I am so sorry. Unfortunately I can relate to your pain and it really does hurt. I'm sorry that he continues to put your needs aside and make his stupid wife and her son the priority. I know that you love your father, but clearly he is not who you need him to be. It's hard to open the delicate part of yourself to someone and bear your soul-only to feel like they weren't listening or didn't take it to heart anyway. Clearly he doesn't understand how much all of this has affected you.
I am so sorry. You have every right to feel the way you do.
Hugs
I'm so sorry Sara.
I thought everything I wanted to say to you about this was already said, but then I read calamity's response above, and the bolded reminded me of something really important that has gone unsaid in this post: sometimes, even when we love someone and they love us, we cannot be in a healthy relationship with them.
What I mean is this: I know you love your dad for the amazing, supportive father he's been to you in every other aspect of your life. You have wonderful memories and have built a strong relationship with this man, and he has been there to support you through many tough times. In fact, it really sounds like his only flaw, his Achilles heel, if you will, is this situation and how he handles the relationship dynamics that follow from it. So, throughout your life, you have chosen to focus on the overwhelmingly positive influence he's been in your life, and you love him for it.
And THAT'S OKAY. I want to stress that. There are a lot of posts here that suggest that his behavior with regard to this issue somehow invalidate all those other things and your love for him, and that only this one issue defines his character as cruel and undeserving of your love. I believe those responses oversimplify this and do the magnitude of the situation a disservice.
Just as you have conflicted feelings, I also believe your father does. Despite repeatedly hurting you in such a base and guttural way, I believe he loves you, too. But I think he feels trapped, and believes that you'll always forgive him and that he'll never lose you, and chooses the path of least resistance when he chooses his wife over you. He probably fears that if he makes an issue out of this in his home, it will ruin his marriage. I'm betting he thinks that while it's very possible that he can lose his wife, that no matter what he does, you'll always be there, and so, he does what he thinks will bring the most harmony overall.
I am not defending him; in fact, I think this thinking is what allows his broken, dysfunctional behavior to continue. The saying "we always hurt the ones we love the most" comes to mind. The fear your father has of losing his wife is causing him to hurt you because he operates under the assumption that he can't push you away. This is a self-perpetuating abuse cycle and not a healthy relationship.
Here's the thing: we can love someone, but not be able to be in a healthy relationship with them. Most often, you can't fix the relationship while remaining in it. It's necessary to break apart the relationship for the two people to be able to come to a place of understanding and to reset from abusive behavior cycles. Without that, the stakes are too high, and it's too easy to keep reinjuring one another. With space, you can let all the emotions soothe and start to look at things without having to worry about being hurt or hurting the other person. Sometimes, you find that you can come back together and start a new type of relationship, without falling into the old behavior cycles. Sometimes, you find you can't.
But you can definitely love that person throughout the whole process. My son taught me all about redemptive love. He loves his first mom with all his heart, but he knows she was an alcoholic and couldn't take care of him or keep him safe. He understands that he can't live with her, but he still loves her. And, from the stories I know, I believe she loves him, too, but couldn't make the choices that would keep him safe and in her life. I know in your situation it's a little different because your father is actively making choices that he knows hurt you, but so did M's mother. I'm not so sure that making those choices because you have a disease (alcoholism) is really that much different than making those choices out of faulty reason and fear in a case like your dad's, given all the other evidence of his love for you.
So this is a really long post just to tell you that, whatever you decide to do about seeing your dad, or drawing back from him, or whatever else, just know in your heart that it's okay to love him and to believe that he loves you, too, even if he repeatedly makes certain choices fully knowing they will hurt you and damage your relationship. It's okay to love him and still choose not to have him in your life, because you can't have a healthy relationship. And it's okay to love him even though he's hurt you.
Post by wrathofkuus on Mar 4, 2013 12:02:10 GMT -5
Your sister tells you that your rape and molestation and the aftermath aren't about you? She can go right the fuck to hell. I want to punch her in the godsdamn face, that makes me so angry.
