1. Uh, yes, we DO need to look into traditions and why we have them, lest we all end up property and sold to the highest bidder. Don't do a thing just because everyone else does it. Don't teach your kids to do that either. This is bullshit. Put some consideration into your choices.
2.
So much this. I am so glad I don't need a man to own property, to have a credit card, I no longer get fired for getting married. Times change for a reason sometimes that reason is good.
Meh. There are so many things that are tradition that we do even though we disagree with the reasons the tradition exists. I dye Easter eggs with my kids at Easter. That tradition has some horrific origins (virgin/infant sacrifice). I put up a Christmas tree. I recognize that it is Thursday despite believing in Thor.
I mean some people do things because they like to do them, not because the traditions have any power. Being walked doen the aisle by your dad or letting a man pay for you only makes you a second class citizen if you believe it does.
I agree with the general notion of whoever invites pays - which sort of lead to my first non-date date with my now H. lol
Storytime: this was back when I was still in college, so hanging out at friend's houses frequently was pretty normal. We met because he was friends with my roommates, but he started hanging around more frequently after I moved in. We got along great and signs pointed to use being interested in each other. American Psycho was newly released (lol) and we both talked about wanting to see it, so we agreed to go see it together. I wasn't completely sure if he liked me that way or if we were just friends, so I decided to just play things by ear. In my experience at the time, guys who wanted to date date me paid for the date. Those who wanted to remain friends (or hookup briefly, or be friends with benefits) wouldn't pick up the tab, which no problem, we can be friends but you aren't getting any benefits because I don't play like that.
So we get to the theater and he goes to the window...and buys just one ticket. So I'm thinking okay, he's not that into me, which whatever, I can deal, there are plenty of guys out there. Obviously that wasn't the correct conclusion for me to draw, considering we are married today, but he didn't work up the courage to truly ask me out and lock it down until I had a few other guys who were making their interest known.
Of course his version of events today is that he didn't want to be presumptuous and make it a date if we were just going as friends. lol He also claims he took me out for dinner after and that he paid, which knowing him is likely but I don't remember that part. I still give him a hard time now and then about our first "date".
Post by cookiemdough on Oct 16, 2015 16:38:12 GMT -5
I don't know why we have squash expectations to demonstrate we want equality. I am pretty sure even if allllll the womens in the world said don't open another damn door or buy me another meal, we would still get less pay, still have the perception of being the primary parent, still have most of home responsibilities and then won't even have a bit of chivalry to take off the sting. Kidding about the sting part before people lose their minds that somehow paying for a date makes all the other wrongs okay
1. Uh, yes, we DO need to look into traditions and why we have them, lest we all end up property and sold to the highest bidder. Don't do a thing just because everyone else does it. Don't teach your kids to do that either. This is bullshit. Put some consideration into your choices.
2. We are all constantly being told to go for the things we want in life, don't wait for them, be confident, etc and it makes no sense to me to be this way in every other aspect of life but dating.
3. Same sex dating leads to hilariously awkward bill-splitting moments for sure. Usually waiters just put you on separate checks because they'd assume you were "girlfriends" and not GIRLFRIENDS.
See, it's been since dinosaurs roamed the earth, but I remember it being refreshingly easy with the same sex dating. Either the one who invited paid, or you offered to split, or you thought she was really cute and it gave you a nice buzz to treat her. No strings, no expectations.
One of the things I loved about Mr M from the beginning is that he graciously accepted when I held the door for him.
It changed for me because I have kids and we can provide a better life and give them more opportunities if we do it together. His whole you make more so I should be able to do less when it came to our kids was infuriating for me, Especially since he had a really good salary.
IDK though. Is he paying on a credit card? That might indicate financial irresponsibility or instability. How do I know whether or not he pays it off at the end of every month? So he's gotta pay cash. Unless it's an Amex Black, then we're good. And then what if he pays no problem, but leaves a shitty tip? Do I slip a $20 on the table when he's not looking?
Again, folks show you who they are. My H was quite proud of the fact he'd paid off stupid college student debt and was rebuilding his credit.
Broke ass dude I dated and dumped was job hopping and couldn't keep his cell phone on.
It's not rocket science. You have to pay attention and listen. But women spend way too much time trying to make excuses for bad behavior. Roll out. Men don't have a problem bouncing when they aren't interested or there is a problem. They get ghost. Women can and should do the same.
