I don't know. Maybe I am totally, totally, totally wrong here. I don't rule that out. I read outrage and tone bordering on condescension in some of the posts. And I didn't like it, and it didn't seem fair to the OP. But maybe that degree of outrage is helpful to her, and what I have said is not. If so, I am sorry.
I don't even know you anymore.
It was not my intent for her personal trauma to devolve into a debate over culpability for different forms of rape. And that happened, and I don't think it was helpful, and I am sorry for that.
I'm so sorry you're going through this. Your therapist specializes in sexual predators not rape victims. Please get a therapist that specializes in your situation and leave. I am beyond horrified that he did it again. You deserve so much better. I know you're in a different room, but please lock the door to your room tonight. I'm sure a few steps down the hall won't deter him
This is great advice. Any counselor with half a brain would know better than to treat a sexual offender AND his victim....AND advise that they work on their relationship under the same roof.
OP is not an expert in the field. This alleged counselor is supposed to be. What a terrible injustice. It makes me sad for everyone involved.
The behavior is abuse. The fact that it happens between married adults does not change that. If she were willingly taking punches to the face, no one would question whether or not it is just part of the dynamics of their marriage. Being willing to take (or unable to leave) abuse does not mean that it is not still abusive and illegal.
OP, I am so so sorry to hear this. Please take care of yourself and your child. No one deserves this kind of abuse. You should not have to sleep in fear every night.
I don't know where the line in the sand is for you, but please start making an exit plan. I'm with everyone who thinks you need a new therapist. In my opinion his advice got you raped again. He either has been a failure at making your H understand he is a rapist or your H knows it and thinks he can get away with it. He has already. What consequences for his actions?
Your anger is justified and it shouldn't be pacified by these two men. Saving yourself will eventually save your child (no I don't think he is going to rape your child), but in the sense you cannot live with this man and have a happy home. He has made it impossible.
I hope that in five years you are posting here about how fantastic your life and relationship are. To get there, I think you are going to need to go through some tough times in these next few years. I think that great relationship is going to be with someone else. Even if we buy into every line you've been told - that a marriage can survive something like this - do you really want to be in that marriage? The kind of marriage where your husband has so little respect for you and is so manipulative that you can't even go to sleep safely? Plenty of abusive marriages continue. The fact your marriage might last doesn't necessarily mean it should.
Elle, I feel like you're putting a lot of emphasis on this therapist. There have been landmark cases where therapists have not fulfilled their duty to warn and someone was murdered. This was an issue brought up with the VA tech shooter and I've read reports that it may be an issue with the movie theatre shooter. Just because they are seeing a therapist does not mean everything will be fine. Therapists mess up all.the.time. Im currently working on an MA in forensic psych and we have studied tons of cases where therapists mess up. FWIW, I do not think he will shoot up he place, nor do I think their child is in danger. I think the H is an awful person who doesn't seem to care that he is harming his wife. In my post, I.didn't mean to come off condescending and I'm sure no one else did. This situation is alarming and I think people are posting with the best intentions because this is seriously messed up. He is in therapy, yes, but he did it again anyway!
Post by notmyrealusername on Aug 23, 2012 6:28:04 GMT -5
Toledo, you are absolutely right. I know that what I write here is public and will probably receive comments. And I appreciate that everyone cares so much about me when they don't even know who I am.
But as Elle so perceptively stated, I do not want to leave him yet. I need to know that I have done everything I can before I take that step. And getting a divorce because he still did it after ONE joint session, where the therapist was advising on the basis that the last occurrence was two years prior, does not seem like (by my own standards, noone else's) that I am really giving therapy a chance to work.
I can understand your collective concern that he might hurt our child or someone else, or that he might turn violent toward me, but that is so so so not his M.O. Years ago, I expressed interest in getting into more S&M stuff and he absolutely did not want to. The couple of times we tried bondage, he was so uncomfortable and not into it.
Somebody mentioned that her H would welcome being woken up to a BJ. I think this is where H's issue is. He wants me to be into it. He lets himself believe I am into it. This is something he has been working on with the therapist.
I don't think our therapist is incompetent. He has been really hard on H and has made ME more accountable, too, i.e. I will leave him if he does this again. I appreciate the advice to do individual counseling with someone who specializes in rape, though, and I'm going to look into that.
Snips, we are religious, but I'm pretty sure that our clergyman would take the same stance as our therapist: that I am justified in leaving. I'm not going to lie, it does play a part in my decision. But I think that there are other factors that are even more significant. A lot of logistics about our lifestyle (don't really want to get into) would mean I would have to make huge changes if I do leave him. So while I may have one stressor removed by exiting, it will cause a whole new level of difficulty and may not make me any happier or better of a mother. This in and of itself does not mean that I can't or won't leave. I do have tentative plans in place if I do need to exit. I am documenting everything and all our paperwork is in order.
I think that addressed most of your comments from last night. Thank you all for taking the time and for showing how much you care. It does help to be able to write it all out. I feel a little better, and it helps me talk to H. I may continue to post, maybe not. Please don't feel obligated to comment. I won't be offended. I know that most of you disagree with my plan of action, so I don't expect you to continue beating your head against the wall.