Everyone said what I would love to say as I sat down and petted your hair but holy shit SueSue and Scotty are so spot-on it made me gasp. I know that he's your dad and he's there for you most of the time, but that's because you let him be there for you those times without forcing him to the issue of accepting that he HASN'T been there for you in this most important, holy-shit-this-is-important, area of your life. He can be there for his wife but NOT when it comes to traumatizing his child. My stepfather abused the crap out of me, and my mom joined him in the "fun" and it hurts like hell to realize that instead of jumping on his back and screaming "don't touch my child" she came in with a belt after he was done and beat me, saying "this is for every year you've been a problem for me." - adding one year more than I was even alive. And that this hurt persists to this day, at my age, (and her comment this one particular instance hurt oh so much more than any beating - and it was a beating that warranted a call to CPS from the two counselors at the school well before the age of mandatory reporting) is NOTHING compared to imagining if he had molested and raped me and she condoned it. The violation of a parent not supporting their child when their innocence, and their very self, is stolen is insupportable. I hurt for you so much. I am so so sorry that you need to live through this every time you've had to.
Your sister tells you that your rape and molestation and the aftermath aren't about you? She can go right the fuck to hell. I want to punch her in the godsdamn face, that makes me so angry.
yeah, i'm not entirely sure how she can believe that other than to say that she pushes the reality of his actions out of the picture entirely like i have in the past and focuses on his good qualities. and there are so many of them. but this is just not something i can rationalize or forget or bury or excuse anymore.
i have felt selfish in the past with it being about me...like i haven't got the right or something. but it is and i need to learn how to be okay with that.
sue Sue and @scottydeux you have both helped nail some of the things i feel. i am just feeling all over the map on this. its so confusing. i don't want to not know my dad anymore and i really fear the day he is gone for good. but at the same time, i don't want to know someone that can do this to me. especially when sue put it the way she did.
and Captain Serious thank you for your long, thought out reply. i agree entirely about the over-simplifying. however, i guess i have been guilty of the same int he opposite direction in the past.
She isn't saying he IS trapped and has no choices, but the way he behaves, leads you to believe HEthinks he is and keeps hurting Sara b/c, as CS said - Sara is a sure thing and she has a forgiving heart. He doesn't believe he will ever actually lose her, so he continues to play to his wife's wishes and chooses instead, to only do damage control when it comes to Sara.
The more and more I think about, the more I feel like Snips hit the nail on the head. There really isn't anyway for him to be a good supportive husband (given what the wife is expecting him to do) and be a father who shows his daughter that he feels some responsibility for what happened to her and all he wants to do is make it right.
I can't imagine being in a situation like this. The only way it would work is if the wife was able to understand that her son was a monster and even though she will always love him, it's not EVEN REMOTELY acceptable to ask the father of his rape victim to attend functions that celebrate him. OR FORCE HIM (and his other family members) TO LOOK AT A PHOTO SHRINE OF THE GUY IN HIS OWN G.D. HOME.
Oh Sara, I'm sorry:( I would feel the exact same. The person who is supposed to protect you and make you feel safe in this world is passively condoning the person who did the unthinkable to his daughter. I can't imagine how deeply that cuts. He should want to kill this guy, not celebrate his fucking birthday and fuck his wife while I'm at it.
And it's a very hard thing to accept and even harder to say "screw him, he's cut out of my life forever"
It's easy to say you'll do (or should do) but so much harder in real life.
Sara I am so sorry you are going through this. This situation is complicated and I am not even going to pretend to have an idea of how you should navigate it. But one thing I would like to say, is I think you should stop walking on eggshells. You don't have to be vulnerable, but you can point out the big pink rapist elephant every chance you get. You have nothing to be ashamed about, this wasnt your fault, and it has made you plenty uncomfortable, so who cares if everyone else has to squirm. Take your kickass no nonsense attitude and apply it to this. Your stepmom has a right to grieve, sure. But her son is gone, and the quiet awkwardness of this situation is allowing the devastation he caused to continue. Stomp on the eggs. I would be devastated if my child did something horrible to someone someday, I would still love my child, but my need to be a decent human would cause me to respect the victims feelings and put them above my own.