I observed two couples in formal wear walk into Cici's Pizza. While I resisted asking them how they were going to pay the tab, they are obviously at someone's price point.
Post by omgzombies on Oct 16, 2015 20:44:34 GMT -5
I'm only on page 4, but chiming in. I didn't really date much since H and I met earlier in college, and our dates were more "Hey, I'm getting hungry, let's go eat". I think we were a year in before we had a proper date where we made plans, he came to pick me up and we went to dinner and a show. But on the few dates I'd gone on prior, I have always gone in expecting to pay my share. It helps me avoid feeling guilty about ordering whatever the hell I want, and I like expensive food. Hell if it's coffee or just drinks I would probably even offer to pick up his share. I would be comfortable with offering to pick up dinner too, but I recognize that would weird a lot of people out, so I would avoid that in order to minimize awkwardness. I'm awkward enough without adding to fuel to the fire.
If a guy offers to pay, I will graciously accept, and usually find some way to reciprocate, pay for movie tickets or drinks, etc. It would never occur to me to not go on a second date based on whether someone offered to pay. I do pay attention to tipping though, and if you are stingy with the tip, there probably won't be another date.
(1) This evening, on our way to my fancy dinner, I told H there wad a long ass thread about paying for dinner , he was confused as to why there was a debate. *
(2) I am still LOLing at you LOLing at your H for losing money, was it online sports gambling? I don't know why it makes me giggle but it does.
i am just wondering that the woman's end of the deal is if the man is supposed to pay in order to impress. what does a woman have to do?
I wanted to respond to this on page one, but I figured someone might say what I was about to say. It was hinted on or slighted touched on, but to answer this question, I already did it before the date happened. I've shown myself to be a prospect that you'd be willing to invest in. Whether by my looks, personality, laugh, love of IPAs and museum galleries. Whatever. You've seen something worthy in me to ask me on a date. Show me that I'm worth what you thought that was when you asked. ...
I'm replying after 1.5 beers so who knows what I'll say in the morning, but your wording actually makes more sense than most of what I've read here. It's not (necessarily) a gender thing but rather a whose turn it is to prove worthy thing. Huh.
3. Same sex dating leads to hilariously awkward bill-splitting moments for sure. Usually waiters just put you on separate checks because they'd assume you were "girlfriends" and not GIRLFRIENDS.
Or how about the awkward pauses when they don't know whether or not to suggest one bag or two for the left overs? I always say "One bag. We're going home together." and watch the light bulb go off in their heads.
I wanted to respond to this on page one, but I figured someone might say what I was about to say. It was hinted on or slighted touched on, but to answer this question, I already did it before the date happened. I've shown myself to be a prospect that you'd be willing to invest in. Whether by my looks, personality, laugh, love of IPAs and museum galleries. Whatever. You've seen something worthy in me to ask me on a date. Show me that I'm worth what you thought that was when you asked. ...
I only ready page 1, 5 & 8 but to me, this is where I"m at.
Yes, paying can show manners or general respect or that they have enough resources/$ to bring to the table. I know the man & woman chasing goes both ways but I think that when men are just interested in a casual relationship or trying to get laid, they don't care about the "formalities" of dating or investing time/energy/emotional resources/etc into the woman. I think the paying for things, buying flowers or small gifts, is part of our long-established courting ritual where the woman is seen as a prize to be won or something to be valued or a long-term partner to be wooed.
It's been so long since I've dated, but I think I'd offer to pay half the bill, especially if I wasn't interested in the guy or going on another date. But I'd be a little put off if he didn't grab for it first and/or insist on paying for it all even if I offered.
I can't quite put my finger on why the insistence that the guy must pay to try to impress bothers me so much, but I think it stems from it seeming like woman are weaker or less able to pay or need someone to take care of them.
Flip that around - I'm looking for a guy who can provide for himself and me should the relationship go forward. That doesn't mean that I want him to provide for me forever. I want to know if I'm going to be dragging some deadbeat around, and if so I want to know early so I can dump him.
I took this quote at random, because it is always funny to me reading this stuff as a man. Its one of the things I like about the board. You guys know that I am old school and like being a gentleman and all that. I think it is a nice thing, and the world is crappy enough without taking that away. I also don't think holding a chair for a woman or paying for a meal somehow puts the man above the woman or means the woman is somehow weaker than the man.
