CA bans new sales of gas cars by 2035

[plutosmoon]

Aug 26, 2022 9:47:53 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Aug 26, 2022 9:41:33 GMT -5 plutosmoon said:

The reality of rural living is a lot of driving to simply access essential services. My nearest target is 50 miles roundtrip. I'll be driving over 100 miles round trip for mall trip this weekend, there are zero clothing stores closer. I travel a lot just for regular day to day stuff. Even going to certain doctors requires a 200 mile drive. Right now I can travel to Boston for a day trip to a specialist, add in a stop for charging each way and it may suddenly become an overnight which makes it an added cost. I'm not even all that rural compared to some areas of the country where people travel much further distances for groceries and doctors. Think of people in Alaska, Montana, or Texas. Moving to more densly populated areas isn't the solution either, my job is here, in person, you can't just up and move an entire 200+ year old college campus.
Hopefully infrastructure will catch up, but it's not even close to a reality right now, especially for rural communities. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for this to work, but we can't just slap a deadline out there without thinking through the realities of implementation.

WE'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THE REALITIES OF THE IMPLEMENTATION FOR 30 FUCKING YEARS! We're at the point where the changes have to be made or we die. What are you not getting about this?

I agree the change needs to happen, I'm not disagreeing there, I don't think I ever said this shouldn't happen. I want the changes to work, I am questioning the plan for the infrastructure and affordability, as far as I can tell there isn't one. I really don't think it's unreasonable to ask how this will work for those in rural areas and those who are lower income. I'm not sure how we can make the change without having a plan to make it realistic, that's all.

If there is no plans to make it a realistic option, people won't change they'll keep their old cars running, and I'd love nothing more than for people to adopt this change. I've seen no plans for infrastructure in rural areas, even people in larger cities are saying in this very thread there are less than 10 charging stations in their area.

If we want people to change, we need answers to their concerns. We've come a long way with EVs in a short time, but we still have a long way to go to get people in EVs full time.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 26, 2022 10:19:27 GMT -5 plutosmoon said:

Aug 26, 2022 9:47:53 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

WE'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THE REALITIES OF THE IMPLEMENTATION FOR 30 FUCKING YEARS! We're at the point where the changes have to be made or we die. What are you not getting about this?

I agree the change needs to happen, I'm not disagreeing there, I don't think I ever said this shouldn't happen. I want the changes to work, I am questioning the plan for the infrastructure and affordability, as far as I can tell there isn't one. I really don't think it's unreasonable to ask how this will work for those in rural areas and those who are lower income. I'm not sure how we can make the change without having a plan to make it realistic, that's all.

If there is no plans to make it a realistic option, people won't change they'll keep their old cars running, and I'd love nothing more than for people to adopt this change. I've seen no plans for infrastructure in rural areas, even people in larger cities are saying in this very thread there are less than 10 charging stations in their area.

If we want people to change, we need answers to their concerns. We've come a long way with EVs in a short time, but we still have a long way to go to get people in EVs full time.

I'll say this - there have been people working on climate change implications and strategies for decades. Both long range and short range planners. It may feel abrupt, but I assure you that there has been a ton of research and planning going along with every law or mandate passed.

That being said, we're past the point of planning and we're going to have to go. And yes, realistically, it's going to hurt people. Either we wait and not implement and people hurt, or we do something and hopefully less people hurt. There's no way, at this juncture, that we can save everyone. It's too late.

[dutchgirl678]

I also think the fuel cell technology research will continue and when they become mainstream it will be a lot easier as you can just swap out your empty fuel cell for a full one: autovista24.autovistagroup.com/news/namx-plans-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicle-with-swappable-tanks/

I also think it is important to work on cleaner alternatives for planes, trucks, diesel trains, and buses. We already have some electric buses here in OR and I know they are investing in some electric school buses but we need to do more.

[fernweh]

Aug 26, 2022 8:58:46 GMT -5 mskitkat said:

I can think of all sorts of changes that need to happen. Hopefully California pushing this is what gets us there. My concern with buying an EV is the time to charge. If I’m driving from Chicago to Atlanta, that’s a 12 hour drive. Multiple 20 minute charging breaks would be incredibly annoying. There are definitely places I would feel unsafe/don’t want to be trapped for 20 minutes.

I know there are plans in Michigan to trial and electrified road that would charge your vehicle as you drive. Hopefully that works out well and is something that can have widespread implementation.

