It reminds me of other random traditions that we don't really need to read into. Like, I had my father walk me down the aisle when I got married. It wasn't because I believe I was his property and needed to be handed pff to my husband. It was just a tradition that I looked forward to with my dad and enjoyed having part of my wedding. I get the roots of the tradition, but we don't really need to read into it that far. Men paying for the date is the same thing. It's just a tradition that is courteous and some women like. Doesn't mean that at the first date when paid for they want to sign over their right to have a career. It's just a nice gesture that has historically shown a man has good manners.
And boo hoo to the men who think it isn't fair. Life isn't fair. It's not fair that if the date goes well and years down the road we end up married and pregnant, I'm going to spend years puking and leaking milk and getting stretch marks all over my body while he can drink beer and eat raw cheese, but that's how the world works. Man up and Pay for my dinner and feel blessed you don't have to bleed once a month.
LOL! You really feel some kinda way about this, LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Let's just say I'm pregnant and sick right now and over it
ETA - I love DH and love the fact that I'm having another baby. I just want to feel human again and have little sympathy for how unfair life can be for men sometimes
LOL You know I had to read that question twice, like ... huh, in what world would this be happening to me?
It's been damn near 10 years, and Mr. Kirkette still asks, "May I take you out tonight?" a few times a week. I say sure, and then leave my wallet at home, because why would I need it?
Well, in my town (with a college) apparently you may need it indefinitely to prove you are old enough to drink. My FIL got carded when at the pub with us a couple of years ago (he was about 65 at the time).
I don't judge anyone who wants to pay or wants to split checks. Logically, I totally understand how that could even make someone a "better feminist" than me. I'm okay with that, but picking up tabs is just not how I want to live. I never want to be with someone who thinks I'm the girlfriend or wife with whom he may eventually have separate finances and split bills, because that's not who I am. We talked about this before on MM, but I'm not the kind of woman who could have a SAHH either. H takes his fun money out every week and I handle everything else. If he wasn't my own beloved, I would laugh or cry at him. It may not be equal, it may not even be fair, but I need the financial power in the relationship on all counts. So no, I am not paying for anything while dating, at times, I may not even being earning (I always reserve the right to quit), but I am still the boss of it lol. A man who would let me pick up a check is not going to be a part of the dynamic I need to happy long-term. But like I always say, whatever works for anyone else, great for them! We all have determine our comfort levels and boundaries, and just like I'm not comfortable going Dutch, I totally respect that someone else isn't comfortable not going Dutch.
So, when you guys go out, do you expect him to pay for your date nights with his fun money?
Ha--of course not. But outside of his fun money, all the money is in one pot, so date nights are a line item for which I budget. I don't think of it as anything but our money now, especially since he is so apathetic about the finances and I do all the budgeting, bill paying, investing, saving, etc. But for example, I don't take fun money. I just spend and buy what I want, because I am more MM than him. So at this point, I almost feel like the money is more my money than his, even though he's the higher earner lol. Kidding, it's definitely our money, so there isn't any reason for him to pay for date night. But obviously, being a married couple with combined finances is much different from how we interacted while just dating. For the most part, I think people are going to be how they are, no matter who they're with, but I have noticed that my friends who think picking up tabs is the way to go tend to have partners who don't pull their weight as much, financially speaking. I think they attract men who need more, probably because they have are offering more.
So, when you guys go out, do you expect him to pay for your date nights with his fun money?
Ha--of course not. But outside of his fun money, all the money is in one pot, so date nights are a line item for which I budget. I don't think of it as anything but our money now, especially since he is so apathetic about the finances and I do all the budgeting, bill paying, investing, saving, etc. But for example, I don't take fun money. I just spend and buy what I want, because I am more MM than him. So at this point, I almost feel like the money is more my money than his, even though he's the higher earner lol. Kidding, it's definitely our money, so there isn't any reason for him to pay for date night. But obviously, being a married couple with combined finances is much different from how we interacted while just dating. For the most part, I think people are going to be how they are, no matter who they're with, but I have noticed that my friends who think picking up tabs is the way to go tend to have partners who don't pull their weight as much, financially speaking. I think they attract men who need more, probably because they have are offering more.
