@Will you watch the new Duggar documentary?

[shauni27]

Jun 8, 2023 17:59:48 GMT -5 momof2ms said:

Newp! Jill and the other sisters are just doing things like this to push their other new cults and also their anti-gay agendas.

I was just talking about this today. Like, great, good job Jill for leaving a cult! But you are still very problematic, no??

[sakoro]

Jun 8, 2023 15:05:55 GMT -5 gemini79 said:

Jun 8, 2023 14:49:22 GMT -5 @villainv said:

I think you’re describing the difference between boys and girls.

I thought of that as I posted and I think that is largely true, but if I recall correctly, they interviewed ex members that were members of the Joshua group that were female and had worked in DC?

But, overall I agree 👍 and it's messed up.

They probably handpick the brightest kids and give them crash courses to catch up on civics, writing, speaking and enough math/ logic to get a decent score on the GRE or LSAT.

I’m sure the girls will still be expected to marry young, have tons or kids and still make it to the Supreme Court a la Amy Comey Barrett who was in a different (Catholic) cult People of Praise.

[sakoro]

Jun 8, 2023 11:43:49 GMT -5 bugandbibs said:

Jun 6, 2023 21:15:55 GMT -5 okla said:

We finished both this and the Hillsong doc this weekend and fuck, man. I’m starting to think that churches are just created to prey on the vulnerable.

I knew most of the stuff in the Duggar doc, but my husband knew nothing and was shocked. He grew up devout Catholic but had since left the church, and had never heard of the Duggars until Josh’s trial.

I struggle with this.  I am a deeply religious person from a faith standpoint, but I am very anti most organized churches because of the abuse and misogyny that runs rampant.  Once the organization becomes more important than the people the power structure is impossible to overcome.

I know what you mean! I’ve seen too much abuse of power both in the mainstream churches (financial fraud and misuse in the Episcopal school where my mom was a teacher) and these other examples like the Mormon’s massive billion dollar investment fund, Catholic abuse scandals, Southern Baptist abuse scandals, that Hillsong documentary… I miss the community that comes with a church, but I feel like I can’t trust religious leaders not to lie and manipulate.

[pugz]

ATI kids aren't going to college by and large. They are too poor or not allowed at secular universities. Maybe some go to Bob Jones or Liberty but keep in mind there are still TONS of conservative religious homeschoolers that use programs like Classical Conversations or Charlotte Mason models that do go on to those colleges, boys and girls. Patrick Henry is a more classical university so they attract students that were raised in that kind of homeschooling environment. Not ATI.

[pugz]

oh also Jill's book had so many pre-orders they somehow moved the publish date up by 4 months. Not sure how that works but it comes out in September now vs. January.

[msmerymac]

Jun 9, 2023 9:14:37 GMT -5 shauni27 said:

Jun 8, 2023 17:59:48 GMT -5 momof2ms said:

Newp! Jill and the other sisters are just doing things like this to push their other new cults and also their anti-gay agendas.

I was just talking about this today. Like, great, good job Jill for leaving a cult! But you are still very problematic, no??

Her husband was also in a fight with TLC a few years back for "promoting" Jazz Jennings simply because she's trans. 

They're still MAGA, homophobes, transphobes, and sexist. 

[mirabelle]

Jun 9, 2023 12:48:01 GMT -5 pugz said:

ATI kids aren't going to college by and large. They are too poor or not allowed at secular universities. Maybe some go to Bob Jones or Liberty but keep in mind there are still TONS of conservative religious homeschoolers that use programs like Classical Conversations or Charlotte Mason models that do go on to those colleges, boys and girls. Patrick Henry is a more classical university so they attract students that were raised in that kind of homeschooling environment. Not ATI.

This is what just baffles me so they want to "rule the world," but don't see how important a formal education is to furthering their agenda?

Also are boys and girls educated the same? Does anyone know how that works/worked in the Duggar household specifically?

Like they encourage having an obscene amount of children to grow up and do what exactly without an education? I feel like I'm missing something.

I will not be buying Jill's book, but will get on the waiting list at the library as soon as possible.

[scm1011]

Jun 9, 2023 12:48:01 GMT -5 pugz said:

ATI kids aren't going to college by and large. They are too poor or not allowed at secular universities. Maybe some go to Bob Jones or Liberty but keep in mind there are still TONS of conservative religious homeschoolers that use programs like Classical Conversations or Charlotte Mason models that do go on to those colleges, boys and girls. Patrick Henry is a more classical university so they attract students that were raised in that kind of homeschooling environment. Not ATI.