Having aid that, if I flipped many of these quotes around gender / expectation wise, I think many of you would explode in anger. For example, it seems pretty clear than many here expect a man to pay for the meal. Thats a standard expectation for women going on a date. I also no its the case than many men expect to be...given something more than a thank you if they pay for the meal. I am not saying that is right - but then, is it right for a woman to expect the man to pay?
So what if some dude was like "I paid for the meal, and didn't even get a BJ - no second date!" or "She didn't put out, I don't want to be dragging some ice cold sexless woman around with me".
I mention these things purely as a mental exercise because it is interesting to me, the way the date / expectations thing works from either side.
I do think most of it is irrelevant because it makes a world of difference how the two people are. I went out with a girl who insisted on paying for things. I was fine with it, but I am a man who likes to pay for his date. The paying in itself was not an issue, but it was part of a personality type that did not work with me. That relationship ended fairly swiftly not because of the payment thing - but it was like a symptom or a red flag alert to the many differences in what we were both looking for, if you see what I mean?
I also think the sexes are not equal, will never be equal and can never be equal. That doesn't mean we shouldn't get paid equal amounts for the same jobs, it just means that it is silly to pretend we are the same. Generally, a man wants to protect and care for his woman, its biologically and historically what we do since it was needed because otherwise the Pterodactyl would eat the baby. I find it weird when a man DOESNT want to do that. Not wrong. Everyone is unique, so its fine either way. But I do think its weird. I also think the sort of man who is like "well, we are all equal so you have to pay your half" is a bit sad really. Its one of those intellectual "truths" that is sort of bollocks. On the other hand, the expectation that I have to pay is sometimes offensive - like in this case, I would have paid the bill. But the pushing the bill over to me like that as if that was my job? Nope. I would have still paid it, but I think that is rude. So for me, that may have been the last date. I did not watch the video - perhaps she had a sparkling personality and the way she pushed the bill was charming? I feel like that wasn't the case lol, but thats what I mean about the personality affecting everything.
Post by oscarnerdjulief on Oct 17, 2015 9:00:44 GMT -5
I'm alright with either splitting the bill or having the guy pay the whole thing, but DH has paid for my meals on our dates since I was thirteen years old and eating at Rax for $3.16. (that includes the Uncle Alligator chocolate chip cookie)
Post by oscarnerdjulief on Oct 17, 2015 9:04:18 GMT -5
I agree with Reeve's comment:
"But the pushing the bill over to me like that as if that was my job? Nope. I would have still paid it, but I think that is rude. So for me, that may have been the last date."
The entire first date is a test to see if you want to have a second date. Is he polite to the waitress? Does he chew with his mouth open? Is he as interested in my thoughts as his own?
And I'm willing to pay during that test drive. But if you're not looking to be a bit old fashioned and do some wooing, I'm not going to be interested in a second date.
You're missing my point. A PP said she would OFFER TO PAY HALF and then when he accepted, would not take a second date. Don't offer in that situation.
I said that and stand by it. If he accepts or turns down my offer that is totally on him and his decision, but it absolutely factors in to my decision on whether or not there is a second date. I said it a bit flippantly originally, but truthfully it's one of many criteria I would be looking at and balancing throughout the evening to determine if a second date was going to happen. Everyone has their own standards and preferences for what they are looking for in a mate and we are all checking off our plus and minus columns during a first date to see how that other person is stacking up. I want a man who wants to treat me on the first date without any hassle. I will not apologize for that being part of my criteria. Just as no one should apologize for their own personal criteria because finding a possible mate is something that is deeply personal and we all have our own expectations. You don't like that I would be bothered when he accepts my offer? Don't care. It's not your choice, so you do you and don't worry about my own expectations for my personal relationships.
I took this quote at random, because it is always funny to me reading this stuff as a man. Its one of the things I like about the board. You guys know that I am old school and like being a gentleman and all that. I think it is a nice thing, and the world is crappy enough without taking that away. I also don't think holding a chair for a woman or paying for a meal somehow puts the man above the woman or means the woman is somehow weaker than the man.
Having aid that, if I flipped many of these quotes around gender / expectation wise, I think many of you would explode in anger. For example, it seems pretty clear than many here expect a man to pay for the meal. Thats a standard expectation for women going on a date. I also no its the case than many men expect to be...given something more than a thank you if they pay for the meal. I am not saying that is right - but then, is it right for a woman to expect the man to pay?
So what if some dude was like "I paid for the meal, and didn't even get a BJ - no second date!" or "She didn't put out, I don't want to be dragging some ice cold sexless woman around with me".