Coming from the point of view of someone who very recently cut her toxic family out of her life I encourage you to really search your heart as to what you want to do Sara.
For many many years I excused my parents behavior because they aren't "all bad" and they did things (monetary support, really) and I know they tried. But at the end of the day, now that I am really looking at the abuse and shit that I put up with so long there is an insane amount of freedom that I feel in being without them in my life.
Only you know what you can live with (or without), and how to address it. Perhaps taking a big step back and having him see just how much it hurts you will be enough for him to step up and write off this fucking douchebag. Maybe not. I know it hurts
I know you and I have talked about this before but my parents continue to have contact with my grandfather who sexually abused me. I asked my parents to respect my boundaries in that I never want to see him again. They still asked me to invite him to my wedding (NO!) and I asked them not to share my life with my grandparents at all. Whether or not they had a relationship with them was their choice, despite how much they knew it hurt me. I recently found out that my dad has been sending pictures of my children to this pedophile. THAT was enough for me to draw the line.
I guess what I'm saying is that I had a really hard time justifying that they shouldn't have a relationship with them, and like you I excused it that if I didn't know about their contact it didn't matter. But they clearly have no fucking boundaries and don't care for my privacy and wishes. It was ONLY when I saw that my children could be harmed by them that I finally took a stand. For some reason, it was ok for me to feel disrespected and hurt by them (and my grandparents) but NOT MY CHILDREN.
So, a long way of saying I understand. It hurts. It's not fucking fair
Examine what you need for yourself. YOU MATTER. YOUR HEART MATTERS!
I agree that cutting out is hard. Just saying, it would not be out of line to just blurt out, to the stepmom, him, exactly what you think, when you think it, regarding the way that they handle this stuff. It's okay to sound like an ornery beyotch about it, whenever the mood strikes, imo. Perhaps if they see you as one who will not take it, they will change. If they don't, that's very telling. GL.
Yes, like how only a self-involved narcissist would ask a parent to annually memorialize their child's rapist and only a man who has lost custody of his manhood would actually go. I think this is a perfect thing to casually toss out right before asking someone to pass the salt.
Post by sparkythelawyer on Mar 4, 2013 13:00:05 GMT -5
I think there's a middlegrond between "I don't know you anymore" and, "my mental health requires me to keep my exposure to you limited." Stop answering every call but answer every now and then. Be polite, but keep your distance, because really, why would you want to open your heart to someone who time and again is content to let you know that your feelings, your concerns, heck your safety, doesn't matter. Stop making yourself, and the boys so available, because seriously, what kind of role model is he for your boys if he's willing to hurt their mother over and over again just to save a little face?
I wish it were different, but he is never, ever, going to give you what you are looking for here, because it is not important to him to do so. Stop putting yourself out there to be hurt by him over and over on this, its flogging yourself because you like how it feels when you stop. Maybe if he figures out that your family is putting some real distance between your household and him over this, and he starts to see the consequences of HIS actions it will start to matter.
You are a wonderful person who deserves much better than this.
There's such few people in he world that should be in your corner to support and protect you. Your dad is failing you.
Most parents would want to physically harm someone that hurt their child in this way. But your dad chooses to be in the same room with him. That is cowardly.
If you continue to have a relationship with him, you'll have to accept that he'll always put his relationships before you.
Post by snipsnsnails on Mar 4, 2013 13:13:41 GMT -5
You can't bear the weight of this, Sara. This is the sort of thing that will break you if you let it. And you've come too far to let it and have too many people surrounding you who want to see you whole and loved and cared for (even your father deep down wants that, he just doesn't know how to facilitate that for you at all).
Don't look at this time as a permanent ending of your relationship with your father. You are putting to rest the relationship you once had and the one you wish to have, but you need to take time to work through the healing apart from this. It's like a gaping wound that continues to be opened afresh every time something like this happens. Take time to heal yourself and love yourself and then you can look at the situation with your father specifically with new eyes. If you want to reestablish some boundaries at that point with your father, you'll be more ready.
