Post by pantsparty on Aug 22, 2012 22:17:18 GMT -5
It's one thing that he did this and you went to therapy. Like you said, it had been two years, and you were going to therapy to work through the problem.
And then he did it again, the same day you went to therapy.
You say he is remorseful. But he did it again. So he apparently has no control over himself, or he just doesn't care. Or the compulsion is so strong he can't, or won't, stop himself.
I guess my mind is blown because I could not be with a person that was "working" on not VIOLATING ME while I am sleeping. I don't know how I could be with that person, smile with him, live with him, carry on to my friends and family like I loved him. In some ways I would feel sorry for him. If he is truly remorseful, it probably means he really can't control himself.
But it really wouldn't matter to me WHAT it was, or how we was trying to fix it. He wouldn't be my husband anymore.
She said he's awake and knows what he's doing. And that the therapist said she was justified in leaving if she wanted.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. If he has broken her trust in a way she can't forgive, she should leave and the divorce would 100% be his fault. But she hasn't said that's what she wants. And I don't think it's for us to tell her to make that decision. And I also don't think she is putting her child at risk for being molested by not leaving, as some people im here have said. She needs her own therapist. She needs him out of her bedroom. But she also needs to make this choice herself. I mean, really, suggesting he's going to rape their child? That is a big fucking leap.
Post by vanillacourage on Aug 22, 2012 22:26:31 GMT -5
If you don't think you deserve better than a rapist for a husband, surely you think your kid deserves better than a rapist for a father. If your child is a boy, how is he going to grow up treating his girlfriends or wife? And if your child is a girl, what is she going to pick up along the way on what she should put up with in a relationship?
I am not trying to pile on, but you're so far past what's healthy that maybe harsh words are better than unqualified support. I am so sorry you're going through this.
I'm just going to say it- I wouldn't leave my husband over this. I am clearly in the minority. It is horrible he did it again when he knew her feelings. She should absolutely throw him out of the bedroom. But I wouldn't leave my husband over this. Not if he was in therapy and working on it.
You'd be upset with your DH raping you several times, but because he is getting therapy, you are willing to work on it?
In *my* marriage, it would not be rape because he has my consent to do it. That is obviously not the case here. It was rape. He knew how she felt. He knew she didn't consent. But I can see how this could be colossally bad judgment and not symptomatic of psycopahy or whatever. She is justified in making whatever choice she wants. She has more than enough reason to. But I do not think the act makes divorce the only option here if she does not want it to be.
I've been raped, by a man I was dating, while screaming no and kicking and fighting. And I've also woken up to my husband trying to initiate sex with me; possibly already having penetrated me. I can in no way put those two acts in the same category. Maybe that's just me. I don't doubt others feel differently. But legally they are not the same crime, and emotionally (to me) they are not the same crime, and from her husband's perspective I could see how he could have a hard time grasping this is rape. I'm not saying she shouldn't divorce him if that is what SHE wants. But I personally don't view divorce as her only option.
Floyd, I don't know. I don't think it's a fetish. I don't know if he knows. The therapist asked him many of the same questions trying to get at why he enjoys it. It's not about not wanting me to say no. Most of the time that I'm conscious I'm pretty willing.
It doesn't seem like he's all that worried about you saying no....or anything at all. I think the"problem" for him is that you ARE conscious and you ARE willing. It looks like that might be the opposite of what he is in the mood for, which is rape. I also agree with Mary that this is about power. This honestly makes me sick. I get where Elle is coming from, some people might be OK with waking up with DH going to town. Clearly you are not, it has caused problems in your marriage, you have sought therapy together and you have expressed how it hurts you....and he did it anyway. He's an awful person for that as well, he completely doesn't give a shit how you feel IN ADDITION to raping you. Is this really someone you want to work on a marriage with? I can't imagine he is a total peach the rest of the time when he is so effed up. I would leave, and I don't say that lightly either.
I didn't see anyone warning that he would rape their child. I would worry, however, what the ramifications would be of a daughter being raised by a man with that kind of disrespect for women.
It's on the preceding page-
My concern, above the concern for you, is that your H will seek an outlet for his need to rape. If you are locked in another room, that leaves your child exposed. I get that you are committed to your "marriage", but you need to consider all possibilities, including the effects on your child.
I can in no way put those two acts in the same category. Maybe that's just me. I don't doubt others feel differently. But legally they are not the same crime, and emotionally (to me) they are not the same crime, and from her husband's perspective I could see how he could have a hard time grasping this is rape. I'm not saying she shouldn't divorce him if that is what SHE wants. But I personally don't view divorce as her only option.
I think the biggest difference is that she has expressed how she feels (and is) violated. She is having a hard time getting through it, so she seeks therapy with her husband. And then on the same day they go to therapy, he does it again.