[mskitkat]

Aug 26, 2022 10:46:01 GMT -5 fernweh said:

Aug 26, 2022 8:58:46 GMT -5 mskitkat said:

I can think of all sorts of changes that need to happen. Hopefully California pushing this is what gets us there. My concern with buying an EV is the time to charge. If I’m driving from Chicago to Atlanta, that’s a 12 hour drive. Multiple 20 minute charging breaks would be incredibly annoying. There are definitely places I would feel unsafe/don’t want to be trapped for 20 minutes.

I know there are plans in Michigan to trial and electrified road that would charge your vehicle as you drive. Hopefully that works out well and is something that can have widespread implementation.

This is the kind of thing I meant! Not “we can’t because X” or “I hope they planned for y” but “I wonder what the new and interesting solutions are going to be.”

[chedifuen]

You don't need a garage to charge, just an outlet. We have two EVs, our 240 charging outlet is on the side of our house, covered, like any external outlet. It works just fine.

[Velar Fricative]

Aug 26, 2022 11:11:41 GMT -5 chedifuen said:

You don't need a garage to charge, just an outlet. We have two EVs, our 240 charging outlet is on the side of our house, covered, like any external outlet. It works just fine.

Deleted, never mind, I misread.

[karinothing]

The infrastructure can change easily someone just needs to do it. You only need an outlet. There is zero reason why you can't have chargers on electrical poles in cities (street lights). LA already did this so others can too. The infrastructure is halfway there already! electrek.co/2019/11/13/la-adds-hundreds-of-ev-chargers-to-streetlights-giving-renters-a-place-to-plug-in/

Folks can also run extension cords from there house out there window and to the street (plenty of people do it here). Also we have a Level 2 charger at our house that we can open to public use (and charge people for). So there is no reason why more folks can't do that. New homes should be built with Level 2 charges just was easily as they are built with regular outlets.

I guess what I am saying is the main infrastructure is already built as it is just electricity and it is everywhere.

As far as range, our car gets almost 300 miles to a charge, which really does cover most people. They have the ability to make batteries bigger. I know the new ford lightning can get up to 320 miles per charge and it should be a popular vehicle with rural crowds. The lucid gets over 500 miles to a charge (but is $$), but regardless the tech is there.

Also it is not clear to me from the articles whether this bans only 100% gas powered cars or PHEVs and hybrids too.

I see the biggest barrier being the cost of EVs. I had high hopes for the climate change bill. It did away with the credit for the vast majority of people who currently buy EVs and for the vast majority of EVs on the market. Hopefully it will push manufactures to build here in America but I don't have that much hope.

[Velar Fricative]

Since it was brought up - Public transportation initiatives would truly be wonderful beyond just the switch to EVs, but I fear that covid really put the death knell into any push for better mass transit in most areas. Perhaps even all areas.

Even with more people WFH, in this area they were likely people who took mass transit like suburban railroads. And many people who don't WFH got used to driving to work if they didn't before, even if the traffic is worse.

While mass transit may not be feasible for rural areas (like EVs as we're discussing here), I hate to put it this way but...aren't we also seeing a trend away from rural areas at least in this country? I'm not saying we need to leave depleted rural areas in a lurch, but I also don't think we can have rural areas dictating critical policies that we need to, well, survive.

[msmerymac]

Aug 26, 2022 9:35:14 GMT -5 fancynewbeesly said:

Aug 26, 2022 9:27:20 GMT -5 macmars45 said:

I'm in central WA state. My city has two charging places in the community with 2-4 slots each. The city would need to add a lot more for EV charging spots to be workable for people.

I am here for any changes that well help climate change.

In our town of 100,000 people in NJ we only have two public places. I definitely think things would have to change to make it realistic for a lot of people.

In Philadelphia you can request a charger to be placed in front of your house. The only problem with that from a community/urban planning standpoint is that street parking is public parking, not meant to serve as a private spot, so it should have a caveat that it can be used for anyone to charge. Kind of like requesting a handicapped spot in front of your house, which you can also do, but in PA it's not reserved specifically for you, but for any car with the correct placard. (In DE, they do have individual spots, which is wild to me.)

Anyway, it's not that difficult to get to a place with a public charger, or several, on each block. It's already happening. 

[wildrice]

Aug 26, 2022 11:11:41 GMT -5 chedifuen said:

You don't need a garage to charge, just an outlet. We have two EVs, our 240 charging outlet is on the side of our house, covered, like any external outlet. It works just fine.