I want so much for you to know your life apart from this heavy, heavy weight. I have so much love and prayer coming your way. xoxo
oh, sara. i am so, so sorry. i have an idea of what you're going through, and it fucking sucks ass. but you are a strong, smart, fabulous woman. time will help (not necessarily heal). take care of you.
Oh hell no to go to a fucking birthday dinner for him. I wasn't okay with it when I thought he was alive. But it seems even more cold when I find out he is actually dead.
My situation is different with my dad, but when I cut him off, I basically lost the rest of the family and almost lost my relationship to my sister. It still was the best thing for me.
I'm not telling you what you should do - only you get to decide that - but I wanted to say that you've already been through the hardest part and having your kids spend less time with your dad or sister as a result won't be nearly as difficult as they are trying to make it seem for you.
I also want to say that although counseling seems exhausting and overwhelming, it's something you might want to consider again in the long run. It totally changed my thinking.
montereybride you sound exactly like my older sister. she very much feels that i need to respect and understand that he is supporting his wife. well, maybe not respect and understand. i don't know what her expectation is there, but that is the point she always hammers home to me.
i know that she is allowed to love her son. i know that she is allowed to have pictures of him in her home. and i have expressed as much to my dad about it when i asked about the picture last year. i did, however, say that if she chose to keep it up that i would not be allowing myself to hurt by coming over. the other photos of him in the house are in their bedroom, which i only walk into when e is in there and calls for me. its hard, but i do it. i do not, however, understand how my dad can see these images day after day after day and just be okay with it. i have tried to find reason there and i can't. and that pain and frustration has come surging back with a vengeance in the last week. this is just so unfathomable to me as a parent and i am trying to make sense of something senseless, yet i cannot stop thinking about it.
and while i logically know that i cannot make him choose me over his wife, i want him to. just once. just one time over something so big. and as a parent, i just cannot imagine that it even takes consideration to do. it just doesn't make sense to me at all. and maybe there were years where he didn't understand that i would view it that way, but i have spoken very bluntly about how it makes me feel. and when he asks 'what can i do?' and i tell him, in no uncertain terms, what i would like for him to do it just makes it worse. why would someone ask what they can do for you and not follow through? and not even someone, my dad. my parent. i mean, i am half of his dna for fucks sake. why aren't i worth the follow through here? why aren't i important enough? why is your wife worth more? and how can someone profess to love their child so much and then act this way? and then i am supposed to just bear the weight of that?
perhaps i'm not being rational or whole in my thoughts, but i just cannot see the world from your perspective on this. to me its a no brainer. your child comes first. am i that ridiculous for thinking that?
I'm so sorry, Sara. I didn't mean to hurt you more. You are not ridiculous for wanting to come first or for believing that you should. But I don't think your dad has the capacity to choose between you and his wife. I really think his 'what can I do?' is really a futile expression of him being stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think he wants to choose you but knows that he has to choose his wife. That's what marriage is. Even in this awful, horrific nightmare of what you've been through, this is what marriage is. And you're right. It's not fair. And it never will be. I'm so sorry, I really do have so much love for you and I hate that these wounds keep being opened. I don't want you to think I'm not on your side because I am. But this perspective I'm offering is valid. You can't come first for him because his wife has too. She didn't do these horrific things to you. Her son did. Your dad loves his wife and supports his wife and there's nothing wrong with that. But, it does mean that you have to do things on your part to figure out how you can live with what you've been given. You have to figure out how you can be a whole, healthy person - a wife to your husband and a mother to your children - apart from all of the hurt and anger and disappointment and disgust. You are completely entitled to feel everything you're feeling and to want everything you want. But it's not going to change anything. Please consider returning to therapy. I won't say that I know what you're going through but I will say that I've been betrayed by those who were supposed to protect me and it's taken a very very long time and a lot of therapy to try to understand the relationships that have lasted beyond my betrayal. Please take good care of yourself.
Sara this is so difficult and I can see why you have people not understanding.
I am only going to say a couple of things here. When I was growing up I prayed to God to not let me fall in love with a man that already had kids. Why? Because "I" wanted to be the most important person in my husband's life. After living in a blended family situation I KNEW that "I" would not respect a man 100% if he didn't put his kids first. So I understand where you are coming from.