I mention these things purely as a mental exercise because it is interesting to me, the way the date / expectations thing works from either side.
I do think most of it is irrelevant because it makes a world of difference how the two people are. I went out with a girl who insisted on paying for things. I was fine with it, but I am a man who likes to pay for his date. The paying in itself was not an issue, but it was part of a personality type that did not work with me. That relationship ended fairly swiftly not because of the payment thing - but it was like a symptom or a red flag alert to the many differences in what we were both looking for, if you see what I mean?
I also think the sexes are not equal, will never be equal and can never be equal. That doesn't mean we shouldn't get paid equal amounts for the same jobs, it just means that it is silly to pretend we are the same. Generally, a man wants to protect and care for his woman, its biologically and historically what we do since it was needed because otherwise the Pterodactyl would eat the baby. I find it weird when a man DOESNT want to do that. Not wrong. Everyone is unique, so its fine either way. But I do think its weird.
Then we aren't a match. No hard feelings. Not for me. Next.
I think this hits on the heart of it - dating is about finding a match. It's not about doing things right or wrong, it's about finding someone you're compatible with. I'm looking for a particular kind of man. If you're not like that, it doesn't mean you're wrong or bad, but it means that I'm not compatible with you. There may be someone else out there instead who loves and appreciates the way you are.
I took this quote at random, because it is always funny to me reading this stuff as a man. Its one of the things I like about the board. You guys know that I am old school and like being a gentleman and all that. I think it is a nice thing, and the world is crappy enough without taking that away. I also don't think holding a chair for a woman or paying for a meal somehow puts the man above the woman or means the woman is somehow weaker than the man.
Having aid that, if I flipped many of these quotes around gender / expectation wise, I think many of you would explode in anger. For example, it seems pretty clear than many here expect a man to pay for the meal. Thats a standard expectation for women going on a date. I also no its the case than many men expect to be...given something more than a thank you if they pay for the meal. I am not saying that is right - but then, is it right for a woman to expect the man to pay?
So what if some dude was like "I paid for the meal, and didn't even get a BJ - no second date!" or "She didn't put out, I don't want to be dragging some ice cold sexless woman around with me".
I mention these things purely as a mental exercise because it is interesting to me, the way the date / expectations thing works from either side.
I do think most of it is irrelevant because it makes a world of difference how the two people are. I went out with a girl who insisted on paying for things. I was fine with it, but I am a man who likes to pay for his date. The paying in itself was not an issue, but it was part of a personality type that did not work with me. That relationship ended fairly swiftly not because of the payment thing - but it was like a symptom or a red flag alert to the many differences in what we were both looking for, if you see what I mean?
I also think the sexes are not equal, will never be equal and can never be equal. That doesn't mean we shouldn't get paid equal amounts for the same jobs, it just means that it is silly to pretend we are the same. Generally, a man wants to protect and care for his woman, its biologically and historically what we do since it was needed because otherwise the Pterodactyl would eat the baby. I find it weird when a man DOESNT want to do that. Not wrong. Everyone is unique, so its fine either way. But I do think its weird. I also think the sort of man who is like "well, we are all equal so you have to pay your half" is a bit sad really. Its one of those intellectual "truths" that is sort of bollocks. On the other hand, the expectation that I have to pay is sometimes offensive - like in this case, I would have paid the bill. But the pushing the bill over to me like that as if that was my job? Nope. I would have still paid it, but I think that is rude. So for me, that may have been the last date. I did not watch the video - perhaps she had a sparkling personality and the way she pushed the bill was charming? I feel like that wasn't the case lol, but thats what I mean about the personality affecting everything.
So my reaction would totally depend on the context. You're super sexual and aren't going to date girls who don't give it up easily - OK.
You think a woman is OBLIGATED to put out for ordering the lobster? - I judge the hell out of you.
I just want to emphasise that this isn't my point of view I am arguing lol.
But again, flip this around..."You're super money conscious and aren't going to uphold your side of the financial burden? I judge the hell out of you" lol. Neither may be the case, but both may be why there is no second date.
Again, I disagree with the point I am arguing. But it is one of those interesting double standards. Or maybe...they are different things altogether - paying for something and having sex with someone. So perhaps the analogy itself is at fault.
I just find the contradiction in myself and in this topic fascinating - The expectation that both pay for a meal equally as we are all equal and etc etc is one of those things that I agree with in principle. But it doesn't feel right to me. I like to pay for my date.
