I think, at least for me personally, the marker is that I am going out with someone who is self sufficient (ie. has a job and makes a decent wage). I wouldn't want to date someone who didn't have enough money to go to dinner. And if I am asked to go to dinner (romantically), I expect the one who asked me out to pay.
Perhaps. But then would you have different rules for dating a medical student who has no money now but has high earning potential? And while I understand that money and earning power is a huge factor in who people date I'm not sure it *should* be the only one or that it should be one that women have and men don't. While I did marry someone who out earned me it wasn't a priority.
I get that people are never internally consistent but set paying for a date as a bar for men and only men I think people are really not examining the deep double standard it presents.
Medical students have money. Even if it's a little bit. Plan for a cheaper date or save for a more expensive one. We all have to make sacrifices, lol.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
Look, I don't want to go out with a guy who can't afford his own dinner or mine occasionally, either. But I can also afford my dinner and his and why not contribute? Why assume that my ability to pay for things is a non-factor to him? He might also be looking for someone who is self-sufficient.
It goes both ways, IMO. If I ask someone out, then I am planning to pay. Because I planned it that way. I saw you, I liked you, I wanted to get to know you, and so I asked you out keeping in mind that I am the one who is taking up your time so I will offer to pay for dinner if you give me your time.
The same thoughts should run through the mind of the person who asks me out.
I don't see how this is not something that is easy to understand.
That is perfectly easy to understand, and not really what I'm talking about.
It's the previous poster that said paying was a way to impress her, and the argument that the wage gap exists so men should pay, and the few who said they offer to pay, but if they man accepts there is no second date that I'm questioning here.
It goes both ways, IMO. If I ask someone out, then I am planning to pay. Because I planned it that way. I saw you, I liked you, I wanted to get to know you, and so I asked you out keeping in mind that I am the one who is taking up your time so I will offer to pay for dinner if you give me your time.
The same thoughts should run through the mind of the person who asks me out.
I don't see how this is not something that is easy to understand.
That is perfectly easy to understand, and not really what I'm talking about.
It's the previous poster that said paying was a way to impress her, and the argument that the wage gap exists so men should pay, and the few who said they offer to pay, but if they man accepts there is no second date that I'm questioning here.
But, the two go hand in hand. I'm expecting you to do things a certain way and if you don't, bye.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
Perhaps. But then would you have different rules for dating a medical student who has no money now but has high earning potential? And while I understand that money and earning power is a huge factor in who people date I'm not sure it *should* be the only one or that it should be one that women have and men don't. While I did marry someone who out earned me it wasn't a priority.
I get that people are never internally consistent but set paying for a date as a bar for men and only men I think people are really not examining the deep double standard it presents.
I have examined it in the context of the history of relationships with black men and women which we have told you sometimes involve different issues regarding power and worth and so on than white relationships. After that examination I have concluded that if a man asks me out, he should plan a date within his budget and pay for it. I am good with that position.
Thank you. Like that Taco place I wanted to take you guys. The Tacos are between 1.10-2.20 a piece, and the food is delicious. And heyjude gave it her visual stamp of approval!!
I think expecting a man to pay reinforces the idea that men are the breadwinners. And that idea is one of the reasons why historically men's wages are higher than women's.
I would expect it even if a woman asked me out. I don't discriminate.
This is interesting.
I've been wondering how this plays out on same-sex dates.
I think, at least for me personally, the marker is that I am going out with someone who is self sufficient (ie. has a job and makes a decent wage). I wouldn't want to date someone who didn't have enough money to go to dinner. And if I am asked to go to dinner (romantically), I expect the one who asked me out to pay.
Perhaps. But then would you have different rules for dating a medical student who has no money now but has high earning potential? And while I understand that money and earning power is a huge factor in who people date I'm not sure it *should* be the only one or that it should be one that women have and men don't. While I did marry someone who out earned me it wasn't a priority.
I get that people are never internally consistent but set paying for a date as a bar for men and only men I think people are really not examining the deep double standard it presents.
As my uncle would say - potential is a crap shoot. Some folks make it and others don't.
Lemme say this - I'm not about to sit in the dark. I need you to bring some coins into this. When I was dating, I discovered that I simply could not deal with people trying to reach their potential. I needed you to be self-sufficient. I'm not footing an extra bill. So, I married someone who was financially stable because - I don't care what anyone says - you are not surviving on Love and Wish Sandwiches. Holla at me when your power company accepts payments of Love is All We Need. Nope.
Now - that's me - on the flip side, my H was the same way. The fact that I was self-sufficient was equally important to him. We went in this thing with the understanding that we are and will be a two income earning family. If I say I want to SAH tomorrow - there is going to be a problem because it was NOT in our discussions of what we anticipate for our lives to be. I'm cool with that because as 1234FIF! said, we decided all this and got married in the sunset together.