The other thing I want to say is. Please feel free to reach out to us. I know it's easier to sit in your computer and vent. But we are here for anything you need and you have our numbers. Don't feel like you'd be intruding or like this is not important enough for us to help.
montereybride you sound exactly like my older sister. she very much feels that i need to respect and understand that he is supporting his wife. well, maybe not respect and understand. i don't know what her expectation is there, but that is the point she always hammers home to me.
i know that she is allowed to love her son. i know that she is allowed to have pictures of him in her home. and i have expressed as much to my dad about it when i asked about the picture last year. i did, however, say that if she chose to keep it up that i would not be allowing myself to hurt by coming over. the other photos of him in the house are in their bedroom, which i only walk into when e is in there and calls for me. its hard, but i do it. i do not, however, understand how my dad can see these images day after day after day and just be okay with it. i have tried to find reason there and i can't. and that pain and frustration has come surging back with a vengeance in the last week. this is just so unfathomable to me as a parent and i am trying to make sense of something senseless, yet i cannot stop thinking about it.
and while i logically know that i cannot make him choose me over his wife, i want him to. just once. just one time over something so big. and as a parent, i just cannot imagine that it even takes consideration to do. it just doesn't make sense to me at all. and maybe there were years where he didn't understand that i would view it that way, but i have spoken very bluntly about how it makes me feel. and when he asks 'what can i do?' and i tell him, in no uncertain terms, what i would like for him to do it just makes it worse. why would someone ask what they can do for you and not follow through? and not even someone, my dad. my parent. i mean, i am half of his dna for fucks sake. why aren't i worth the follow through here? why aren't i important enough? why is your wife worth more? and how can someone profess to love their child so much and then act this way? and then i am supposed to just bear the weight of that?
perhaps i'm not being rational or whole in my thoughts, but i just cannot see the world from your perspective on this. to me its a no brainer. your child comes first. am i that ridiculous for thinking that?
I'm so sorry, Sara. I didn't mean to hurt you more. You are not ridiculous for wanting to come first or for believing that you should. But I don't think your dad has the capacity to choose between you and his wife. I really think his 'what can I do?' is really a futile expression of him being stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think he wants to choose you but knows that he has to choose his wife. That's what marriage is. Even in this awful, horrific nightmare of what you've been through, this is what marriage is. And you're right. It's not fair. And it never will be. I'm so sorry, I really do have so much love for you and I hate that these wounds keep being opened. I don't want you to think I'm not on your side because I am. But this perspective I'm offering is valid. You can't come first for him because his wife has too. She didn't do these horrific things to you. Her son did. Your dad loves his wife and supports his wife and there's nothing wrong with that. But, it does mean that you have to do things on your part to figure out how you can live with what you've been given. You have to figure out how you can be a whole, healthy person - a wife to your husband and a mother to your children - apart from all of the hurt and anger and disappointment and disgust. You are completely entitled to feel everything you're feeling and to want everything you want. But it's not going to change anything. Please consider returning to therapy. I won't say that I know what you're going through but I will say that I've been betrayed by those who were supposed to protect me and it's taken a very very long time and a lot of therapy to try to understand the relationships that have lasted beyond my betrayal. Please take good care of yourself.
You know what? This is a bunch of bullshit. Marriage isn't choosing to support your spouse in hurting your kids over and over. It isn't condoning your spouse being so ridiculously insensitive to your kids that she talks about your daughter's rapist right in front of her, displays pictures of him where she can see them, and tells your daughter that her kids remind her of her rapist as a youth.