Oh! Maybe thats where this all goes wrong - the whole premise is that the man is doing the woman a favour by paying. But if I am honest, its a thing I LIKE to do as much as (I hope) the woman likes to have it done. So there is no favour or debt made. Both are doing what makes them happy. I can't say how that falls on a scale of right to wrong, but there it is.
So much this. I am so glad I don't need a man to own property, to have a credit card, I no longer get fired for getting married. Times change for a reason sometimes that reason is good.
Meh. There are so many things that are tradition that we do even though we disagree with the reasons the tradition exists. I dye Easter eggs with my kids at Easter. That tradition has some horrific origins (virgin/infant sacrifice). I put up a Christmas tree. I recognize that it is Thursday despite believing in Thor.
I mean some people do things because they like to do them, not because the traditions have any power. Being walked doen the aisle by your dad or letting a man pay for you only makes you a second class citizen if you believe it does.
I know this is off topic, but this ^^^^ is NOT true. The only sources I can find for this claim also claim the Jews sacrifice gentile babies (to Pagan gods, of all things) and bake their blood into matzo. Such ridiculous, offensive, bullshit.
Meh. There are so many things that are tradition that we do even though we disagree with the reasons the tradition exists. I dye Easter eggs with my kids at Easter. That tradition has some horrific origins (virgin/infant sacrifice). I put up a Christmas tree. I recognize that it is Thursday despite believing in Thor.
I mean some people do things because they like to do them, not because the traditions have any power. Being walked doen the aisle by your dad or letting a man pay for you only makes you a second class citizen if you believe it does.
I know this is off topic, but this ^^^^ is NOT true. The only sources I can find for this claim also claim the Jews sacrifice gentile babies (to Pagan gods, of all things) and bake their blood into matzo. Such ridiculous, offensive, bullshit.
::face palm:: I missed that the first time around.
I know this is off topic, but this ^^^^ is NOT true. The only sources I can find for this claim also claim the Jews sacrifice gentile babies (to Pagan gods, of all things) and bake their blood into matzo. Such ridiculous, offensive, bullshit.
::face palm:: I missed that the first time around.
Lol. I was surprised no one else addressed it, but I get the feeling people are skimming her posts on this topic anyway.
I'm not naive enough to think that the goddess Astarte/Ishtar, whose fertility celebration was around the same time as modern Easter, isn't somehow related to the Greek Aphrodite, the Jewish Esther, or our Easter, as well as a zillion other celebrstions that occured in the spring for various peoples throughout history. Christians have a history of co-opting pagan rituals and celebrations and claiming them for Christ. The similarity in the words alone should be enough to show a certain link.
I'm also not naive enough to think that virgin snd infant sacrifice did not take place in thise ancient pagan cults and religions (not talking about Judaism). Or that eggs and decorating eggs were not a part of their celebrations, ad they have been a part of nearly every fertility celebration since the beginning of time.
But think what you want and call me crazy. I give no cares at all. Nor do I care about the origin of the celebration, ad my whole point was that the origin of such traditions does not matter one bit in our modern times.
Post by lyssbobiss, Command, B613 on Oct 17, 2015 12:01:54 GMT -5
It's a super weird bullshit trap to offer to pay for half or whole but the real secret answer is that you want the man to decline your offer. And if he does take the option he should magically know isn't really an option then he doesn't get a second date. So, you're setting yourselves up for terrible communication and secret non-options. If you aren't willing to pay, and you're going to next a bro for taking up your offer to pay, just don't offer. I don't understand why some of you are talking in code.
"This prick is asking for someone here to bring him to task Somebody give me some dirt on this vacuous mass so we can at last unmask him I'll pull the trigger on it, someone load the gun and cock it While we were all watching, he got Washington in his pocket."
It's a super weird bullshit trap to offer to pay for half or whole but the real secret answer is that you want the man to decline your offer. And if he does take the option he should magically know isn't really an option then he doesn't get a second date. So, you're setting yourselves up for terrible communication and secret non-options. If you aren't willing to pay, and you're going to next a bro for taking up your offer to pay, just don't offer. I don't understand why some of you are talking in code.
I agree. I never offered because I liked being wooed and paying is a part of that for me. However, I was always ready to pay my half if my date made it clear that's what he expected. It's been so long since I was actively dating that I can't really remember if that ever happened though (aside from the - are we on a date or not confusion - with my now H).