Tillie. You don't have any questions about the officer's actions after watching that video? None? You feel that was a justified shooting and that we are all just anti-LEO?
I hate those words because he was 12, but I think the gun looked real and his actions were unpredictable.
Do you think this man wearing pajamas waving a gun was acting predictably? The officers who eventually diffused the situation and disarmed him didn't even draw their weapons. And he was actually waving his gun around threatening to use it on people.
Much of what LEOs deal with on a daily basis is unpredictable, that's part of what makes their job so dangerous. I don't think it should be a license to roll up and shoot someone, a child no less, within a few seconds of exiting their vehicle.
Tillie. You don't have any questions about the officer's actions after watching that video? None? You feel that was a justified shooting and that we are all just anti-LEO?
I hate those words because he was 12, but I think the gun looked real and his actions were unpredictable.
What does that even mean? Actions being unpredictable is not the same as them being threatening. So now protocol is not putting down a perceived threat it is just the uncertainty that it may BECOME a threat? Or not...who the hell knows what is unpredictable.
Fine, since it needs to be spelled out. Many of the open carry videos are full of white guys being confronted by the police because of suspicious activity. So of course they stop the guys, who are typically a smartass and record the police (because page views, duh). Granted suspicious activity is not the same as pointing a gun at someone, but I would think that the cops could have judged the situation as they drove up, especially since he was sitting at a picnic table doing nothing moments before they showed up. But because the big scary 20 year old 12 year old was very dangerous sitting at a picnic table. Yet none of the cops in those videos drove up onto sidewalks and over grass to get to the guy with the gun.
FTR, I don't hate cops. And if he was pointing the toy at people then he shouldn't have. But that doesn't deserve death. Worst case scenario in that case should have been the shit scared out of him by a cop who lectures him about his actions.
I appreciate your attempt but you made no mention of the kids who looked like they were going for their gun. To me it makes minor difference if the cops pulled up 10 feet away of 100- I belive they would have fired at any distance. Agree with it or not, cops can shoot if someone's going for what they believe is a weapon.
Hindsight is 20/20. The cops may not have known he was sitting at the table prior- you can't fault them for not knowing that.
I feel for the kid and his family. He's too young to know what could happen bwcuse of his actions. The cops should have pulled further away. I am curious to know if he had a purpose for taking the orange cap off and waving it around....
Fine, since it needs to be spelled out. Many of the open carry videos are full of white guys being confronted by the police because of suspicious activity. So of course they stop the guys, who are typically a smartass and record the police (because page views, duh). Granted suspicious activity is not the same as pointing a gun at someone, but I would think that the cops could have judged the situation as they drove up, especially since he was sitting at a picnic table doing nothing moments before they showed up. But because the big scary 20 year old 12 year old was very dangerous sitting at a picnic table. Yet none of the cops in those videos drove up onto sidewalks and over grass to get to the guy with the gun.
FTR, I don't hate cops. And if he was pointing the toy at people then he shouldn't have. But that doesn't deserve death. Worst case scenario in that case should have been the shit scared out of him by a cop who lectures him about his actions.
I appreciate your attempt but you made no mention of the kids who looked like they were going for their gun. To me it makes minor difference if the cops pulled up 10 feet away of 100- I belive they would have fired at any distance. Agree with it or not, cops can shoot if someone's going for what they believe is a weapon.
Hindsight is 20/20. The cops may not have known he was sitting at the table prior- you can't fault them for not knowing that.
I feel for the kid and his family. He's too young to know what could happen bwcuse of his actions. The cops should have pulled further away. I am curious to know if he had a purpose for taking the orange cap off and waving it around....
FALSE. Not in every case. Everything is dependent on circumstances.
"Not gonna lie; I kind of keep expecting you to post one day that you threw down on someone who clearly had no idea that today was NOT THEIR DAY." ~dontcallmeshirley
I was the first reply in this thread I think with my questions:
"Where are all those bystanders we heard about that needed protecting? I don't see anyone.
Now, I'm asking this not as condemnation but for clarification-- do they need to pull up directly to the suspect like that? in that close range? The kid kind of looks like he's tooling around, loitering, like kids do. Would they have assessed the risk / body language and stuff before moving in? And is it protocol to just go straight up to an "armed suspect" like they did?"
I am quoting MrsA only because her point says matches my questions pretty much exactly.
I will get you a poem later. I have to find that happyplace again because this ugliness came in here and ruined my muse.
I can't speak for everyone, but if you really are responding to a person with a gun that you think is so dangerous you need to kill them you are pretty fucking stupid to pull up right beside them. You are putting yourself in a position of DISadvantage and that is something a cop doesn't want to do.