You know what marriage IS? Marriage is both being sensitive enough to accept that yes, your wife loved your daughter's rapist and will need to talk about him when your daughter isn't around, and will need to keep pictures of him somewhere that your daughter will never, ever see them AND being enough of a human being to understand that your son is your husband's beloved daughter's rapist, and that there are feelings around this that need to be tiptoed around. What marriage isn't is this one-way bullshit where the woman who raised a rapist gets all the sensitivity from everyone, and has to give none in return.
montereybride you sound exactly like my older sister. she very much feels that i need to respect and understand that he is supporting his wife. well, maybe not respect and understand. i don't know what her expectation is there, but that is the point she always hammers home to me.
i know that she is allowed to love her son. i know that she is allowed to have pictures of him in her home. and i have expressed as much to my dad about it when i asked about the picture last year. i did, however, say that if she chose to keep it up that i would not be allowing myself to hurt by coming over. the other photos of him in the house are in their bedroom, which i only walk into when e is in there and calls for me. its hard, but i do it. i do not, however, understand how my dad can see these images day after day after day and just be okay with it. i have tried to find reason there and i can't. and that pain and frustration has come surging back with a vengeance in the last week. this is just so unfathomable to me as a parent and i am trying to make sense of something senseless, yet i cannot stop thinking about it.
and while i logically know that i cannot make him choose me over his wife, i want him to. just once. just one time over something so big. and as a parent, i just cannot imagine that it even takes consideration to do. it just doesn't make sense to me at all. and maybe there were years where he didn't understand that i would view it that way, but i have spoken very bluntly about how it makes me feel. and when he asks 'what can i do?' and i tell him, in no uncertain terms, what i would like for him to do it just makes it worse. why would someone ask what they can do for you and not follow through? and not even someone, my dad. my parent. i mean, i am half of his dna for fucks sake. why aren't i worth the follow through here? why aren't i important enough? why is your wife worth more? and how can someone profess to love their child so much and then act this way? and then i am supposed to just bear the weight of that?
perhaps i'm not being rational or whole in my thoughts, but i just cannot see the world from your perspective on this. to me its a no brainer. your child comes first. am i that ridiculous for thinking that?
I'm so sorry, Sara. I didn't mean to hurt you more. You are not ridiculous for wanting to come first or for believing that you should. But I don't think your dad has the capacity to choose between you and his wife. I really think his 'what can I do?' is really a futile expression of him being stuck between a rock and a hard place. I think he wants to choose you but knows that he has to choose his wife. That's what marriage is. Even in this awful, horrific nightmare of what you've been through, this is what marriage is. And you're right. It's not fair. And it never will be. I'm so sorry, I really do have so much love for you and I hate that these wounds keep being opened. I don't want you to think I'm not on your side because I am. But this perspective I'm offering is valid. You can't come first for him because his wife has too. She didn't do these horrific things to you. Her son did. Your dad loves his wife and supports his wife and there's nothing wrong with that. But, it does mean that you have to do things on your part to figure out how you can live with what you've been given. You have to figure out how you can be a whole, healthy person - a wife to your husband and a mother to your children - apart from all of the hurt and anger and disappointment and disgust. You are completely entitled to feel everything you're feeling and to want everything you want. But it's not going to change anything. Please consider returning to therapy. I won't say that I know what you're going through but I will say that I've been betrayed by those who were supposed to protect me and it's taken a very very long time and a lot of therapy to try to understand the relationships that have lasted beyond my betrayal. Please take good care of yourself.
I disagree with this, strongly. By accepting her son did this, she is continuing to perpetuate the feeling that Sara and her feelings are unimportant or wrong. She's telling Sara to "get over it" because her son is dead.
Her Dad supporting his wife and her fucked up perspective is WRONG and extremely saddening.
I really do feel that parents should love their children unconditionally, but when children deeply hurt other, repeated and intentionally, that rule doesn't apply anymore.
I think maybe what MontereyBride was trying to say was that she has compassion for Sara's dad and recognizes that it is difficult for him too. I get that. As I posted above, I'm going through similar shit with my family. I can be compassionate that my dad had a shitty childhood and the abuse he must have suffered to STILL need his parents approval after 60 years must have been pretty bad. For a long time I felt sorry for him and that is why I let the behavior/abuse continue. Forgiveness-wise, I do have compassion for him, but for ME it means not having them in my life. I think Sara needs to start putting her own needs first. Show compassion for HER feelings, since obviously her father cannot do so.
I don't think that it is particularly helpful in this case because Sara has tried to show compassion and be understanding but it is at a point where she is actively being hurt by her father.