This is true, but still not possible in every townhouse/rowhouse/apartment situation. I live in a townhouse (row of 5 houses) and we don't even have an outlet on the front of our house. Certainly we could hire an electrician to install one, but that won't solve the issue of our car being parked across a sidewalk from our house, so unless we want the liability of someone tripping on it and getting hurt, it's not really possible to put one on our house.

What I would like to see is charging stations installed in our parking lots, but I imagine the cost of that is high and won't happen without being forced or a lot of residents buying electric cars and pushing our HOA. I imagine our situation isn't unique so it will be interesting to see how CA handles this kind of situation. Sounds like it's already happening in some parts of the state.

To be clear, I want an electric vehicle and would support adding charging stations even at a (reasonable) cost. That's why I will be following how this works. Thankfully, we currently have a small, fuel efficient car and don't drive much at all (we've put 26k miles on our car in the almost 3 years we've owned it) so its not super urgent for us, but would be great for all the trucks and SUVs and vans my neighbors have parked in our lot...

[msmerymac]

Aug 26, 2022 10:30:02 GMT -5 dutchgirl678 said:

I also think the fuel cell technology research will continue and when they become mainstream it will be a lot easier as you can just swap out your empty fuel cell for a full one: autovista24.autovistagroup.com/news/namx-plans-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicle-with-swappable-tanks/

I also think it is important to work on cleaner alternatives for planes, trucks, diesel trains, and buses. We already have some electric buses here in OR and I know they are investing in some electric school buses but we need to do more.

PDQ, but I have a client (marketing and advertising) who works on hydrogen fuel cell technology. It's really, really cool and definitely poised to impact consumer transportation. 

[savan]

I was intimidated by EVs until we got one and now I love it. We get about 280 mile range. 300 in the winter, closer to 250 in the summer with the a/c. We have no special charging capabilities. We plug it into a normal outlet in our garage. Any regular outlet will do. Yes, the charging is slow that way but an all night charge is enough to keep us going until we have a weekend day at home.

We save significant money vs gas. SCE provides us special EV time of use rates. It’s 17 cents per kWh from 9pm to 4pm the next day. We charge only within those hours. The car averages 4-5 miles per kWh. Compared to our gas SUV that gets 20 miles to the gallon, that’s what, 68-85 cents per gallon? (Did I math right?). Significant savings.

I will say that I understand the hesitance around road trips. We just took a 300 mile trip and took the gas car. I did notice that only one of the rest stops we stopped at for the dog had charging capability and it wouldn’t be too much fun to hang out there for an hour or two. We could manage if we had to though, and that’s not a normal trip we make.

I would and will absolutely purchase another EV in the future.

[wanderingback]

Aug 26, 2022 12:10:06 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Aug 26, 2022 11:11:41 GMT -5 chedifuen said:

You don't need a garage to charge, just an outlet. We have two EVs, our 240 charging outlet is on the side of our house, covered, like any external outlet. It works just fine.

This is true, but still not possible in every townhouse/rowhouse/apartment situation. I live in a townhouse (row of 5 houses) and we don't even have an outlet on the front of our house. Certainly we could hire an electrician to install one, but that won't solve the issue of our car being parked across a sidewalk from our house, so unless we want the liability of someone tripping on it and getting hurt, it's not really possible to put one on our house.

What I would like to see is charging stations installed in our parking lots, but I imagine the cost of that is high and won't happen without being forced or a lot of residents buying electric cars and pushing our HOA. I imagine our situation isn't unique so it will be interesting to see how CA handles this kind of situation. Sounds like it's already happening in some parts of the state.

To be clear, I want an electric vehicle and would support adding charging stations even at a (reasonable) cost. That's why I will be following how this works. Thankfully, we currently have a small, fuel efficient car and don't drive much at all (we've put 26k miles on our car in the almost 3 years we've owned it) so its not super urgent for us, but would be great for all the trucks and SUVs and vans my neighbors have parked in our lot...

Yes that’s how the charging stations are in cities. The outlet is on the house and then the cord goes across the sidewalk on the ground. The cord is small so from what I’ve seen wouldn’t cause mobility issues for someone in a wheelchair or walker. But yes the other solution is to install outlets on light posts or electric posts.

Eta: the outlet gets installed in your row house. So even if you don’t have one currently that’s how it’s set up and is installed.

[mrsslocombe]

Aug 26, 2022 12:10:06 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Aug 26, 2022 11:11:41 GMT -5 chedifuen said:

You don't need a garage to charge, just an outlet. We have two EVs, our 240 charging outlet is on the side of our house, covered, like any external outlet. It works just fine.