And see, the fascinating thing is that I am anecdotal proof of this, technically-speaking: I believe I should pick up my share of tabs (or I did, back before we were married and combined finances), and I also make about 55% of our income, so technically my H isn't pulling an equal share of our finances. But, I don't feel like it's any more unfair than a couple in which the H makes more, and I am actually proud that I can contribute so much to our joint situation. I (mostly) like my job, like what I can contribute to the world, and so does he, so we're both happy.
I do admit that I might feel differently about this if he was making like 10% of our HHI indefinitely, or if we were struggling to get by. So, maybe this is a privilege of being higher income earners to begin with.
So, when you guys go out, do you expect him to pay for your date nights with his fun money?
Ha--of course not. But outside of his fun money, all the money is in one pot, so date nights are a line item for which I budget. I don't think of it as anything but our money now, especially since he is so apathetic about the finances and I do all the budgeting, bill paying, investing, saving, etc. But for example, I don't take fun money. I just spend and buy what I want, because I am more MM than him. So at this point, I almost feel like the money is more my money than his, even though he's the higher earner lol. Kidding, it's definitely our money, so there isn't any reason for him to pay for date night. But obviously, being a married couple with combined finances is much different from how we interacted while just dating. For the most part, I think people are going to be how they are, no matter who they're with, but I have noticed that my friends who think picking up tabs is the way to go tend to have partners who don't pull their weight as much, financially speaking. I think they attract men who need more, probably because they have are offering more.
Eh. Obviously I can't speak for your friends, but to the outside, I could see people thinking this about me and DH. I am and always was fine splitting the tab or alternating paying, whatever works. I now make almost 4x what DH makes. But it's not really him not pulling his weight, or needing more. His salary is fine, we'd be fine if each of us made what he makes (or less). I just happen to make a lot more.
ive always split the bill. There are a few exceptions, I don't drink so I don't care about splitting a bill with one or two drinks but I'm not paying for your $55 bottle of wine. I think too if someone suggests the French Laundry and the other person says hey not in my budget or can we go to X instead and the other person insists then they pay.
I also figure I earn more than most men, why shouldn't I pay my own way.
My XH earnt half of what I did and we split everything but eating out and some travel he more than pulled his weight
And see, the fascinating thing is that I am anecdotal proof of this, technically-speaking: I believe I should pick up my share of tabs (or I did, back before we were married and combined finances), and I also make about 55% of our income, so technically my H isn't pulling an equal share of our finances. But, I don't feel like it's any more unfair than a couple in which the H makes more, and I am actually proud that I can contribute so much to our joint situation. I (mostly) like my job, like what I can contribute to the world, and so does he, so we're both happy.
I do admit that I might feel differently about this if he was making like 10% of our HHI indefinitely, or if we were struggling to get by. So, maybe this is a privilege of being higher income earners to begin with.
Eh. Obviously I can't speak for your friends, but to the outside, I could see people thinking this about me and DH. I am and always was fine splitting the tab or alternating paying, whatever works. I now make almost 4x what DH makes. But it's not really him not pulling his weight, or needing more. His salary is fine, we'd be fine if each of us made what he makes (or less). I just happen to make a lot more.
I can see the judgment in what I said and I didn't mean it that way (well, except for about one friend, because her recent long-term ex was a deadbeat and he's not the first). "Pull their own weight" is an unfair characterization. For the most part, those friends have partners/spouses who earn less than them and I shouldn't have phrased it any other way, because I wouldn't phrase it to them that way and I wouldn't want someone saying that about me either lol.
And there is something really bothering me about what I feel is a "poor you" attitude towards men who ask women out. I just can't even begin to feel sorry for men in that regard.
I only feel sorry for the men who accept what they have no reason to believe is not a genuine offer to pay for half of dinner and then don't get a second date solely because of that. It's setting a trap and playing games and it's shitty to do.
I don't otherwise feel sorry for men, in general, or when they pay in full for dates for they initiated.
And see, the fascinating thing is that I am anecdotal proof of this, technically-speaking: I believe I should pick up my share of tabs (or I did, back before we were married and combined finances), and I also make about 55% of our income, so technically my H isn't pulling an equal share of our finances. But, I don't feel like it's any more unfair than a couple in which the H makes more, and I am actually proud that I can contribute so much to our joint situation. I (mostly) like my job, like what I can contribute to the world, and so does he, so we're both happy.