Post by pedanticwench on Oct 16, 2015 13:10:57 GMT -5
And there is something really bothering me about what I feel is a "poor you" attitude towards men who ask women out. I just can't even begin to feel sorry for men in that regard.
I have all the books I could need, and what more could I need than books? I shall only engage in commerce if books are the coin. -- Catherynne M. Valente
I have examined it in the context of the history of relationships with black men and women which we have told you sometimes involve different issues regarding power and worth and so on than white relationships. After that examination I have concluded that if a man asks me out, he should plan a date within his budget and pay for it. I am good with that position.
Thank you. Like that Taco place I wanted to take you guys. The Tacos are between 1.10-2.20 a piece, and the food is delicious. And heyjude gave it her visual stamp of approval!!
Man I thought I was being hauled to the mat again over another feminist issue I haven't responded to.
I'm just wondering why we have to read into everything so much. If I want a man to pay the bill I am indirectly causing income inequality? For Pete's sake. Some women just like a gentleman. That's it. There really isn't more to it than that.
LOL You know I had to read that question twice, like ... huh, in what world would this be happening to me?
It's been damn near 10 years, and Mr. Kirkette still asks, "May I take you out tonight?" a few times a week. I say sure, and then leave my wallet at home, because why would I need it?
He needs to ask me out because it's 100% not in my personality to ask. So that's going to have to be established from the beginning or it's simply not going to work.
Just because he doesn't pay doesn't make him a bad guy, just not the kind of guy I want. I don't need a man to provide for me, chances are good that I will out earn him, but he needs to pick up the tab for the first date, after that I'll make sure I contribute in one way or another. I want a more old fashioned kind of guy, I want him to pay, I want my door held opened, and help with my coat. While I don't think I've ever claimed to have a feminist card, I'll go ahead and turn it in.
I'm just wondering why we have to read into everything so much. If I want a man to pay the bill I am indirectly causing income inequality? For Pete's sake. Some women just like a gentleman. That's it. There really isn't more to it than that.
We aren't talking about what men WANT to do. We're talking about almost near universal expectation that men pay for women when they are dating. I understand the racial and cultural issue at place here and that not all women see romantic equality as key to their personal version of feminism. I only argue that the expectation should be examined. Boardroom and bedroom equality don't have to go hand in hand. It does for me, but not for many people it appears.
Is this the right place to admit that H and I started dating when I got him drunk (at a party at which neither of us paid for the alcohol) and then took him home with me? Free to both of us, and it's worked out for 15 years so far!
I am shaking my head at those of you who wouldn't go on a second date because a guy accepted YOUR offer of paying half. That's just shitty communication. Don't offer if you're not willing.
I don't always insist on splitting dates exactly. If they guy gets dinner, I'll get the movie tickets or the drinks at the bar later, etc. Begin as you intend to go on and all that. I would not expect a guy to pay for everything in a relationship so I don't date that way.
I can't quite put my finger on why the insistence that the guy must pay to try to impress bothers me so much, but I think it stems from it seeming like woman are weaker or less able to pay or need someone to take care of them.
The guy is supposed to impress me by paying? And I'm supposed to impress him by being pretty? Being arm candy? Hell no.
I suppose the difference is your second paragraph. I begin as I intend to go. I'm not buying my date dinner nor am I buying H dinner. I might treat him once in a blue moon say on his birthday but otherwise....no. He's not impressing me by paying nor am I impressing him by looking cute. I woke up like this, lol. Just kidding. Seriously though, I look good for me and because I don't like going outside (especially on a date) looking busted.
If I have to pay half that will be the last date. Kick me out if the feminist movement if you like. Take my independent woman card. I'll be over here sipping on my free (to me) drink.
Does this mean you and your H keep separate finances? Or is it just that you like him to be the one who actually gets out the wallet and pays out of your joint bank account?
I'm just wondering why we have to read into everything so much. If I want a man to pay the bill I am indirectly causing income inequality? For Pete's sake. Some women just like a gentleman. That's it. There really isn't more to it than that.
We aren't talking about what men WANT to do. We're talking about almost near universal expectation that men pay for women when they are dating. I understand the racial and cultural issue at place here and that not all women see romantic equality as key to their personal version of feminism. I only argue that the expectation should be examined. Boardroom and bedroom equality don't have to go hand in hand. It does for me, but not for many people it appears.
It reminds me of other random traditions that we don't really need to read into. Like, I had my father walk me down the aisle when I got married. It wasn't because I believe I was his property and needed to be handed pff to my husband. It was just a tradition that I looked forward to with my dad and enjoyed having part of my wedding. I get the roots of the tradition, but we don't really need to read into it that far. Men paying for the date is the same thing. It's just a tradition that is courteous and some women like. Doesn't mean that at the first date when paid for they want to sign over their right to have a career. It's just a nice gesture that has historically shown a man has good manners.
