I'll say too- someone earlier called him selfish. This feels like more than "selfishness", though. He has exhibited a lot of behavior over the years that shows something deeper. Perhaps narcissism? He really doesn't seem capable of thinking of others - especially you.
And there is NO WAY, at least for a normal person, to know that this behavior is OF COURSE going to upset you. If he claims shock, then really, he's either got some defect and/or he's gaslighting you.
It's been alluded too and I have to agree- I feel that there is more to this relationship than just run of the mill friendship. to what degree, I don't know. But there is just no way someone would really let a person like this back into your lives all in the name of "but I want a good buddy to hang out with!".
GOod luck. I hope the talk went ... o.k., whatever that means in this context. And I'll say this too- you need to not be afraid of being painfully honest and MAD with your DH. The fact that you feel you have to be "productive" sounds like you feel you need to coddle your DH on this, that you need to be nice. I think you need to be HONEST. Honesty is going to matter more here than being nice.
I also wonder if there is a lot going on here that has to do with his background as a minister. In that position, you're encouraged to identify, reach out to and maintain close relationships with people who are broken in one way or another -- it's expected that you will be the more functional person in many of your relationships, that you can fix people/help them fix themselves, that there may or may not be much "for you" in any given relationship because it's a pastor/congregant relationship. And that you are also expected to put your family's needs behind pretty much everyone else's, so that you can be available to drop everything at a moment's notice to go pray at a hospital bedside with a family, conduct a funeral service, do an emergency counseling session, etc. and put troubled people first. There's a very potent mix of innate respect/need in how most people see you (even if they disagree with parts of how you do the job), and your family is expected to sacrifice so that you can go be an almost-literal "savior" to others.
I would not be surprised in the least if Mr. Frkls has a broken friend picker as a result of years of that, and also a seriously distorted sense of priorities that has fed into a lot of his decisions over the years that have put his family second at best. What most non-ministry people would consider a dysfunctional relationship probably feels normal to him and I wouldn't underestimate the attraction of being an emotional/spiritual "leader" in a relationship and how that feeds some people's egos -- particularly egos that have taken a beating, which I am positive that his has over the past few years. Maybe maintaining this friendship has both components of that and a hearty "fuck you" to the church -- that even if he doesn't have his old job/position/respect any more, he still has the "friend" at the root of the fight and maybe that feels better than not having either one. Unfortunately, that means he's only thinking about how it feels to him and not at all about frkls. Also unfortunately, I think he has a track record of that. Even if he can verbally acknowledge how his job impacted her over the years, I doubt that he ever really put much thought into how, for example, it limited HER friendships and relationships and the degree to which she could be honest with people, because she was the pastor's wife and had to tread carefully.
I totally agree that he takes frkls and her steadfast support of him for granted. Like a lot of fixers, he's paying zero attention to the relationship that he can always depend on and feels safe with -- and he's doing serious damage to it. I doubt he sees it, because even under new circumstances, part of him expects her to continue being the good pastor's wife and keeping him free to minister to the troubled/do as he sees fit without a requirement to put her/their family at the forefront.
Frkls, I'm really sorry about all of this. FWIW, as unacceptable as his behavior is in this scenario, I don't think this is about a single friendship or even necessarily about this guy in particular. I think this is about the larger battle of transitioning your DH out of the ministry mindset -- one that has shaped his life for years and years and is core to how he sees himself and his relationship with other people, including you -- and to something that is more functional and equitable. He may have a new job, but emotionally he's still the pastor and so the problems that you guys ran into when he WAS a pastor are still persisting. This isn't something that changes overnight, or even over weeks or months. Unless he had gotten out of the ministry of his own accord (which he didn't), it's probably going to take years. I'm not sure if it ever goes away completely, especially if he 1) gets something out of it emotionally and 2) doesn't face consequences that truly put at risk the things he values, in this case his family. The hardest part, perhaps, is that you guys have already lost so much, it may feel like you're piling on him by demanding that he get it together on this front. But damn, hon, you've been in last place with him for so long that it's really hard to hear that you still are. And this thing with this guy truly IS egregious and a betrayal. Mrfrkls can't keep doing what he's doing and still have a functioning family. He may be dealing with a lot, but he HAS to start seeing this or the damage will be irreparable. I hope he can see that.
