CA bans new sales of gas cars by 2035

[minzy]

Editorial about the significance of yesterday’s vote in California to ban new sales of gas cars by 2035: www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2022-08-26/california-gas-car-ban-zero-emission?_amp=true

There will be issues for sure but this will be transformative elsewhere too since CA has such a huge impact on the auto industry.

[msmerymac]

I do wonder how this will affect the cost as well, since plenty of people can't afford new non-gas vehicles now.

[formerlyak]

If you have a gas vehicle you can still use it. You won’t be forced to switch that year. And I think used cars will still be available to buy. But new cars must be alternative fuel. My family (not me) is big into cars and have been following along for a while. Several economy electric vehicles are in the works. There will be many more affordable options in 10 years when this happens. We have one EV now and have done the math. It costs us less to charge it than it cost for gas, even before the gas prices skyrocketed. DH is good about setting the car to only charge in the middle of the night when it’s least expensive (we have time of use pricing).

[af1212]

Aug 26, 2022 7:35:06 GMT -5 msmerymac said:

I do wonder how this will affect the cost as well, since plenty of people can't afford new non-gas vehicles now.

Yes I’m hoping it brings them down quite a bit - we would like to buy an EV but the cost is just so much.

[wildrice]

I will be interested to see how they make this work for townhouse/apartment dwellers who don't have the ability to charge in their personal garage. I live all the way across the country, but I'd love to someday get an electric vehicle but a lack of charging ability seems like a big drawback. Hopefully California will lead the way for making this part more accessible, too.

[plutosmoon]

I want to love these kind of changes, but I have so many concerns. Where is the electricity coming from? The grid is already overtaxed. How will lower income folks afford this change? Electric vehicle credits aren't refundable so those of us with low or no tax liability don't benefit. My current car cost me 24k new in 2019, it has AWD because my old sedan couldn't climb my mountain road in winter, a comparable electric car would probably cost me double, completely unaffordable. Maybe there will be economy versions, but will they be compact cars that are a challenge for those of us that live in mountainous areas? What about range in cold climates? My electricity costs around 25 cents a kwh, I'm not entirely sure there will be any "fuel" savings to offset the cost of the car at my electric prices. What about charging times when traveling?
I know the changes are still 13 years out, so there is time, but I really worry about those in lower socieo ecomonic places. If we don't start addressing these cost and affordability issues alongside our environmental initiative s, we will lose more lower income voters to Republicans.

[pixy0stix]

I agree that we need to address the cost and affordability issues. That being said, this is a change that needs to happen. We're (the US and our lifestyle choices) killing hundreds of people daily because of climate change. This needs to happen. Is it going to be painful? Yes. It's that or watch thousands of people die and become homeless because we can't get our shit together and would rather wring our hands.

So. ::shrugs::

[mskitkat]

I can think of all sorts of changes that need to happen. Hopefully California pushing this is what gets us there. My concern with buying an EV is the time to charge. If I’m driving from Chicago to Atlanta, that’s a 12 hour drive. Multiple 20 minute charging breaks would be incredibly annoying. There are definitely places I would feel unsafe/don’t want to be trapped for 20 minutes.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 26, 2022 8:58:46 GMT -5 mskitkat said:

I can think of all sorts of changes that need to happen. Hopefully California pushing this is what gets us there. My concern with buying an EV is the time to charge. If I’m driving from Chicago to Atlanta, that’s a 12 hour drive. Multiple 20 minute charging breaks would be incredibly annoying. There are definitely places I would feel unsafe/don’t want to be trapped for 20 minutes.

How often does this drive happen vs your daily commute? People need to reframe their discussion to what they do daily and not what they do once a year.

[plutosmoon]

Aug 26, 2022 8:46:15 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

I agree that we need to address the cost and affordability issues. That being said, this is a change that needs to happen. We're (the US and our lifestyle choices) killing hundreds of people daily because of climate change. This needs to happen. Is it going to be painful? Yes. It's that or watch thousands of people die and become homeless because we can't get our shit together and would rather wring our hands.