Kind of a sidebar but my BFF from growing up “found God” in college (at our flagship state school, not a religious school) and now homeschools her 3 kids with Charlotte Mason. The last week she has been posting defenses of CM amid “mainstream attacks” and I wasn’t sure what the deal was with this model. It makes me sad to hear it’s in the “conservative Christian religious homeschooling” bucket (although I guess I shouldn’t be surprised). This whole situation blows my mind since in high school she was super progressive.

[sakoro]

Jun 9, 2023 14:12:23 GMT -5 mirabelle said:

This is what just baffles me so they want to "rule the world," but don't see how important a formal education is to furthering their agenda?

Also are boys and girls educated the same? Does anyone know how that works/worked in the Duggar household specifically?

Like they encourage having an obscene amount of children to grow up and do what exactly without an education? I feel like I'm missing something.

I wonder about that too. This model would work in an agricultural or manufacturing based economy but there aren’t as many unskilled jobs available anymore in those sectors because much of the labor been replaced by machines. Jobs like working in a slather house won’t support a family of 12+ even if you’re reusing hand-me-down clothes and living on tatortot casserole.

Seems like the leaders are all old white men who last had to look for a job in the 1970s and just understand how much more expensive a stable family life is. Maybe they just don’t care about how much these kids are going to suffer? The end times are near anyways. 🤷‍♀️

As for running for office, apparently people don’t care about qualifications anymore- just how loud you can yell. That’s how we are getting these insane abortion laws that don’t take ectopic pregnancies into account.

[basilosaurus]

My aunt briefly home schooled because in her country (not US and tiny island) they would not deal with my cousin's dyslexia. She used a beka from Pensacola Christian College (duggars approve), which is super fundie but also what the local schools used.

Even math questions for 2nd grade would be somehow bible based. And still enforced gender roles. Like, Susie needs to pull out the chair for 5 Johnnies according to psalm whatever word problems. Aunt certainly did not teach the "science" parts. ffs, she's had the cover on national geographic! So I know about it from her bitching about the pathetic coursework when I was a teen.

I also know about it from my lifelong friends (same island and country) in their public school who would tell me about how they learned to answer questions about evolution for American tests and how it was all a lie. Meanwhile I'm studying for an AP bio exam. This is not an exaggeration as that exact scenario happened. They were taught to be proud to hoodwink the secular tests. At the time they could legally quit school at age 14. My closest friend quit at 13 and then went to teach preschool.

SOTDRT (school of the dining room table, for those who haven't been following these nutters for years) is very weak, gendered, biblical-ish (they dont teach the whole rapey history). And there is zero oversight.

[chickadee77]

I'm sad at the bad press this is giving homeschool overall. It can be an amazing experience, and isn't always rooted in Fundamentalism. I belong to a ton of secular homeschool groups, and the movement is growing since covid, school shootings, book banning, etc. There are also a lot of secular curricula that use Charlotte Mason as a basis, but eliminate the religious aspects.

I know there are a ton of fundie homeschoolers (my sister is one - she, in particular, is all in on "classical education," which seemed like a good thing until I actually looked at it it was like, nope - religious drivel).

I think (I hope) most on this board would realize this, and I know this is part of a fundie thread, so I'm hoping that's why people are painting with such broad strokes. Public school can be awesome, but it's not always, and there are ways to HS that don't include indoctrinating your kids into a cult.

[basilosaurus]

Yes there is secular home school. I think we all know that especially since pandemic forced people.

But the movement is very fundagelical.

[rubytue]

chickadee77, I think the discussion started with the ATI homeschooling program and moved on from that. Of course it’s not all like that, but practically, there are a lot of people homeschooling with those programs. But yes, not all.

I had some good friends in high school that were home schooled. And Quaker. Totally admit this made me think quakers were fundies, like the home schoolers at my southern Baptist church, which couldn’t be further from the truth. They homeschooled because the oldest was not challenged enough in his rural TN school system, and the couldn’t afford tuition to the school system I went to. That mom was one of the people who fought to get the laws changed in TN. But also, said oldest basically was teaching himself everything by high school. He ended up at a college in California and a software developer. His sister (my closer friend), honestly not as book smart and did not do as well in traditional college.

[sent]

Jun 9, 2023 14:12:23 GMT -5 mirabelle said:

Like they encourage having an obscene amount of children to grow up and do what exactly without an education? I feel like I'm missing something. 

If I had to take an educated guess, the answer is vote and have more kids.

[chickadee77]

Jun 10, 2023 9:23:43 GMT -5 sent said:

Jun 9, 2023 14:12:23 GMT -5 mirabelle said:

Like they encourage having an obscene amount of children to grow up and do what exactly without an education? I feel like I'm missing something. 

If I had to take an educated guess, the answer is vote and have more kids.