I can see your view because if this happened to me, I would assume my husband was somehow sleep sexing me and would be annoyed but not feel it is rape. I can guarantee if I decided to give him a BJ at 3:00 a.m. he would not feel it is rape. I think it's disturbing he's fully awake and sees her sleeping and decides to do this to her.
I also think if this happened to me, and I told my husband how much it hurt and disturbed me, even if he did not think it was rape, he would not do it again. Ever. If he felt that he could not control himself, he would rather lock himself in a room than make me feel violated again.
The fact that he did it again, that he cannot comprehend her view, and cannot or will not control himself, is what makes me think this will be very hard to work on. And I don't know that I'd be willing to stay while he went through that process.
You'd be upset with your DH raping you several times, but because he is getting therapy, you are willing to work on it?
In *my* marriage, it would not be rape because he has my consent to do it. That is obviously not the case here. It was rape. He knew how she felt. He knew she didn't consent. But I can see how this could be colossally bad judgment and not symptomatic of psycopahy or whatever. She is justified in making whatever choice she wants. She has more than enough reason to. But I do not think the act makes divorce the only option here if she does not want it to be.
I've been raped, by a man I was dating, while screaming no and kicking and fighting. And I've also woken up to my husband trying to initiate sex with me; possibly already having penetrated me. I can in no way put those two acts in the same category. Maybe that's just me. I don't doubt others feel differently. But legally they are not the same crime, and emotionally (to me) they are not the same crime, and from her husband's perspective I could see how he could have a hard time grasping this is rape. I'm not saying she shouldn't divorce him if that is what SHE wants. But I personally don't view divorce as her only option.
You know how her H knew it was rape? Because she TOLD him it was rape. And the he did it again. I'm kind of disgusted at your responses in here, to be honest. I'm sorry you were raped- that guy deserves to be castrated, but just because she didn't kick and scream doesn't make it any less traumatizing and horrible and I feel like you're giving the guy a pass.
OP - I'm so sorry you're going through this and I hope you find it in yourself to realize that you deserve better.
You know, on further thought, I would leave if I'd told my husband not to do it, and he did it anyway. I would. But I still understand how she could rationally, with the advice of therapists and after a lengthy separation, decide to stay in the marriage. And I still think it is a huge reach to say he is some out of control psychopath who would rape their child.
In *my* marriage, it would not be rape because he has my consent to do it. That is obviously not the case here. It was rape. He knew how she felt. He knew she didn't consent. But I can see how this could be colossally bad judgment and not symptomatic of psycopahy or whatever. She is justified in making whatever choice she wants. She has more than enough reason to. But I do not think the act makes divorce the only option here if she does not want it to be.
I've been raped, by a man I was dating, while screaming no and kicking and fighting. And I've also woken up to my husband trying to initiate sex with me; possibly already having penetrated me. I can in no way put those two acts in the same category. Maybe that's just me. I don't doubt others feel differently. But legally they are not the same crime, and emotionally (to me) they are not the same crime, and from her husband's perspective I could see how he could have a hard time grasping this is rape. I'm not saying she shouldn't divorce him if that is what SHE wants. But I personally don't view divorce as her only option.
You know how her H knew it was rape? Because she TOLD him it was rape. And the he did it again. I'm kind of disgusted at your responses in here, to be honest. I'm sorry you were raped- that guy deserves to be castrated, but just because she didn't kick and scream doesn't make it any less traumatizing and horrible and I feel like you're giving the guy a pass.
OP - I'm so sorry you're going through this and I hope you find it in yourself to realize that you deserve better.
Then you misread what I wrote (twice, apparently). He doesn't deserve a pass. This is very, very serious and she should not share a bed with him nor should she continue in a marriage without serious therapy. But I just don't automatically think this means he is some sexual psycopath who cannot be rehabilitated. And I don't think we need to be pushing her so strongly towards divorce when she has a therapist, and she has her own opinion on what she wants to do, and what she wants isn't what "we" think she should want. She is in the marriage. Her therapist knows way more about this than we do. It is not our place to so categorically say she absolutely must leave.
You know how her H knew it was rape? Because she TOLD him it was rape. And the he did it again. I'm kind of disgusted at your responses in here, to be honest. I'm sorry you were raped- that guy deserves to be castrated, but just because she didn't kick and scream doesn't make it any less traumatizing and horrible and I feel like you're giving the guy a pass.
OP - I'm so sorry you're going through this and I hope you find it in yourself to realize that you deserve better.