So. ::shrugs::

I'm not saying do nothing, but people die of poverty as well, my community already has a high homeless rate, I see it everyday. Someone might be able to pull together a few dollars for gas in their car to get to work if they are struggling, but they can't charge their car if the electric was turned off due to non payment. I live in a rural low income community that currently votes overwhelmingly blue. Simple changes like a refundable tax credit, or access to low cost charging in disadvantaged communities could be added to offset the high cost of electric cars. If a family qualifies for any sort of government benefits, give them access to free charging.

If the priority is truly to combat climate change, the government needs to help those who will be impacted the most economically, or they will stop supporting these very important changes. People panic at the cost of change, so provide an initiative or 2 at the time you announce this, otherwise they stop supporting it altogether. It's easy to shrug, but I refuse to give up on low income voters who are on the edge, the democrats really can't afford to lose their votes.

[mskitkat]

Aug 26, 2022 9:03:19 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Aug 26, 2022 8:58:46 GMT -5 mskitkat said:

I can think of all sorts of changes that need to happen. Hopefully California pushing this is what gets us there. My concern with buying an EV is the time to charge. If I’m driving from Chicago to Atlanta, that’s a 12 hour drive. Multiple 20 minute charging breaks would be incredibly annoying. There are definitely places I would feel unsafe/don’t want to be trapped for 20 minutes.

How often does this drive happen vs your daily commute? People need to reframe their discussion to what they do daily and not what they do once a year.

Well for me, I can make these trips up to once a month. My daily commute is also unusual since I’m in sales with a driving territory. I am often in areas where I am vaguely safe, but a coworker might not be. Think in the vicinity of militia training camps.

[suburbanzookeeper]

Aug 26, 2022 9:03:19 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Aug 26, 2022 8:58:46 GMT -5 mskitkat said:

I can think of all sorts of changes that need to happen. Hopefully California pushing this is what gets us there. My concern with buying an EV is the time to charge. If I’m driving from Chicago to Atlanta, that’s a 12 hour drive. Multiple 20 minute charging breaks would be incredibly annoying. There are definitely places I would feel unsafe/don’t want to be trapped for 20 minutes.

How often does this drive happen vs your daily commute? People need to reframe their discussion to what they do daily and not what they do once a year.

This is why we kept our Prius vs. upgrading to a larger vehicle over the years. The number of times the what if scenario came into play were maybe less than a handful of times a year. 

There are some questions about accessibility in the event of a large scale emergency (ie. evacuating a large fire) but I know that there is work on that from the state emergency services end. If a major earthquake happens we're fucked no matter what where we are geographically. 

[sonrisa]

Aug 26, 2022 8:28:47 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I will be interested to see how they make this work for townhouse/apartment dwellers who don't have the ability to charge in their personal garage. I live all the way across the country, but I'd love to someday get an electric vehicle but a lack of charging ability seems like a big drawback. Hopefully California will lead the way for making this part more accessible, too.

a lot of townhouses around here have charging stations in the parking lot as do many workplaces and most grocery stores, target, public buildings like library’s and parks, etc. I see a lot of cars charging while parked outside on the street. obviously that won’t be enough, but there is a decent start on charging infrastructure around.

[goldengirlz]

Aug 26, 2022 9:08:13 GMT -5 sonrisa said:

Aug 26, 2022 8:28:47 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I will be interested to see how they make this work for townhouse/apartment dwellers who don't have the ability to charge in their personal garage. I live all the way across the country, but I'd love to someday get an electric vehicle but a lack of charging ability seems like a big drawback. Hopefully California will lead the way for making this part more accessible, too.

a lot of townhouses around here have charging stations in the parking lot as do many workplaces and most grocery stores, target, public buildings like library’s and parks, etc. I see a lot of cars charging while parked outside on the street. obviously that won’t be enough, but there is a decent start on charging infrastructure around.

Where we are, yes, but once you get out of the major metro areas, less so.

The other point above about the cost of electricity is a good one too. I have not saved money having an EV but my last car didn’t use a lot of gas. Gas costs a small fortune here but PG&E isn’t so great to deal with either.