And boo hoo to the men who think it isn't fair. Life isn't fair. It's not fair that if the date goes well and years down the road we end up married and pregnant, I'm going to spend years puking and leaking milk and getting stretch marks all over my body while he can drink beer and eat raw cheese, but that's how the world works. Man up and Pay for my dinner and feel blessed you don't have to bleed once a month.
i think i bristle with the "no i dont ask men out, they ask me" line of thinking b/c implied in there is that you dont need to ask men out b/c you are good enough to not to have to. so if a woman has to ask, she wasn't enough to get it on her own.
IDK if that even makes sense.
its like the GIRLS threads we have had here and that white posters can totally relate to how that whole self doubt thing the girls have while black posters (i remember NitaX specifically) saying she never felt that.
Or they are also looking for the personality characteristic in which a man wants and/or has the confidence to ask you out? Just something else on the mental checklist to see if we are compatible.
I don't judge anyone who wants to pay or wants to split checks. Logically, I totally understand how that could even make someone a "better feminist" than me. I'm okay with that, but picking up tabs is just not how I want to live. I never want to be with someone who thinks I'm the girlfriend or wife with whom he may eventually have separate finances and split bills, because that's not who I am. We talked about this before on MM, but I'm not the kind of woman who could have a SAHH either. H takes his fun money out every week and I handle everything else. If he wasn't my own beloved, I would laugh or cry at him. It may not be equal, it may not even be fair, but I need the financial power in the relationship on all counts. So no, I am not paying for anything while dating, at times, I may not even being earning (I always reserve the right to quit), but I am still the boss of it lol. A man who would let me pick up a check is not going to be a part of the dynamic I need to happy long-term. But like I always say, whatever works for anyone else, great for them! We all have determine our comfort levels and boundaries, and just like I'm not comfortable going Dutch, I totally respect that someone else isn't comfortable not going Dutch.
We aren't talking about what men WANT to do. We're talking about almost near universal expectation that men pay for women when they are dating. I understand the racial and cultural issue at place here and that not all women see romantic equality as key to their personal version of feminism. I only argue that the expectation should be examined. Boardroom and bedroom equality don't have to go hand in hand. It does for me, but not for many people it appears.
It reminds me of other random traditions that we don't really need to read into. Like, I had my father walk me down the aisle when I got married. It wasn't because I believe I was his property and needed to be handed pff to my husband. It was just a tradition that I looked forward to with my dad and enjoyed having part of my wedding. I get the roots of the tradition, but we don't really need to read into it that far. Men paying for the date is the same thing. It's just a tradition that is courteous and some women like. Doesn't mean that at the first date when paid for they want to sign over their right to have a career. It's just a nice gesture that has historically shown a man has good manners.
And boo hoo to the men who think it isn't fair. Life isn't fair. It's not fair that if the date goes well and years down the road we end up married and pregnant, I'm going to spend years puking and leaking milk and getting stretch marks all over my body while he can drink beer and eat raw cheese, but that's how the world works. Man up and Pay for my dinner and feel blessed you don't have to bleed once a month.
I also dislike that tradition, and walked down the aisle with both of my parents. I'm working on my consistency with respect to defying tradition!
We aren't talking about what men WANT to do. We're talking about almost near universal expectation that men pay for women when they are dating. I understand the racial and cultural issue at place here and that not all women see romantic equality as key to their personal version of feminism. I only argue that the expectation should be examined. Boardroom and bedroom equality don't have to go hand in hand. It does for me, but not for many people it appears.
It reminds me of other random traditions that we don't really need to read into. Like, I had my father walk me down the aisle when I got married. It wasn't because I believe I was his property and needed to be handed pff to my husband. It was just a tradition that I looked forward to with my dad and enjoyed having part of my wedding. I get the roots of the tradition, but we don't really need to read into it that far. Men paying for the date is the same thing. It's just a tradition that is courteous and some women like. Doesn't mean that at the first date when paid for they want to sign over their right to have a career. It's just a nice gesture that has historically shown a man has good manners.
And boo hoo to the men who think it isn't fair. Life isn't fair. It's not fair that if the date goes well and years down the road we end up married and pregnant, I'm going to spend years puking and leaking milk and getting stretch marks all over my body while he can drink beer and eat raw cheese, but that's how the world works. Man up and Pay for my dinner and feel blessed you don't have to bleed once a month.
I walked down the aisle alone. You don't look deeply at traditions that permeate that our society but that doesn't mean others take a different path.
Men paying seems very much wrapped in the gentlemen/lady concept we talked at length about in the other post.
