my SO to be able to make my medical decisions for me if I was unconscious and vice versa not a family member or close friend..my SO would be my closest/best friend anyway...
You make no sense. This is what marriage is. Which, evidently, you don't want. And do want.
Pull yourself together, THEN think about attaching to someone else.
Seriously- You-"I don't want to get married due to the non-benefits" everyone "umm...WTF is a non-bnefit" You-"They are the non-benefits of marriage" Everyone-"That's not an explanation, do you mean taxes and lawyers?" You-"yes, but I want all of the benefits too, how do I do that?" Everyone-"You get married. If you want all the legal aspects of marriage without the marriage lawyers would get involved anyway AND there are things you can't get without marriage" You-"But Most marriages are failures, even if they are still married, they ALL cheat or are miserable, so I just want a relationship-Here are old statistics to prove it" Everyone-"Uhhhh, not every marriage ends in divorce or misery. Here are the actual statistics to prove it. Plus, you can be just as miserable in just a dating relationship, WTF is wrong with you? Get counseling" You-"I'm right, you're wrong, all marriages are awful. Besides, this is not what I asked!" *Takes ball and goes home*
You make no sense. This is what marriage is. Which, evidently, you don't want. And do want.
Pull yourself together, THEN think about attaching to someone else.
Seriously- You-"I don't want to get married due to the non-benefits" everyone "umm...WTF is a non-bnefit" You-"They are the non-benefits of marriage" Everyone-"That's not an explanation, do you mean taxes and lawyers?" You-"yes, but I want all of the benefits too, how do I do that?" Everyone-"You get married. If you want all the legal aspects of marriage without the marriage lawyers would get involved anyway AND there are things you can't get without marriage" You-"But Most marriages are failures, even if they are still married, they ALL cheat or are miserable, so I just want a relationship-Here are old statistics to prove it" Everyone-"Uhhhh, not every marriage ends in divorce or misery. Here are the actual statistics to prove it. Plus, you can be just as miserable in just a dating relationship, WTF is wrong with you? Get counseling" You-"I'm right, you're wrong, all marriages are awful. Besides, this is not what I asked!" *Takes ball and goes home*
Seriously- You-"I don't want to get married due to the non-benefits" everyone "umm...WTF is a non-bnefit" You-"They are the non-benefits of marriage" Everyone-"That's not an explanation, do you mean taxes and lawyers?" You-"yes, but I want all of the benefits too, how do I do that?" Everyone-"You get married. If you want all the legal aspects of marriage without the marriage lawyers would get involved anyway AND there are things you can't get without marriage" You-"But Most marriages are failures, even if they are still married, they ALL cheat or are miserable, so I just want a relationship-Here are old statistics to prove it" Everyone-"Uhhhh, not every marriage ends in divorce or misery. Here are the actual statistics to prove it. Plus, you can be just as miserable in just a dating relationship, WTF is wrong with you? Get counseling" You-"I'm right, you're wrong, all marriages are awful. Besides, this is not what I asked!" *Takes ball and goes home*
Seriously- You-"I don't want to get married due to the non-benefits" everyone "umm...WTF is a non-bnefit" You-"They are the non-benefits of marriage" Everyone-"That's not an explanation, do you mean taxes and lawyers?" You-"yes, but I want all of the benefits too, how do I do that?" Everyone-"You get married. If you want all the legal aspects of marriage without the marriage lawyers would get involved anyway AND there are things you can't get without marriage" You-"But Most marriages are failures, even if they are still married, they ALL cheat or are miserable, so I just want a relationship-Here are old statistics to prove it" Everyone-"Uhhhh, not every marriage ends in divorce or misery. Here are the actual statistics to prove it. Plus, you can be just as miserable in just a dating relationship, WTF is wrong with you? Get counseling" You-"I'm right, you're wrong, all marriages are awful. Besides, this is not what I asked!" *Takes ball and goes home*
This is one of the best thread summaries I have ever read.
missbetty - based on how your posts (not just this one) are all over the place, I really really hope you get into counseling.
Seriously- You-"I don't want to get married due to the non-benefits" everyone "umm...WTF is a non-bnefit" You-"They are the non-benefits of marriage" Everyone-"That's not an explanation, do you mean taxes and lawyers?" You-"yes, but I want all of the benefits too, how do I do that?" Everyone-"You get married. If you want all the legal aspects of marriage without the marriage lawyers would get involved anyway AND there are things you can't get without marriage" You-"But Most marriages are failures, even if they are still married, they ALL cheat or are miserable, so I just want a relationship-Here are old statistics to prove it" Everyone-"Uhhhh, not every marriage ends in divorce or misery. Here are the actual statistics to prove it. Plus, you can be just as miserable in just a dating relationship, WTF is wrong with you? Get counseling" You-"I'm right, you're wrong, all marriages are awful. Besides, this is not what I asked!" *Takes ball and goes home*
This is one of the best thread summaries I have ever read.
missbetty - based on how your posts (not just this one) are all over the place, I really really hope you get into counseling.
Ditto. I've really been trying to be kind, but my left eyebrow seems to be perpetually raised when I read her posts.