I do admit that I might feel differently about this if he was making like 10% of our HHI indefinitely, or if we were struggling to get by. So, maybe this is a privilege of being higher income earners to begin with.
Eh. Obviously I can't speak for your friends, but to the outside, I could see people thinking this about me and DH. I am and always was fine splitting the tab or alternating paying, whatever works. I now make almost 4x what DH makes. But it's not really him not pulling his weight, or needing more. His salary is fine, we'd be fine if each of us made what he makes (or less). I just happen to make a lot more.
I can see the judgment in what I said and I didn't mean it that way (well, except for about one friend, because her recent long-term ex was a deadbeat and he's not the first). "Pull their own weight" is an unfair characterization. For the most part, those friends have partners/spouses who earn less than them and I shouldn't have phrased it any other way, because I wouldn't phrase it to them that way and I wouldn't want someone saying that about me either lol.
Oh, I didn't actually think you were being judgmental. I was actually "agreeing" with your premise as far as correlation goes, but putting a different spin on the perspective. And honestly maybe the causality is the other way: maybe I want to pay my own way because of something I want to prove because of the career aspirations I have, which relate to my income. If that makes any sense at all. Or now do I sound judgmental? I'm just trying to speak for how I think about myself and my marriage, not about others.
I've been with my husband a long time but I don't recall even paying on a date. I've also never asked anyone out on a date.
I wouldn't be opposed to it and definitely paid occasionally during long term relationships, but I don't consider that a date.
I will share that my husband took me to a Dixie Chicks concert for our first date and he implied that he got the tickets (3rd row) for free from his company. He actually paid for them but thought I might insist on paying my half and he wanted to treat. I guess I put out that hard core feminist vibe. When it all came out it was years after the event but I still think it's funny and kind of weird.
I'm kind of shaking my head at the judgment of how others want to be wooed. I consider myself a feminist. I think women who want to do the asking and do some of the paying are living life on their terms. Cheers to that!
Pre-settling down, I realized I was really freaking happy single. Single life agreed with me, a lot. So if a guy wanted to join the party, he was going to work for it. I wanted to be wooed and wined and dined.
It's time like this that I'm not sure if my mom did me a service by pushing the "don't ever ever ever rely on a man for anything". Lol.
And see, the fascinating thing is that I am anecdotal proof of this, technically-speaking: I believe I should pick up my share of tabs (or I did, back before we were married and combined finances), and I also make about 55% of our income, so technically my H isn't pulling an equal share of our finances. But, I don't feel like it's any more unfair than a couple in which the H makes more, and I am actually proud that I can contribute so much to our joint situation. I (mostly) like my job, like what I can contribute to the world, and so does he, so we're both happy.
I do admit that I might feel differently about this if he was making like 10% of our HHI indefinitely, or if we were struggling to get by. So, maybe this is a privilege of being higher income earners to begin with.
Eh. Obviously I can't speak for your friends, but to the outside, I could see people thinking this about me and DH. I am and always was fine splitting the tab or alternating paying, whatever works. I now make almost 4x what DH makes. But it's not really him not pulling his weight, or needing more. His salary is fine, we'd be fine if each of us made what he makes (or less). I just happen to make a lot more.
I can see the judgment in what I said and I didn't mean it that way (well, except for about one friend, because her recent long-term ex was a deadbeat and he's not the first). "Pull their own weight" is an unfair characterization. For the most part, those friends have partners/spouses who earn less than them and I shouldn't have phrased it any other way, because I wouldn't phrase it to them that way and I wouldn't want someone saying that about me either lol.
I'm not offended, by the way. I am still totally with you on that SAHH thread! I don't care that I make 4x as much. If I work, he works!
I only feel sorry for the men who accept what they have no reason to believe is not a genuine offer to pay for half of dinner and then don't get a second date solely because of that. It's setting a trap and playing games and it's shitty to do.
I don't otherwise feel sorry for men, in general, or when they pay in full for dates for they initiated.
The entire first date is a test to see if you want to have a second date. Is he polite to the waitress? Does he chew with his mouth open? Is he as interested in my thoughts as his own?
And I'm willing to pay during that test drive. But if you're not looking to be a bit old fashioned and do some wooing, I'm not going to be interested in a second date.