Then you misread what I wrote (twice, apparently). He doesn't deserve a pass. This is very, very serious and she should not share a bed with him nor should she continue in a marriage without serious therapy. But I just don't automatically think this means he is some sexual psycopath who cannot be rehabilitated. And I don't think we need to be pushing her so strongly towards divorce when she has a therapist, and she has her own opinion on what she wants to do, and what she wants isn't what "we" think she should want. She is in the marriage. Her therapist knows way more about this than we do. It is not our place to so categorically say she absolutely must leave.
You don't think that there is something seriously wrong with a man, when his wife said to him that she didn't want to have sex with him, he did it anyway several times. And then when she said she had issues with it, he said that it was her issue and that she needed to get over it?
Post by snipsnsnails on Aug 22, 2012 22:53:35 GMT -5
Oh, I'm sorry. I've been thinking about you.
I have a bit of a personal question...are there some sort of religious ties keeping you to this marriage, or is it strictly your individual commitment to it outside of a belief system? I ask because I felt like I wanted to say that if that is one of the reasons you are staying, it is ok to leave. You are justified in leaving. He has abandoned the vows he took to this marriage. Your marriage covenant was broken by him. Most of all, you are in danger.
Of course, if this isn't faith-based (specifically Judeo-Christian), please ignore and it's still ok to leave. I would and that isn't something I say lightly. You need to remove yourself from this home and remove your child. Separate bedrooms are not enough. I'm sorry you are being subjected to this. Most of all, I'm sorry that you have been brought to a place where you don't see the subjection.
Then you misread what I wrote (twice, apparently). He doesn't deserve a pass. This is very, very serious and she should not share a bed with him nor should she continue in a marriage without serious therapy. But I just don't automatically think this means he is some sexual psycopath who cannot be rehabilitated. And I don't think we need to be pushing her so strongly towards divorce when she has a therapist, and she has her own opinion on what she wants to do, and what she wants isn't what "we" think she should want. She is in the marriage. Her therapist knows way more about this than we do. It is not our place to so categorically say she absolutely must leave.
You don't think that there is something seriously wrong with a man, when his wife said to him that she didn't want to have sex with him, he did it anyway several times. And then when she said she had issues with it, he said that it was her issue and that she needed to get over it?
That is not what I said. There is absolutely something seriously wrong with him. She should not share a room with him. But he is apparently remorseful. He is committed to therapy. And she does not want to leave. I do not think this situation is so clear cut (based on the information we have) that people need to be telling her she absolutely must leave and ignore their therapist. This woman does not sound like some sort of bebe bride who doesn't know the situation she is in. She has a therapist who is an expert in sexual offenders and he thinks there is value in trying to work this out. I am merely saying that based on what we know I do not think people piling on and telling her she is putting her child at risk (and is some sort of irrational person for considering staying in the marriage) is helpful or accurate.
You don't think that there is something seriously wrong with a man, when his wife said to him that she didn't want to have sex with him, he did it anyway several times. And then when she said she had issues with it, he said that it was her issue and that she needed to get over it?
That is not what I said. There is absolutely something seriously wrong with him. She should not share a room with him. But he is apparently remorseful. He is committed to therapy. And she does not want to leave. I do not think this situation is so clear cut (based on the information we have) that people need to be telling her she absolutely must leave and ignore their therapist. This woman does not sound like some sort of bebe bride who doesn't know the situation she is in. She has a therapist who is an expert in sexual offenders and he thinks there is value in trying to work this out. I am merely saying that based on what we know I do not think people piling on and telling her she is putting her child at risk (and is some sort of irrational person for considering staying in the marriage) is helpful or accurate.
It's the cycle of abuse. He's 'remorseful' then he does it again. This last time he raped her after a therapy session. He's not going to get better. He's an abuser.
Elle, if she's going to use this place as a sounding board, she's going to get advice. I have no problem telling this woman she should leave a man who repeatedly rapes her, and should leave a therapist telling her it might be a good idea to have sex with the man who repeatedly rapes her and that she needs to learn to control her anger if she wants to help her husband get better.
There may very well be a future for this marriage. But there should not be. And I have no qualms whatsoever in saying that.
You don't think that there is something seriously wrong with a man, when his wife said to him that she didn't want to have sex with him, he did it anyway several times. And then when she said she had issues with it, he said that it was her issue and that she needed to get over it?
That is not what I said. There is absolutely something seriously wrong with him. She should not share a room with him. But he is apparently remorseful. He is committed to therapy. And she does not want to leave. I do not think this situation is so clear cut (based on the information we have) that people need to be telling her she absolutely must leave and ignore their therapist. This woman does not sound like some sort of bebe bride who doesn't know the situation she is in. She has a therapist who is an expert in sexual offenders and he thinks there is value in trying to work this out. I am merely saying that based on what we know I do not think people piling on and telling her she is putting her child at risk (and is some sort of irrational person for considering staying in the marriage) is helpful or accurate.