And I don't think we need to be pushing her so strongly towards divorce when she has a therapist, and she has her own opinion on what she wants to do, and what she wants isn't what "we" think she should want. She is in the marriage. Her therapist knows way more about this than we do. It is not our place to so categorically say she absolutely must leave.
This is how I feel about pretty much all of the DIVORCE HIM pile ons. We just don't really know, especially if the couple is in therapy. I feel unqualified to tell a person in most of these situations what to do.
I also hate all of the THAT THERAPIST IS A QUACK stuff. Only she knows the real situation and only she can make that call. I hate when a therapist doesn't agree with the majority vote on ML and is suddenly not a valid choice, the verdict coming from a group of people who suggested therapy in the first place.
I'm sorry, sex crimes are often cut and dry. No consent = rape. Repeated rape, at this point. And honestly I don't see someone who truly wants to save the marriage -- I see a "battered woman" who, if/when she does leave, will realize she should have left sooner. There is psychological trauma, which she's admitted to, and from what I've read there is a huge disconnect between what she's posted in this OP and "I want to save my marriage." ETA or rather, that she's continuously trying to convince herself that leaving is wrong -- that she's ignoring her gut.
Notmy, I'm sorry. I hope you find the strength to do what you need. And I really do think you need your own, non-couples therapist.
I see where Elle aaand Stella are going. And i am a bi disgusted about the protect your child comments. Urs, what he is doing is disgusting, but he doesn't SEE that. He needs to work on realizing how wring it is. But that doesn't mean he will be violent or abusive in other ways. You are not ready for divorce yet. Work on your marriage if you want but also work on getting yourself ready for leaving, because unfortunately, there is a good chance it will get to that. I am sorry.
Yeah, the child thing I don't get at all. Pedophilia is a different issue than rape -- a different kind of power/sexual thing.
This man will be teaching the child about sex and relationships. Is it heathly for a man who rapes his wife to be teaching a child about the appropriate way to treat woman or man?
True, Mel, that's a longer-term thing though. I had read it like the child could be in immediate danger. Not so much a long-term threat like THAT. But that's a great point!!
Toledo, you are absolutely right. I know that what I write here is public and will probably receive comments. And I appreciate that everyone cares so much about me when they don't even know who I am.
But as Elle so perceptively stated, I do not want to leave him yet. I need to know that I have done everything I can before I take that step. And getting a divorce because he still did it after ONE joint session, where the therapist was advising on the basis that the last occurrence was two years prior, does not seem like (by my own standards, noone else's) that I am really giving therapy a chance to work.
I get what you are saying, but to me if my H went and did the exact thing (from which he had refrained for 2 years) after I had given in and been intimate with him following our first therapy session I would be done. That shows not only a lack of respect but also that he is going to do what he wants. Regardless of your feelings. Done.
I can understand your collective concern that he might hurt our child or someone else, or that he might turn violent toward me, but that is so so so not his M.O. Years ago, I expressed interest in getting into more S&M stuff and he absolutely did not want to. The couple of times we tried bondage, he was so uncomfortable and not into it.
Somebody mentioned that her H would welcome being woken up to a BJ. I think this is where H's issue is. He wants me to be into it. He lets himself believe I am into it. This is something he has been working on with the therapist.
So again, he puts his own thoughts/beliefs above what you have not only told him personally, but what you have told him in therapy. Why are you okay with that?
I don't think our therapist is incompetent. He has been really hard on H and has made ME more accountable, too, i.e. I will leave him if he does this again. I appreciate the advice to do individual counseling with someone who specializes in rape, though, and I'm going to look into that.
So your therapist is the same for your couple and his individual? That should be a red flag there. That would be a conflict of interest, since he is already working on you both as a couple. And he made you accountable, you will leave him if he does it again. Well, he did. Now what?
Snips, we are religious, but I'm pretty sure that our clergyman would take the same stance as our therapist: that I am justified in leaving. I'm not going to lie, it does play a part in my decision. But I think that there are other factors that are even more significant. A lot of logistics about our lifestyle (don't really want to get into) would mean I would have to make huge changes if I do leave him. So while I may have one stressor removed by exiting, it will cause a whole new level of difficulty and may not make me any happier or better of a mother. This in and of itself does not mean that I can't or won't leave. I do have tentative plans in place if I do need to exit. I am documenting everything and all our paperwork is in order.
Yes, leaving is hard. Very hard. But in the end, is it worth it to you to stay and live like this forever? Do you REALLY think he won't do it again? And you are setting the sample for your child. Do you want them growing up with your H's mentality that this sort of behavior is okay? Your child may not have any clue this is what happens at home, but this is the mentality your child is being exposed to. And YOU are exposing them to the mentality you have to put up with it. Think about that as well.
I think that addressed most of your comments from last night. Thank you all for taking the time and for showing how much you care. It does help to be able to write it all out. I feel a little better, and it helps me talk to H. I may continue to post, maybe not. Please don't feel obligated to comment. I won't be offended. I know that most of you disagree with my plan of action, so I don't expect you to continue beating your head against the wall.