You're missing my point. A PP said she would OFFER TO PAY HALF and then when he accepted, would not take a second date. Don't offer in that situation.
You're missing my point. A PP said she would OFFER TO PAY HALF and then when he accepted, would not take a second date. Don't offer in that situation.
I would offer to pay. Because I don't think he's obligated to pay. And I wouldn't want that awkward moment of making him ask if he thinks I should pay.
Especially if HE'S not interested in a second date. Why should he be out the full meal price?
If he's interested in wooing, he'll woo. If he's not, we both shouldn't waste any more time anyway.
Okay? That is not at all relevant to what I was saying. Are you agreeing with me? Or does him paying = him wooing you?
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Oct 16, 2015 15:21:33 GMT -5
I'm still reading the responses but seriously, we cannot get up in arms about not having gender equality AND just expect men to always pay for dates. This is ridiculous. Of course I always offer to pay half, or we just alternates who pays. Anything other than that is bizarre and sexist.
Also I miss Blind Date the tv show. Endless entertainment.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
Another area where I struggle with whether I'm a "feminist" or not. I'm sure a lot of it has to do with how you were brought up/how things were done when you first dated but if I were on a first date with a man and he suggested splitting the check, or when I sort of feebly reached for my purse he allowed it to happen? yes that would bother me.
It's not because I think oh he's a man so he must make more $ than me. Or that I need a man to provide for me financially for all of life. Or anything so sinister or so "deep". Basically it tells me he's cheap and I don't like people who are cheap. Frugal is fine. Frugal would be choosing a restaurant you can afford and not taking every lady you meet out to dinner. Cheap is telling a woman you like her and want to get to know her and can you take her to dinner? then letting her pay for her own meal. At least that's how I feel, even though it's possibly not super feminist of me.
IDK though. Is he paying on a credit card? That might indicate financial irresponsibility or instability. How do I know whether or not he pays it off at the end of every month? So he's gotta pay cash. Unless it's an Amex Black, then we're good. And then what if he pays no problem, but leaves a shitty tip? Do I slip a $20 on the table when he's not looking?
ALL o' this.
That first date may be the audition for the rest of your lives.
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Oct 16, 2015 15:37:33 GMT -5
Okay, I have more to say:
1. Uh, yes, we DO need to look into traditions and why we have them, lest we all end up property and sold to the highest bidder. Don't do a thing just because everyone else does it. Don't teach your kids to do that either. This is bullshit. Put some consideration into your choices.
2. We are all constantly being told to go for the things we want in life, don't wait for them, be confident, etc and it makes no sense to me to be this way in every other aspect of life but dating.
3. Same sex dating leads to hilariously awkward bill-splitting moments for sure. Usually waiters just put you on separate checks because they'd assume you were "girlfriends" and not GIRLFRIENDS.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
I'm fine with being wooed by a cleaned up kitchen and put away laundry
Much more relevant than something I haven't done in over 10 years
True, I am talking like I know anything about dating anymore . I would probably never even get a date in 2015, because I would not be in a textlationship and all the men now like to text.
1. Uh, yes, we DO need to look into traditions and why we have them, lest we all end up property and sold to the highest bidder. Don't do a thing just because everyone else does it. Don't teach your kids to do that either. This is bullshit. Put some consideration into your choices.
2.
So much this. I am so glad I don't need a man to own property, to have a credit card, I no longer get fired for getting married. Times change for a reason sometimes that reason is good.
I don't think some of you are looking at the semantics of what we're saying. We're *allowing* they guy to pay for the date. The control of the situation is in our hands. This isn't about wanting to be taken care of, we're seeing what he's going to do. Much like I'm sure the guys have stuff they're looking for as well.
I've been with my husband a long time but I don't recall even paying on a date. I've also never asked anyone out on a date.
I wouldn't be opposed to it and definitely paid occasionally during long term relationships, but I don't consider that a date.
I will share that my husband took me to a Dixie Chicks concert for our first date and he implied that he got the tickets (3rd row) for free from his company. He actually paid for them but thought I might insist on paying my half and he wanted to treat. I guess I put out that hard core feminist vibe. When it all came out it was years after the event but I still think it's funny and kind of weird.
I think it's cute! My first date with DH was a bet he lost (loser paid for dinner). I knew then that he lost on purpose, but it took him years to admit it.