This is true, but still not possible in every townhouse/rowhouse/apartment situation. I live in a townhouse (row of 5 houses) and we don't even have an outlet on the front of our house. Certainly we could hire an electrician to install one, but that won't solve the issue of our car being parked across a sidewalk from our house, so unless we want the liability of someone tripping on it and getting hurt, it's not really possible to put one on our house.

What I would like to see is charging stations installed in our parking lots, but I imagine the cost of that is high and won't happen without being forced or a lot of residents buying electric cars and pushing our HOA. I imagine our situation isn't unique so it will be interesting to see how CA handles this kind of situation. Sounds like it's already happening in some parts of the state.

To be clear, I want an electric vehicle and would support adding charging stations even at a (reasonable) cost. That's why I will be following how this works. Thankfully, we currently have a small, fuel efficient car and don't drive much at all (we've put 26k miles on our car in the almost 3 years we've owned it) so its not super urgent for us, but would be great for all the trucks and SUVs and vans my neighbors have parked in our lot...

I live in a C0-op in Brooklyn and we are working on putting in an EV charging station on the grounds. I think in cities/states/the feds create a program that incentivizes apartment complexes to do it, more and more will. In true NYC co-op fashion, the debate isn't over the cost, but about losing 2+ parking spots to put it in.

I'd like to see the city/state create a program to incentivize private property owners to open up the charging stations to the public. My friend works at a fancy wedding venue in the middle of nowhere and they have the only charging station for miles. But it's on private property so the public can't use it. They've had to call the police when fights have broken out about it. 

[Velar Fricative]

Aug 26, 2022 12:10:06 GMT -5 wildrice said:

Aug 26, 2022 11:11:41 GMT -5 chedifuen said:

You don't need a garage to charge, just an outlet. We have two EVs, our 240 charging outlet is on the side of our house, covered, like any external outlet. It works just fine.

This is true, but still not possible in every townhouse/rowhouse/apartment situation. I live in a townhouse (row of 5 houses) and we don't even have an outlet on the front of our house. Certainly we could hire an electrician to install one, but that won't solve the issue of our car being parked across a sidewalk from our house, so unless we want the liability of someone tripping on it and getting hurt, it's not really possible to put one on our house.

We're in a row of 6 houses and we don't have electric outlets in front of our house either. But somehow this Tesla neighbor was able to get the charging box installed, so I have to believe it's possible. 

[StrawberryBlondie]

I've noticed a huge change around here re: EV charging in the last 5 years. I don't have an EV (I want one, though). When I was last in the market for a car a little.ver 5 years ago there were exactly 0 charging stations between my city and my parents' house and the EVs I was interested in and in my price range at the time only JUST had the range for the trip. So that made going electric basically a non-starter. When I last checked, there were like 5 towns on the way that have them.

DH is going to be in the market for a new car soon and we'll definitely go at least plug in hybrid.

[Saudade]

I just got back from Norway where they have the highest per capita rate of teslas, specifically, and total EV too.

They had super chargers at the top of the mountain. I think we can figure it out.

[carmenere]

Aug 26, 2022 12:49:03 GMT -5 Saudade said:

I just got back from Norway where they have the highest per capita rate of teslas, specifically, and total EV too.

They had super chargers at the top of the mountain. I think we can figure it out.

Can we? Absolutely. Do we have the political will to make it happen? Probably not when half the population are climate science deniers. I assume we will see a lot of investment in EV infrastructure in blue states, but it will take a long time to make it workable for people nationwide.

[Velar Fricative]

Aug 26, 2022 12:49:03 GMT -5 Saudade said:

I just got back from Norway where they have the highest per capita rate of teslas, specifically, and total EV too.

They had super chargers at the top of the mountain. I think we can figure it out.

Impressive, since they’re so oil-rich.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 26, 2022 13:47:22 GMT -5 carmenere said:

Aug 26, 2022 12:49:03 GMT -5 Saudade said:

I just got back from Norway where they have the highest per capita rate of teslas, specifically, and total EV too.

They had super chargers at the top of the mountain. I think we can figure it out.

Can we? Absolutely. Do we have the political will to make it happen? Probably not when half the population are climate science deniers. I assume we will see a lot of investment in EV infrastructure in blue states, but it will take a long time to make it workable for people nationwide.

You're wrong. This study is from 2019. Most people believe that climate change is happening and the government is doing too little to stop it. www.pewresearch.org/science/2019/11/25/u-s-public-views-on-climate-and-energy/

[pixy0stix]

@@@@

I can't let go of people still bringing up the "but think about the poors!" arguments. It's a non-starter. Status quo right now is doing irreparable damage to people. More so than any policy that is trying to fix this shit will ever do.