One more thing- leaving may not make you a better mother overall, but it will allow you to live without the fear this could/probably will happen again, and again and again. Your peace of mind and happiness WILL make you not only a better mother, but a better person.
I don't know if Stellas and Elle feel the way they feel because what he is doing is not violent or met with a big a fight. And I am not saying that to be bitchy, I'm just wondering if your thoughts are such as they are because you don't see the act to be as violating as it might if you were fighting desperately to get the man off of you.
I was raped exactly as this poster has been. And I remember feeling like maybe I couldn't call it that because we were sleeping (with clothes on, but had made out some) in a bed together. I remember feeling confused about what was happening and then I couldn't push him off of me. This is not the same as slowly waking your partner up with some foreplay, which I have to tell you has forever been ruined for me.
And it still backs up on me. Over ten years later if I am not really in the mood but trying to get their with H I will suddenly feel like I can't breath.
I tell her to leave because this has not happened once or even twice, but many times. Knowing you have hurt your spouse, left her feeling violated but do it again anyway in the hopes that this time she will feel differently does not show me a person truly willing to change. but that is just my opinion, obviously shaded with my biases.
Post by mypunkinpie on Aug 23, 2012 8:01:24 GMT -5
This whole thing makes me nauseous. I don't have any advice that hasn't already been given. The fact that he didn't like S&M should give you a clue that this isn't about sex, it's about having power over you.
Of COURSE he didn't like S&M! Depending on how it played out, you either played the part of having power over him (which I doubt) or, if you played the submissive part, you consciously GAVE him power over you. Neither of which would have been fun for someone who gets off on raping an innocent, SLEEPING victim.
Some of these responses make me want to cry. Especially because we know THOSE are the ones this poor woman is going to listen to. Because, really, who WANTS to hear that their marriage is beyond fixing. Now she has other people telling her that there's a chance he's a super good guy who can be fixed. Those are the responses she's going to listen to.
Que- that's exactly what terrifies me about the ability to give any advice you want in situations like that. It seems reckless and dangerous because you're playing with someone's safety (and potentially, their life). And yes... it only takes one response to validate what the OP is HOPING is the case (even if she knows deep down that there is no fixing this).
This whole thing makes me nauseous. I don't have any advice that hasn't already been given. The fact that he didn't like S&M should give you a clue that this isn't about sex, it's about having power over you.
Of COURSE he didn't like S&M! Depending on how it played out, you either played the part of having power over him (which I doubt) or, if you played the submissive part, you consciously GAVE him power over you. Neither of which would have been fun for someone who gets off on raping an innocent, SLEEPING victim.
THIS. OMG this. Please don't think that him not being into S&M means he is not dangerous.
Look, my only advice is that it's her decision to make. I don't disagree she should leave him. I even said I would personally leave him. But I do disagree with the abject "HOW COULD YOU NOT CALL 911 -OMG HE IS GOING TO RAPE YOUR CHILD" posts that crept in. We don't need to turn her into a bad /irresponsible person for trying to work this out with the help of a professional. She knows him. The therapist knows him. We do not.
AE, I am so so sorry you are going through this. I wonder if even you realize the severity of this situation. You use phrases like, "I woke up and he was having sex with me," instead of "I woke up to him raping me." I know you have said you know it's rape, but do you REALLY?
Also, someone said one more time is too much. ONE TIME AT ALL IS TOO MUCH.
You came here saying it hasn't happened in a long time and if it did, you would be done. Then you go to counseling and he does it AGAIN?? This is sooo fucked up.
I would have serious reservations about seeing a therapist who specializes in converting sex offenders for this problem. OBVIOUSLY he is going to think your H can be fixed. That's his "specialty." I really don't know why you are still seeing this person for both your couples and individual therapy. It is very much a conflict of interest.
I truly don't understand how you think this can be fixed. He is a RAPIST who continues to rape his wife. This is a cycle of abuse that will NOT end until you leave.
“Life is not orderly. No matter how we try to make it so, right in the middle of it lose a leg, fall in love, drop a jar of applesauce.” - Natalie Goldberg
Post by partiallysunny on Aug 23, 2012 8:57:06 GMT -5
I just... hope you make it through this. I'm so sorry it happened again. I agree you need to find a therapist that specializes in rape victims.
All I keep wondering is how, even if he is "cured" by therapy, you could ever trust him. You would live in constant fear that he would do this again. For the rest of your life.
Post by vanillacourage on Aug 23, 2012 9:12:25 GMT -5
OP, what did your DH do/say when you woke up to him raping you? When you say "no, stop", etc does he stop and say "OMG I'm so sorry, I'm sick" and weep in the corner, or does he just keep going?
Please don't let him off the hook by believing that he's doing it because he thinks you're into it or is trying to get you in the mood - you've told him you don't like it, you've said in therapy (and had it validated by a supposedly-neutral third party) that it's rape - and he did it again. That's not an attempt to spice up your love life, that's violence against your wife.
Rapists get off on power and control--In spite of what the OP may think, It's likely not about sex. The husband may not TOUCh the kid, but the fact that he's an abuseive assnugget is going to have long lasting affects on the kid --he will just exercise power and control and mess with the child in other ways.