I've always been told by the few I know that they have so many kids to "bring more souls to God." 🤷‍♀️ I don't know if that just means the more kids they have, the more Christians there are, or if they're actively out doing evangelism. Maybe both.

[joy]

Jun 9, 2023 14:12:23 GMT -5 mirabelle said:

Jun 9, 2023 12:48:01 GMT -5 pugz said:

ATI kids aren't going to college by and large. They are too poor or not allowed at secular universities. Maybe some go to Bob Jones or Liberty but keep in mind there are still TONS of conservative religious homeschoolers that use programs like Classical Conversations or Charlotte Mason models that do go on to those colleges, boys and girls. Patrick Henry is a more classical university so they attract students that were raised in that kind of homeschooling environment. Not ATI.

This is what just baffles me so they want to "rule the world," but don't see how important a formal education is to furthering their agenda?

Also are boys and girls educated the same? Does anyone know how that works/worked in the Duggar household specifically?

Like they encourage having an obscene amount of children to grow up and do what exactly without an education? I feel like I'm missing something.

I will not be buying Jill's book, but will get on the waiting list at the library as soon as possible.

An uneducated populace is easiest to control.

Educate few, let those wield power. The rest will follow exactly as instructed because no critical thinking skills and breed more to do the same.

[basilosaurus]

Jun 10, 2023 10:22:06 GMT -5 joy said:

Jun 9, 2023 14:12:23 GMT -5 mirabelle said:

This is what just baffles me so they want to "rule the world," but don't see how important a formal education is to furthering their agenda?

Also are boys and girls educated the same? Does anyone know how that works/worked in the Duggar household specifically?

Like they encourage having an obscene amount of children to grow up and do what exactly without an education? I feel like I'm missing something.

I will not be buying Jill's book, but will get on the waiting list at the library as soon as possible.

An uneducated populace is easiest to control.

Educate few, let those wield power. The rest will follow exactly as instructed because no critical thinking skills and breed more to do the same.

My heart fully believes in voting rights for all. And then I realize the people who vote and question that. These are the same people who voted in boebart and greene and who love banning books,

[ellipses84]

I probably will eventually but I think it’s going to be super triggering. I only ever watched an episode or 2 of the the first season of 19 kids and didn’t necessarily see parallels to my childhood, but I was homeschooled for a couple years and attended a private school for a year at a very conservative non-denominational church. We attended the church for several years and eventually moved to the other side of the county (around the same time as a few other families almost like we were all fleeing). It wasn’t on the level of evangelical, but my mom has referred to it like as cult-like in hindsight, the school was allowed to paddle kids and there were instances of SA between minors not dealt with like it should have been. I kind of want to watch it with my mom so we can talk about everything.

Social media is in an uproar about the documentary and tons of kids who grew up in that cult have left and are speaking out. One of the worst things I’ve heard is about blanket training at 6 month olds which the Duggar mom talked about on the show and is child abuse to an infant (not just a different parenting style). The purity culture, obedience training and SA go hand in hand.

Someone pointed out that even if you try to avoid it, those conservative ideals seep into other denominations, like the Christian music station broadcasting anti-abortion commercials that used to haunt me as an 8 year old, using conservative private school or homeschool curriculum without parents realizing what’s in it, purity culture, etc. We definitely had focus on the family books in our house and I saw Billy Graham speak as a kid and they were revered as the gold standard of Christianity in the 80s, but at the time we would have said we were nothing like those conservative fundamentalists. We attended Christian rock concerts all the time!

[sent]

Jun 10, 2023 10:19:12 GMT -5 chickadee77 said:

Jun 10, 2023 9:23:43 GMT -5 sent said:

If I had to take an educated guess, the answer is vote and have more kids.

I've always been told by the few I know that they have so many kids to "bring more souls to God." 🤷‍♀️ I don't know if that just means the more kids they have, the more Christians there are, or if they're actively out doing evangelism. Maybe both.

I will get around to watching this documentary at some point, but from my random knowledge on this subject, this is how various religious groups in the US have increased their numbers throughout our history and including now. The more kids, the more people there are affiliated with that group. It's the easiest way to get the group to grow without relying on others to convert and come in.

[mirabelle]

So do the adult Duggar children have their GEDs or anything?

[tacokick]

Jun 10, 2023 11:22:00 GMT -5 mirabelle said:

So do the adult Duggar children have their GEDs or anything?

A lot of states (not sure if it’s all) don’t require home school kids to get a GED. They basically can just sign some paperwork saying they completed any required credit hours and it’s the same as graduating public school .

[quesyrah]

Jun 10, 2023 11:22:00 GMT -5 mirabelle said:

So do the adult Duggar children have their GEDs or anything?