That's exactly what I was thinking. Even the other day when you and ttt and I were talking, and I heard he was only 10 feet away and I asked questions about that. I didn't understand why he was so close (didn't know there was a car) to begin with. They just blazed in.
In the original article posted, the chief or captain or whoever said confidently that the video clearly indicates what happened, case closed.
it surely does. It most definitely does show clearly what happened.
i hope this will re-open some examination into Crawford's death, too. Btw, have you seen that video/are you familiar with the case?
Tillie. You don't have any questions about the officer's actions after watching that video? None? You feel that was a justified shooting and that we are all just anti-LEO?
I hate those words because he was 12, but I think the gun looked real and his actions were unpredictable.
^o) You think the gun looked real? That dark blobby thing on the grainy, glitchy, black and white security video? I'm not saying it didn't look real, but someone viewing that video is in no position to opine with authority.
I appreciate your attempt but you made no mention of the kids who looked like they were going for their gun. To me it makes minor difference if the cops pulled up 10 feet away of 100- I belive they would have fired at any distance. Agree with it or not, cops can shoot if someone's going for what they believe is a weapon.
Hindsight is 20/20. The cops may not have known he was sitting at the table prior- you can't fault them for not knowing that.
I feel for the kid and his family. He's too young to know what could happen bwcuse of his actions. The cops should have pulled further away. I am curious to know if he had a purpose for taking the orange cap off and waving it around....
I feel sick.
A 12 year old knew taking the Orange cap off would get him killed? I'm guessing he took it off because he's a kid and kids do dumb things. Or maybe someone gave it to him like that. He was waving it around not near anyone in the video. So now he can't even play be himself?
I wasn't getting at he would have thought he would get shot.
Regardless of the fact he was killed, being 12 wouldn't you think showing a weapon (even a BB gun) in public would get you in trouble? To me in the video he was just being a kid, hanging out with himself. I'm thinking that he felt like he needed to carry a weapon to feel safe.
I hate those words because he was 12, but I think the gun looked real and his actions were unpredictable.
You think the gun looked real? That dark blobby thing on the grainy, glitchy, black and white security video? I'm not saying it didn't look real, but someone viewing that video is in no position to opine with authority.
From the evidence photos, it looked very real. But you can't see squat from the video.
I am generally inclined to give cops the benefit of the doubt, and I did so earlier with this very case. But from that video, I don't see how they had enough time to even give this kid a chance to put his hands up. The video changes my stance on this entirely.
And I'm stepping away from FB because a friend of mine posted the OJ/white people don't riot meme and I made the mistake of countering with white people riot over hockey and pumpkins and mentioned the Cleveland shooting. Now one of her "Marine friends whose grandpa was a cop for 30 years" is countering that the shooting was justified because the kid pulled a gun. Fucking asshole.
Do you people who are essentially saying that the kid should have known better and that waving a real-looking toy gun would have gotten him hurt really believe what you're saying? Are you seriously trying to blame a CHILD for getting shot and killed? Sweet Jesus, Mary, and Joseph! Tamir Rice was 12! What child thinks he's going to get killed because he's playing with a toy?
OK, so the cops didn't know it was a toy but they fucked up so royally here. They never, ever, ever had to shoot that CHILD!
HE WAS A CHILD!
Clearly I have lost my good sense and any attempt at a rational conversation about this. Cops killing babies, man. SMH.
I am generally inclined to give cops the benefit of the doubt, and I did so earlier with this very case. But from that video, I don't see how they had enough time to even give this kid a chance to put his hands up. The video changes my stance on this entirely.
OK? It troubles me greatly that someone purporting to be a LEO would come here after seeing the video and not seem willing to even say "hm that looks a little different than the way earlier stories described it" and instead essentially said "sorry kid sucks to be you."
Do you people who are essentially saying that the kid should have known better and that waving a real-looking toy gun would have gotten him hurt really believe what you're saying? Are you seriously tryung to blame a CHILD for getting shot and killed? Sweet Jesus, Mary, and Joseph! Tamir Rice was 12! What child thinks he's going to get killed because he's playing with a toy?
OK, so the cops didn't know it was a toy but they fucked up so royally here. They never, ever, ever had to shoot that CHILD!
HE WAS A CHILD!
Clearly I have lost my good sense and any attempt at a rational conversation about this. Cops killing babies, man. SMH.
This X1000000000
I teach 12 year olds. They don't have a lot of sense. They can't; their frontal lobes are not developed yet. They do stupid shit all the time. Damn. This kid could be one of my students .
There is nothing in the world that could convince me that, in the 8 minutes of that video, that kid is doing anything that justifies cops rolling up on him and shooting him in cold blood.
"Hello babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. On the outside, babies, you've got a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies-"God damn it, you've got to be kind.”