Are there any, I dunno, support groups (online, maybe?) for ex-clergy? Can you guys do some counseling sessions together to address some of these issues? I worry about him going all counselor/pastor-knows-best on you if you try to hash it out without a third party who will see these things more clearly than he does.
(I also totally relate to trying to put things into calm and reasonable words because getting angry rarely gets me anywhere with DH, however justified it might be. We're still cooling off from a fight over the weekend and it sucks.)
Post by speckledfrog on Mar 30, 2016 10:51:26 GMT -5
Is "thinking of you" code for "any updates yet?" Are the years of knowing frkls on the board coloring my view? I don't think this has gotten to the point of needing to copy financial records and asking around for attorney recommendations. Oh, her H definitely did a super shitty thing, but some of the responses seem strange to me.
Is "thinking of you" code for "any updates yet?" Are you years of knowing frkls on the board coloring my view? I don't think this has gotten to the point of needing to copy financial records and asking around for attorney recommendations. Oh, her H definitely did a super shitty thing, but some of the responses seem strange to me.
Idk, mine just meant that I hope the conversation went well last night, and that she's doing ok this morning.
I don't know the back story and I have no idea what bunny boiler means, but just with the hints dropped here, wtf? This is insane. Why would he hang out with this person? I was also thinking of @sloanpeterson 's situation. It's like exactly the same problem. I hope you were able to have a productive discussion with your H last night.
Glenn Close in Fatal Attraction. She boiled Michael Douglas' daughter's bunny in a pot on their stove because she was pissed at him.
She posted here last night and was clearly very upset, so it's not strange for people who were involved last night to want to let her know that she's on their minds. I mean, of course we also are asking for updates, because it's ML, but I don't find it odd.
If a friend and I were texting about this last night, and then she went radio silent, I would likely shoot her a text today saying "hey, you've been on my mind. I hope everything went okay when he got home."
Is "thinking of you" code for "any updates yet?" Are the years of knowing frkls on the board coloring my view? I don't think this has gotten to the point of needing to copy financial records and asking around for attorney recommendations. Oh, her H definitely did a super shitty thing, but some of the responses seem strange to me.
Really? Did you read the dog walking post?
Maybe my ticker for "normal responses" is way off because of this board.
Is "thinking of you" code for "any updates yet?" Are the years of knowing frkls on the board coloring my view? I don't think this has gotten to the point of needing to copy financial records and asking around for attorney recommendations. Oh, her H definitely did a super shitty thing, but some of the responses seem strange to me.
Really? Did you read the dog walking post?
Maybe my ticker for "normal responses" is way off because of this board.
And most of the time, when people post about H issues, it starts with "this is so shitty" and within a few pages escalates to "Here is my divorce lawyer's phone number, pack his shit right now". I know I've been there, lol.
And most of the time, when people post about H issues, it starts with "this is so shitty" and within a few pages escalates to "Here is my divorce lawyer's phone number, pack his shit right now". I know I've been there, lol.
Yeah, but we all know it leads to hot, passionate sex for you two, it's just how you operate. lol
Is "thinking of you" code for "any updates yet?" Are the years of knowing frkls on the board coloring my view?
Probably. Is there something wrong with that? I think knowing a poster for years leads to being more invested and of course people are gong to want to know how it wrapped up last night.
I thought it was frkls. I also must not be remembering the role this guy played in all of that because I thought he was also an innocent party, then turned totally stalker WHICH IS STILL BAD and Mr. Frkls is in the wrong 100%. I'm just thinking I'm missing a big part of the story.
Anyway, I'm sorry you're going through this, Frkls. You of all people deserve some fucking peace and quiet.
Is "thinking of you" code for "any updates yet?" Are the years of knowing frkls on the board coloring my view? I don't think this has gotten to the point of needing to copy financial records and asking around for attorney recommendations. Oh, her H definitely did a super shitty thing, but some of the responses seem strange to me.
I disagree. this situation is not taking place in a vacuum, it's the latest entry in a long list of selfish behavior by her H. people are naturally concerned.
I mean, they lost their JOBS over this guy. they made complete career changes. this is not a small thing. at all.