I’m less concerned about taxing the grid though because we are making progress on using an increasing amount of renewable energy.

Allll that said, I’m excited to see California take a leadership position on this. I think the issues above are surmountable — and if any state has the political will to make them happen, we do.

(I also see the point about road trips but I think those concerns can be alleviated too with longer-range batteries and better charging infrastructure. The higher-end cars are getting there but they need to be incentivized to open up their charging networks.)

[macmars45]

I'm in central WA state. My city has two charging places in the community with 2-4 slots each. The city would need to add a lot more for EV charging spots to be workable for people.

I am here for any changes that well help climate change.

[fancynewbeesly]

Aug 26, 2022 9:27:20 GMT -5 macmars45 said:

I'm in central WA state. My city has two charging places in the community with 2-4 slots each. The city would need to add a lot more for EV charging spots to be workable for people.

I am here for any changes that well help climate change.

In our town of 100,000 people in NJ we only have two public places. I definitely think things would have to change to make it realistic for a lot of people.

[plutosmoon]

Aug 26, 2022 9:03:19 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Aug 26, 2022 8:58:46 GMT -5 mskitkat said:

I can think of all sorts of changes that need to happen. Hopefully California pushing this is what gets us there. My concern with buying an EV is the time to charge. If I’m driving from Chicago to Atlanta, that’s a 12 hour drive. Multiple 20 minute charging breaks would be incredibly annoying. There are definitely places I would feel unsafe/don’t want to be trapped for 20 minutes.

How often does this drive happen vs your daily commute? People need to reframe their discussion to what they do daily and not what they do once a year.

The reality of rural living is a lot of driving to simply access essential services. My nearest target is 50 miles roundtrip. I'll be driving over 100 miles round trip for mall trip this weekend, there are zero clothing stores closer. I travel a lot just for regular day to day stuff. Even going to certain doctors requires a 200 mile drive. Right now I can travel to Boston for a day trip to a specialist, add in a stop for charging each way and it may suddenly become an overnight which makes it an added cost. I'm not even all that rural compared to some areas of the country where people travel much further distances for groceries and doctors. Think of people in Alaska, Montana, or Texas. Moving to more densly populated areas isn't the solution either, my job is here, in person, you can't just up and move an entire 200+ year old college campus.
Hopefully infrastructure will catch up, but it's not even close to a reality right now, especially for rural communities. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for this to work, but we can't just slap a deadline out there without thinking through the realities of implementation.

[pixy0stix]

It's not about the cost of electricity. You make the change or we die. That's it. That's the post.

Y'all. I post articles that very concretely lay out how the world is completely and utterly fucked in the next 20 years, and I don't get a single response. We're talking about extinction level events.

Then a post about a simple concrete change that is going to happen to make a big impact, and all we get are, "but but we can't do that because of xyz!" I know it's because the scale of the impacts of climate change can't be comprehended, but for fucks sake.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 26, 2022 9:41:33 GMT -5 plutosmoon said:

Aug 26, 2022 9:03:19 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

How often does this drive happen vs your daily commute? People need to reframe their discussion to what they do daily and not what they do once a year.

The reality of rural living is a lot of driving to simply access essential services. My nearest target is 50 miles roundtrip. I'll be driving over 100 miles round trip for mall trip this weekend, there are zero clothing stores closer. I travel a lot just for regular day to day stuff. Even going to certain doctors requires a 200 mile drive. Right now I can travel to Boston for a day trip to a specialist, add in a stop for charging each way and it may suddenly become an overnight which makes it an added cost. I'm not even all that rural compared to some areas of the country where people travel much further distances for groceries and doctors. Think of people in Alaska, Montana, or Texas. Moving to more densly populated areas isn't the solution either, my job is here, in person, you can't just up and move an entire 200+ year old college campus.
Hopefully infrastructure will catch up, but it's not even close to a reality right now, especially for rural communities. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for this to work, but we can't just slap a deadline out there without thinking through the realities of implementation.

WE'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THE REALITIES OF THE IMPLEMENTATION FOR 30 FUCKING YEARS! We're at the point where the changes have to be made or we die. What are you not getting about this?