Homeschool kids can still get a HS diploma. The requirements vary by state.

[SwimDeep]

Jun 10, 2023 11:22:00 GMT -5 mirabelle said:

So do the adult Duggar children have their GEDs or anything?

as others have said, it varies by state. My state required specific paperwork that my parents couldn't complete or something because the curriculum they used wasn't accepted by the state. So I did need to take/pass the GED. As well as a pre-GED. And all the college entrance exams. My parents changed their homeschooling philosophy after that, so it was easier/possible for my younger siblings to actually graduate with a legit high-school diploma.

ETA: I was quite offended by the state requirements at the time. But looking back on it now I'm glad I had to take the GED. I did study some math/geometry and science, but the overwhelming focus of my high-school "curriculum" was religion and home economics.

[sent]

Jun 10, 2023 11:22:00 GMT -5 mirabelle said:

So do the adult Duggar children have their GEDs or anything?

Unless they were heading to work in the real world in a job that might have educational requirements or licensing standards, why would they need GEDs?

[basilosaurus]

Jun 11, 2023 14:36:32 GMT -5 sent said:

Jun 10, 2023 11:22:00 GMT -5 mirabelle said:

So do the adult Duggar children have their GEDs or anything?

Unless they were heading to work in the real world in a job that might have educational requirements or licensing standards, why would they need GEDs?

even if they go to higher Ed they go to places like crown aka clown college. They're not exactly discerning in admission. The duggars are royalty in their tiny nasty world, so the name matters more than any education or degree

[msmerymac]

Jun 9, 2023 14:12:23 GMT -5 mirabelle said:

Jun 9, 2023 12:48:01 GMT -5 pugz said:

ATI kids aren't going to college by and large. They are too poor or not allowed at secular universities. Maybe some go to Bob Jones or Liberty but keep in mind there are still TONS of conservative religious homeschoolers that use programs like Classical Conversations or Charlotte Mason models that do go on to those colleges, boys and girls. Patrick Henry is a more classical university so they attract students that were raised in that kind of homeschooling environment. Not ATI.

This is what just baffles me so they want to "rule the world," but don't see how important a formal education is to furthering their agenda?

Also are boys and girls educated the same? Does anyone know how that works/worked in the Duggar household specifically?

Like they encourage having an obscene amount of children to grow up and do what exactly without an education? I feel like I'm missing something.

I will not be buying Jill's book, but will get on the waiting list at the library as soon as possible.

They are encouraged to be independent entrepreneurs - likely because then they won't have to interact with a lot of people outside their cult, but in theory because they only need to answer to God, not some worldly boss. 

That's why a lot of them do things like trades (independently), car sales, real estate, etc. I think Joy Anna and her husband flip houses. Jim Bob gave Josh that car lot after he had to resign from his lobbying job in disgrace. The Duggars also lease some of their land for a cell phone tower and make at least a few thousand a month off that. 

In theory they are educated the same, but as the documentary shows, the girls are responsible for house work and child rearing as well, so, like, Jessa had to do 8-10 loads of laundry a day at age 10 or 12 or whatever - plus watch her group of children. So not too much time for the book learning. 

[pugz]

also note that even though they vote republican, a lot of these people are deeply libertarian. Patrick Henry College won't even let you use federal student loans.

[pugz]

chickadee77 secular homeschooling has definitely grown a bunch the last few years and on the surface I have very little problem with it as long as people are actually educating their kids. Not something I would ever do but I understand why people are doing it.

My only concerns are usually about whether kids are getting services if needed like speech, PT/OT, behavior therapy, etc.

[nsl]

I can't find it right now, but I know I've read at least one story about a homeschooled woman whose parents never filed for their diploma, refused to release any records they had kept of the daughter's education, and as an adult they couldn't prove that they had "graduated" from any program (nor could they pass the GED because what their parents taught them wasn't at all aligned with the assessed skills).

ETA: here it is: www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2015/03/12/how-a-teenagers-viral-campaign-to-prove-her-citizenship-is-inspiring-a-new-texas-bill/

The level of control homeschool parents, especially fundie ones, have over their grown children if they do what this woman's parents did is truly terrifying. It goes way beyond just educational records, and in the case above also includes basic government documents like SSNs that make it almost impossible for them to survive in the outside world if they choose to leave.

[babsbunny]

Watched ep 3 last night and DH asked me if I was intentionally trying to torture myself. He wasn't trying to watch and still picked up on all the bad stuff.

I am waaaaaay distracted by how Mrs D STARES at Mr. D whenever he talks. She almost never turns away to face the family or an audience. And I feel like she is mostly seeing the sides of his face so it's not like he can even tell she is looking at him.