I agree and disagree. Maybe it's because I don't think he is inherently a selfish guy. But he does things that are selfish. Does that make sense? Probably not because him going out with the stalker is beyond idiotic. I think litebright brought up some really great points.
They lost their jobs because their old church was insane. This guy was involved, but it wasn't his actions at the time (IIRC) that led to them leaving. I think the church system was broken and someone who was BSC was leading the charge. But he is for sure acting crazy now.
Sometimes I remember when floyd told us that the board reactions to one of her situations were so intense and over the top (out of a place of concern) that it actually made things worse. I guess I was just trying to say that sometimes ML's scale of 1-10 is missing 3-8.
I disagree. this situation is not taking place in a vacuum, it's the latest entry in a long list of selfish behavior by her H. people are naturally concerned.
I mean, they lost their JOBS over this guy. they made complete career changes. this is not a small thing. at all.
I agree and disagree. Maybe it's because I don't think he is inherently a selfish guy. But he does things that are selfish. Does that make sense? Probably not because him going out with the stalker is beyond idiotic. I think litebright brought up some really great points.
They lost their jobs because their old church was insane. This guy was involved, but it wasn't his actions at the time (IIRC) that led to them leaving. I think the church system was broken and someone who was BSC was leading the charge. But he is for sure acting crazy now.
Sometimes I remember when floyd told us that the board reactions to one of her situations were so intense and over the top (out of a place of concern) that it actually made things worse. I guess I was just trying to say that sometimes ML's scale of 1-10 is missing 3-8.
If I was falsely accused of an affair, in a chain of events that had me losing my job and publicly shamed in a community, NO FUCKING WAY would I hang out with the person with whom I was accused of having an affair. EVEN IF IT WASN'T TRUE. At that point, my family would have already been put through so much shit I would not want anything to do with this person. I would want to leave it all behind.
Some of the responses here are over-the-top, but I don't think most are out of line. This wouldn't be a calm, rational discussion with my husband, and I think it's in that frame of mind that many are responding.
So sorry frkls. I hope you had a good talk last night and that he was receptive to how detrimental this is to your marriage.
this is right. it started off as him and when that never took off, she switched to me. by the time we lost jobs and stuff it was firmly me.
the talk last night went well. louder on my end than i anticipated, but it was okay...so much for calm and productive. i told him that i THOUGHT that he was on my side and that he was upset with the way the guy had treated me and he said he was. i yelled, "UNTIL WHEN?" and went from there. he looked like i slapped him. we never yell. even our big mean fights are done at a conversational volume. i got no push-back or explanations and or excuses. just lots of apologies and guarantees that he will cut him off and that this will never happen again. he completely understood and agreed with all of the reasons i said it upset me and how his choosing to maintain this friendship made me feel. he assures me it's over. i'm positive that this will not be an acceptable answer, but that's how it went. i got more apologies and groveling today and he brought me lunch at school. i'm not sure what else to say.
i completely agree that his friend-picker is jacked from years of church relationships and he gets that now. this guy is the saddest, neediest, clingiest person we know. he is in the middle of a horrible divorce and has social anxiety so he doesn't have many other friends. dh also doesn't have many other friends.
a lot of the stuff that was brought up last night, in terms of his selfishness, are things i knew before i got married. i knew when i married a methodist clergyperson that i would be moving all the time. i knew when i married a guy with a kid that there would be custody drama and that we would have to live in Tennessee until she graduated from high school. i knew he had a congenital heart condition. up until we got here, none of our stuff was unexpected, it just sucked. that's not to say that he's NOT selfish, just that i mostly knew what i was getting into.
thanks for everything last night. part of my therapy is figuring out why i don't get appropriately angry. i get sad or guilty or afraid, but not angry. it's unhealthy and i'm aware of it and working on it.
So sorry frkls. I hope you had a good talk last night and that he was receptive to how detrimental this is to your marriage.
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(((hugs))) I'm glad that the talk went well. You are such an amazing person, you deserve to be happy and not stressed/scared/angry. I hope that it's not too hard to keep this guy out of your lives.
I think that's an acceptable answer. I'm glad he didn't fight you because he is wrong on this one and it sounds like he took responsibility for that. I really hope he sticks to it.