[pixy0stix]

People are going to have to change. Commutes are going to have to change. No amount of arguing is going to change that fact. We're fucked. So severely fucked that I can't even have a nice conversation about this anymore.

[wanderingback]

I live in 2 large cities and I have seen a small handful of chargers set up on the side walk outside of apartments/row homes. I think there was a controversy in 1 city about letting people request more, but I can't remember the details, going to try to find the article again.
It'll definitely be interesting to see how the infrastructure changes to accommodate this for apartment and row house dwellers.

Will charging ultimately get faster?

And since this is coming out of California, is there any talks of making their public transportation system better? That seems like it'd also be a good thing to tackle in the fight against climate change in the long term. Why can't the US get convenient public transportation together?

My dad has an electric car and he's been happy with it so far and he does monthly take longer trips and it's worked out fine.
I don't have a car and don't plan to get a car, but will be following this closely.

[wanderingback]

Also, as someone who likes to frame my work as rooted in reproductive justice this is definitely a win for Black people since we suffer a lot of the negative health consequences from pollution in urban areas.

The article states: "Phasing out gas-powered cars is expected to slash planet-warming and smog-forming emissions over the next two decades, prevent more than 1,200 early deaths from air pollution and offer the greatest health benefits to people living near freeways and other transportation hubs, including low-income communities of color."

[pixy0stix]

Aug 26, 2022 9:55:55 GMT -5 wanderingback said:

Also, as someone who likes to frame my work as rooted in reproductive justice this is definitely a win for Black people since we suffer a lot of the negative health consequences from pollution in urban areas.

The article states: "Phasing out gas-powered cars is expected to slash planet-warming and smog-forming emissions over the next two decades, prevent more than 1,200 early deaths from air pollution and offer the greatest health benefits to people living near freeways and other transportation hubs, including low-income communities of color."

Exactly, and that's what angers me when we start talking about lower income and black/POC communities. They're ALREADY struggling and living with health issues due to climate change in far greater numbers with far more severity than someone who is worrying about what their daily commute is going to look like. Their current daily commute is already impacting those communities FAR MORE than what this law is going to do. 

[mskitkat]

Aug 26, 2022 9:49:19 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

People are going to have to change. Commutes are going to have to change. No amount of arguing is going to change that fact. We're fucked. So severely fucked that I can't even have a nice conversation about this anymore.

I do actually agree with you completely. I see California forcing the issue as a good thing. I’m in the coatings industry. We would still be using all sorts of toxic crap in interior paint if states like California didn’t set incredibly low VOC standards. Companies won’t do a blessed thing without being forced. Regulations drive innovation.

[Velar Fricative]

Aug 26, 2022 8:28:47 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I will be interested to see how they make this work for townhouse/apartment dwellers who don't have the ability to charge in their personal garage. I live all the way across the country, but I'd love to someday get an electric vehicle but a lack of charging ability seems like a big drawback. Hopefully California will lead the way for making this part more accessible, too.

I've got a ways to go before my current gas car dies, but I know I want my next car to be an EV but don't really understand the infrastructure yet. I live in a rowhouse without a garage. One neighbor who lives in an identical house, attached to the neighbors on both sides like my house (and unlike our end unit neighbors) has a Tesla and affixed some sort of charging box to his home's siding to charge the car. You can barely notice it. I have no idea what it is and how much it costs, but it was nice to see that it's possible to charge at home without a garage (but I don't want a Tesla so hopefully the charging boxes exist for other EVs). 

[mskitkat]

My dream is to see an investment in rail infrastructure in order to solve the road trip issue. I do not actually like 12-14 hour drives, but I can’t afford plane tickets for as often as I make them.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 26, 2022 10:01:24 GMT -5 Velar Fricative said:

Aug 26, 2022 8:28:47 GMT -5 wildrice said:

I will be interested to see how they make this work for townhouse/apartment dwellers who don't have the ability to charge in their personal garage. I live all the way across the country, but I'd love to someday get an electric vehicle but a lack of charging ability seems like a big drawback. Hopefully California will lead the way for making this part more accessible, too.