Take for instance this 2005 (!!) pamphlet explaining how black children are more likely to have asthma that is directly attributed to the environment - www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2014-05/documents/hd_aa_asthma.pdf

[pixy0stix]

Or there's this - 1 in 10 homes in the US were impacted by climate change disasters in 2021 - thehill.com/changing-america/sustainability/infrastructure/595489-one-in-10-homes-in-the-us-affected-by-climate/

ONE IN FUCKING TEN.

[pixy0stix]

Jeebus christ. I'm turning into a boomer, "And another thing!"

I just.. waves hands... what have we been doing while climate scientists have been screaming?

[carmenere]

Aug 26, 2022 14:09:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Aug 26, 2022 13:47:22 GMT -5 carmenere said:

Can we? Absolutely. Do we have the political will to make it happen? Probably not when half the population are climate science deniers. I assume we will see a lot of investment in EV infrastructure in blue states, but it will take a long time to make it workable for people nationwide.

You're wrong. This study is from 2019. Most people believe that climate change is happening and the government is doing too little to stop it. www.pewresearch.org/science/2019/11/25/u-s-public-views-on-climate-and-energy/

This is one of those rare times when I'm happy to be wrong. But there's also a major disconnect between what people believe and what politicians are doing (see also: abortion laws in red states). The GOP has worked to gut the EPA and made deregulation of industry a part of its platform - and people keep voting for them. 

[pixy0stix]

Aug 26, 2022 14:48:28 GMT -5 carmenere said:

Aug 26, 2022 14:09:58 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

You're wrong. This study is from 2019. Most people believe that climate change is happening and the government is doing too little to stop it. www.pewresearch.org/science/2019/11/25/u-s-public-views-on-climate-and-energy/

This is one of those rare times when I'm happy to be wrong. But there's also a major disconnect between what people believe and what politicians are doing (see also: abortion laws in red states). The GOP has worked to gut the EPA and made deregulation of industry a part of its platform - and people keep voting for them. 

Of course, but much like abortion, I think once real consequences (like people's houses burning down, or not having water to cook with) start happening people are going to change their votes. It's not going to be easy, but it will happen.

[mskitkat]

Aug 26, 2022 14:36:22 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jeebus christ. I'm turning into a boomer, "And another thing!"

I just.. waves hands... what have we been doing while climate scientists have been screaming?

If I may recommend a book for you…. I’ve found the author to be really wonderful.

www.amazon.com/Generation-Dread-Finding-Purpose-Climate-ebook/dp/B099WK72SQ/ref=nodl_?dplnkId=3b1d7136-7935-4c70-9c04-ecca6cb0cc88

[pixy0stix]

Aug 26, 2022 15:06:17 GMT -5 mskitkat said:

Aug 26, 2022 14:36:22 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Jeebus christ. I'm turning into a boomer, "And another thing!"

I just.. waves hands... what have we been doing while climate scientists have been screaming?

If I may recommend a book for you…. I’ve found the author to be really wonderful.

www.amazon.com/Generation-Dread-Finding-Purpose-Climate-ebook/dp/B099WK72SQ/ref=nodl_?dplnkId=3b1d7136-7935-4c70-9c04-ecca6cb0cc88

I don't have grief. I don't have anxiety. I have a hell of a lot of anger, and somewhat acceptance, as we approach the end. We're at the point in Don't Look Up where he is driving to have his one last supper with his family. It's inevitable, and while the world won't be completely obliterated like the movie, it's not going to look anything like the world we were born into.

[gt7301b]

Sure there are plenty of challenges to getting to the 100% electric, but 2035 is actually a long way away.  As more electric cars are sold the charging footprint will increase and range of vehicles.  A lot of R&D can take place over that time.  More alternatives to TESLA will also help drive down the cost of EVs. 

[jlt19]

I am curious how Californias grid is planning for this. When I worked for our electric company, it was (still is I’m sure) a problem to be able to close down the fossil fuel plants by xyz dates but produce more electricity due to higher # of EVs.

The wind and solar farms are being built, but they don’t have the technology to store the energy yet. And hydro isn’t reliable with all of the droughts.

I know they had plenty of time to prepare. I know this all should have been done long ago. But the reality is, they didn’t. And it’ll be a hell of a ride with astronomical electric prices or rolling blackouts.