I don't see remorse. He raped her, they went to therapy, and he raped her again. How is that remorseful?
Elle, if she's going to use this place as a sounding board, she's going to get advice. I have no problem telling this woman she should leave a man who repeatedly rapes her, and should leave a therapist telling her it might be a good idea to have sex with the man who repeatedly rapes her, and that she needs to learn to control her anger if she wants to help her husband get better.
There may very well be a future for this marriage. But there should not be. And I have no qualms whatsoever in saying that.
That's fine. But my advice is that I do not personally view this as cut and dry. Removing herself from the situation is cut and dry. Insisting he address this in serious therapy is cut and dry. But divorce? We lack information that her therapist and she both have. I'm just saying that IF she decides to try to work this out, I don't think we should toss her in the Ashbride category and call her decision totally irrational and potentially a threat to her child. I could see how a rational person could decide this is something her marriage could move past. Not that she should make that decision; but if she does, I don't view it as irrational.
Elle, I'm confused as to why you feel this is different than other forms of abuse. You're making this therapist out to be some kind of god. He specializes in sex offenders? So? He can still be incompetent.
Sure. He could be. But OP does not think he is. And she, by all appearances, comes across as a levelheaded woman who is not in denial about this situation. I am not defending her husband- he really is not defensible. I am defending the OP, and simply saying that I understand how she, as the victim, could make a decision she wants to work this out. I don't think we need a dog pile of people implying she is insane for even considering it. Saying you tuonk she should leave is one thing. But the absolute outrage at the thought she might consider trying to save the marriage is uncalled for IMO.
Unless you are OK with sleeping in another room with a dead lock for the rest of your life, leave now. He will rape you again. Your therapist should be fired. I don't know what else to say. You say you love him. He doesn't seem to love you. Rape is an act of violence. Not love.
Post by gretchenindisguise on Aug 22, 2012 23:22:07 GMT -5
Elle, I'm curious if you read her previous posts on this topic.
I honestly cannot get over the fact that it happend in the past, more than once. She told him how it made her feel, he did it again. Most recently, she told him how it made her feel with the therapist and got it through his thick skull that it was actually rape. And then he did it again. Less than 24 hours after a therapy session.
I kind of feel like I'm in an alternate universe with you saying that this isn't as bad as everyone here is saying it is. Rape is rape is rape is rape. Are there violent rapes and less violent rapes? Sure. But they're still rape.
Elle, I'm confused as to why you feel this is different than other forms of abuse. You're making this therapist out to be some kind of god. He specializes in sex offenders? So? He can still be incompetent.
Sure. He could be. But OP does not think he is. And she, by all appearances, comes across as a levelheaded woman who is not in denial about this situation. I am not defending her husband- he really is not defensible. I am defending the OP, and simply saying that I understand how she, as the victim, could make a decision she wants to work this out. I don't think we need a dog pile of people implying she is insane for even considering it. Saying you tuonk she should leave is one thing. But the absolute outrage at the thought she might consider trying to save the marriage is uncalled for IMO.
Who implied that she is insane?
Where is this absolute outrage?
We all were expressing concern for her well being.
Sure. He could be. But OP does not think he is. And she, by all appearances, comes across as a levelheaded woman who is not in denial about this situation. I am not defending her husband- he really is not defensible. I am defending the OP, and simply saying that I understand how she, as the victim, could make a decision she wants to work this out. I don't think we need a dog pile of people implying she is insane for even considering it. Saying you tuonk she should leave is one thing. But the absolute outrage at the thought she might consider trying to save the marriage is uncalled for IMO.
Who implied that she is insane?
Where is this absolute outrage?
We all were expressing concern for her well being.
There are two posts that suggest she is putting her child at risk of being raped. That, to me, implies outrage and something only an insane woman would do.
We all were expressing concern for her well being.
There are two posts that suggest she is putting her child at risk of being raped. That, to me, implies outrage and something only an insane woman would do.
I believe that we all (if I may speak for others) see that as voicing concern.
I don't know. Maybe I am totally, totally, totally wrong here. I don't rule that out. I read outrage and tone bordering on condescension in some of the posts. And I didn't like it, and it didn't seem fair to the OP. But maybe that degree of outrage is helpful to her, and what I have said is not. If so, I am sorry.
Post by PinkSquirrel on Aug 22, 2012 23:46:34 GMT -5
I'm so sorry you're going through this. Your therapist specializes in sexual predators not rape victims. Please get a therapist that specializes in your situation and leave. I am beyond horrified that he did it again. You deserve so much better. I know you're in a different room, but please lock the door to your room tonight. I'm sure a few steps down the hall won't deter him