I've got a ways to go before my current gas car dies, but I know I want my next car to be an EV but don't really understand the infrastructure yet. I live in a rowhouse without a garage. One neighbor who lives in an identical house, attached to the neighbors on both sides like my house (and unlike our end unit neighbors) has a Tesla and affixed some sort of charging box to his home's siding to charge the car. You can barely notice it. I have no idea what it is and how much it costs, but it was nice to see that it's possible to charge at home without a garage (but I don't want a Tesla so hopefully the charging boxes exist for other EVs). 

Yes, they do. In fact, all car manufacturers except Tesla, have agreed on standard chargers. Just another reason I hate Tesla, but that's another rant.

Something to keep in mind, all new single family houses are required by the International Building Code to have the electrical for chargers wired in. Now, there's lots of caveats to that, up to including there are large areas of the country that have not updated their building codes or simply do not enforce them.

[wanderingback]

Also, I was thinking about how life pretty much changed overnight due to covid. Working from home, shorter commutes, less in person business meetings where you're flying across country for a 1 hour meeting, etc.
So yeah we make change when forced/the situation is dire, which is where we are unfortunately.

Of course there are certain people that need SUVs, need to commute 300 miles daily, etc, but that's not everyone. Gas guzzling SUVs are everywhere around here and we certainly aren't in the mountains and not getting 20 feet of snow multiple times throughout the winter. So yeah some people def need to be forced to make change.

[Deleted]

Aug 26, 2022 9:47:53 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

Aug 26, 2022 9:41:33 GMT -5 plutosmoon said:

The reality of rural living is a lot of driving to simply access essential services. My nearest target is 50 miles roundtrip. I'll be driving over 100 miles round trip for mall trip this weekend, there are zero clothing stores closer. I travel a lot just for regular day to day stuff. Even going to certain doctors requires a 200 mile drive. Right now I can travel to Boston for a day trip to a specialist, add in a stop for charging each way and it may suddenly become an overnight which makes it an added cost. I'm not even all that rural compared to some areas of the country where people travel much further distances for groceries and doctors. Think of people in Alaska, Montana, or Texas. Moving to more densly populated areas isn't the solution either, my job is here, in person, you can't just up and move an entire 200+ year old college campus.
Hopefully infrastructure will catch up, but it's not even close to a reality right now, especially for rural communities. Don't get me wrong, I'd love for this to work, but we can't just slap a deadline out there without thinking through the realities of implementation.

WE'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THE REALITIES OF THE IMPLEMENTATION FOR 30 FUCKING YEARS! We're at the point where the changes have to be made or we die. What are you not getting about this?

I don’t think people are saying “don’t change”, I think they’re saying “Awesome, I just really hope they’ve thought about X, Y, and Z.”

There are going to be unforeseen 2nd and 3rd order effects. People will bring gas cars to California. People with EVs will move or travel to places where there isn’t the charging infrastructure. Hopefully 13 years is enough time to think through and have a plan for this.

[pixy0stix]

Aug 26, 2022 10:13:15 GMT -5 @villainv said:

Aug 26, 2022 9:47:53 GMT -5 pixy0stix said:

WE'VE BEEN THINKING ABOUT THE REALITIES OF THE IMPLEMENTATION FOR 30 FUCKING YEARS! We're at the point where the changes have to be made or we die. What are you not getting about this?

I don’t think people are saying “don’t change”, I think they’re saying “Awesome, I just really hope they’ve thought about X, Y, and Z.”

There are going to be unforeseen 2nd and 3rd order effects. People will bring gas cars to California. People with EVs will move or travel to places where there isn’t the charging infrastructure. Hopefully 13 years is enough time to think through and have a plan for this.

My hometown in the middle of nowhere NE has people driving electric vehicles. I tend to think the liberal smokescreen of "but what about" is just that, a smokescreen so people can keep doing what they want. It happens with every big change. We'll just have to deal with the fall out. 

Weirdly, the only time it didn't happen was when CFCs ripped giant holes in the ozone and the world collectively decided to not worry about the impacts of stopping their use and just did it. /sidetangent