Post by underwaterrhymes on Oct 16, 2015 14:11:45 GMT -5
When I was dating, I always offered to pay half on the first date. I rarely had anyone take me up on it, but if they paid, then I insisted on paying for the next date if there was one.
And, in fact, H quit his job shortly after we started dating and I paid for all of our dates for awhile. All of my friends liked him, but thought I was crazy.
Not that it matters because we share a bank account so it's our money, but he makes quite a bit more than I do now.
I am shaking my head at those of you who wouldn't go on a second date because a guy accepted YOUR offer of paying half. That's just shitty communication. Don't offer if you're not willing.
I don't always insist on splitting dates exactly. If they guy gets dinner, I'll get the movie tickets or the drinks at the bar later, etc. Begin as you intend to go on and all that. I would not expect a guy to pay for everything in a relationship so I don't date that way.
I can't quite put my finger on why the insistence that the guy must pay to try to impress bothers me so much, but I think it stems from it seeming like woman are weaker or less able to pay or need someone to take care of them.
The guy is supposed to impress me by paying? And I'm supposed to impress him by being pretty? Being arm candy? Hell no.
I'm kind of here. I'm out of the dating pool, but I'm a grown woman and I earn a good living, and I wouldn't date a man who wasn't also a grown ass adult with a job. There isn't really anything impressive to me about a man paying the bill, given that I can certainly do that on my own and then some. And if I'm being completely honest, I would probably not really be into someone who picked a pretty $$$$ restaurant for our first date anyhow, so it would be even less impressive for me.
I generally subscribe to the whomever did the asking and planning does the paying theory on this, though.
Oh, and I would not ask a man out for similar reasons. It's all about the future dynamic to me. I firmly believe that in every romantic relationship, there is a chaser and an eluder. Someone is doing the chasing, whether that means the person who asks the other out, the person who pays the tab, the person who makes the first move, the person who calls more often, the person who proposes, the person who apologizes more. I do not believe it's ever 50/50. It might be 51/49, but not 50/50. I am not going to be the chaser. Ever. I don't even get interested in men who aren't pursuing me...tenaciously! Unless you think I'm the best thing since cheese , what is the draw? What separates a man from the billions of other men if not for his admiration of me? I just don't get it. I have a friend who is always telling me about some guy she likes. K. Same spiel every time. Tell me about the one who likes you. Then, I will get excited.
i think i bristle with the "no i dont ask men out, they ask me" line of thinking b/c implied in there is that you dont need to ask men out b/c you are good enough to not to have to. so if a woman has to ask, she wasn't enough to get it on her own.
IDK if that even makes sense.
its like the GIRLS threads we have had here and that white posters can totally relate to how that whole self doubt thing the girls have while black posters (i remember NitaX specifically) saying she never felt that.
I agree.
Look, I think I am pretty hot and a hell of a lot of fun. I got asked on plenty of dates, but if i wanted to go out with someone, I asked. No one ever said no.
ETA - it's worth mentioning that I hated being chased. I didn't ever like it if a guy called too often too soon into the relationship. I liked a little challenge.
I don't judge anyone who wants to pay or wants to split checks. Logically, I totally understand how that could even make someone a "better feminist" than me. I'm okay with that, but picking up tabs is just not how I want to live. I never want to be with someone who thinks I'm the girlfriend or wife with whom he may eventually have separate finances and split bills, because that's not who I am. We talked about this before on MM, but I'm not the kind of woman who could have a SAHH either. H takes his fun money out every week and I handle everything else. If he wasn't my own beloved, I would laugh or cry at him. It may not be equal, it may not even be fair, but I need the financial power in the relationship on all counts. So no, I am not paying for anything while dating, at times, I may not even being earning (I always reserve the right to quit), but I am still the boss of it lol. A man who would let me pick up a check is not going to be a part of the dynamic I need to happy long-term. But like I always say, whatever works for anyone else, great for them! We all have determine our comfort levels and boundaries, and just like I'm not comfortable going Dutch, I totally respect that someone else isn't comfortable not going Dutch.
So, when you guys go out, do you expect him to pay for your date nights with his fun money?
Does this mean you and your H keep separate finances? Or is it just that you like him to be the one who actually gets out the wallet and pays out of your joint bank account?
(Not trying to be antagonistic, just curious.)
It's complicated. Mostly I mean he literally pays the bill. Our finances are mostly shared as I was a stay at home mom for much of the last four years. I'm back working now and I keep my money in a separate account and I don't use that account when we go out. Even when I stayed home and we had our own separate fun money accounts I don't use my fun money on dates.
This is us (except I'm not back to work yet). My fun money is for me (and sometimes the kids, if I'm feeling nice - lol). Dinner and dates come out of his fun money (or his credit card, or his ass, I don't even care). I've used my fun money for dinner exactly twice - when he had a big work success and deserved to be treated in celebration.