I am generally inclined to give cops the benefit of the doubt, and I did so earlier with this very case. But from that video, I don't see how they had enough time to even give this kid a chance to put his hands up. The video changes my stance on this entirely.
OK? It troubles me greatly that someone purporting to be a LEO would come here after seeing the video and not seem willing to even say "hm that looks a little different than the way earlier stories described it" and instead essentially said "sorry kid sucks to be you."
Yes is extremely scary to me that there are LEOs out there when called to the scene there mindset is just to "shoot at sight"! Where the fuck do I live!?!
For those defending the officer, did you watch the video? There was no way that they gave the kid time to do anything. If you think that the shooting was justified, then you must think that a LEO is always justified in shooting someone. Seriously, I don't understand how anyone watching the video could think this is ok. If we as a society think this is acceptable, then every black male should probably walk around with their hands in the air at all times. Just to be safe.
OK? It troubles me greatly that someone purporting to be a LEO would come here after seeing the video and not seem willing to even say "hm that looks a little different than the way earlier stories described it" and instead essentially said "sorry kid sucks to be you."
I am generally inclined to give cops the benefit of the doubt, and I did so earlier with this very case. But from that video, I don't see how they had enough time to even give this kid a chance to put his hands up. The video changes my stance on this entirely.
Ditto. Previously I thought it was the kids fault, but this video changes everything.
This is a really good reason for cops to wear video cameras.
I've read the 1st 2 pages and I don't know if I can do anymore this week. It is sickening that this happened. Sickening that these things keep happening and I'm so tired of the people that blindly defend it.
I am generally inclined to give cops the benefit of the doubt, and I did so earlier with this very case. But from that video, I don't see how they had enough time to even give this kid a chance to put his hands up. The video changes my stance on this entirely.
This is exactly what happened with me, too. This video changes everything.
I am generally inclined to give cops the benefit of the doubt, and I did so earlier with this very case. But from that video, I don't see how they had enough time to even give this kid a chance to put his hands up. The video changes my stance on this entirely.
Ditto. Previously I thought it was the kids fault, but this video changes everything.
This is a really good reason for cops to wear video cameras.
And isn't it SHOCKING that St.Louis cops rejected body cameras for 2015 (decided at their last board meeting). It's just as shocking as all the dash cams that go missing or broken. Or when those that do wear body cameras, accidentally turn them off or forget to turn on the audio Technology, it's just too hard!
I am generally inclined to give cops the benefit of the doubt, and I did so earlier with this very case. But from that video, I don't see how they had enough time to even give this kid a chance to put his hands up. The video changes my stance on this entirely.
Ditto. Previously I thought it was the kids fault, but this video changes everything.
This is a really good reason for cops to wear video cameras.
When this story broke, I actually thought the video they were talking about came from a body camera. I thought they already had them. I didn't know it was surveillance.
On a positive note, there's this from The Scene (which I despise because they intimated my son in a friend's suicide as "he was one of the last to see him? Was it suicide or was he pushed? Maybe MrsBPO's son knows the truth! Maybe he was there!" It rather pissed me off.)
Violence never broke out during Tuesday's downtown protests and Shoreway blockade in response to the police shooting of 12-year-old Tamir Rice and the non-indictment of Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson.
But for awhile, it seemed like it might.
Local news noted that while in other cities, protesters threw rocks at police officers, looted businesses, and set innocent vehicles on fire, the protesters in Cleveland were by and large a gentler and more respectful breed. The Fox 8 telecast (which I relay only via closed captioning) reported with great relief that though some "nerves were frayed" and the Route 2 traffic jam had been a major inconvenience, no one was injured.
Police, too, at Public Square and en route to the Shoreway, were well-behaved. Many of them even seemed in good spirits during the frigid late-afternoon proceedings. When I confronted one to see if any arrests had been made, he happily told me that he wouldn't be commenting, and ragged me a bit when I continued to ask. Another officer confessed he had no idea what the protesters were planning, but seemed ready and willing to escort the throng wherever it may have lead.
Cops, in fact, tried to block the 200-300 protesters from funneling onto Route 2, but they didn't resist when the chanting mass walked right by them. There was no riot gear or military equipment of any kind in sight.
Police Chief Calvin Williams himself was a presence on the Shoreway as well, convening with his officers and then speaking personally to both motorists and protesters before departing for the community forum at the Cudell Recreation Center, where Tamir Rice was shot.
(The surveillance video showing the police shooting will be released Wednesday at 1 p.m., at the request of Tamir Rice's family). At 5:30 p.m., after roughly 45 minutes of blocking Shoreway traffic, protesters peacefully returned to Public Square via the W. 3rd exit ramp, having made their point loud and clear.
Earlier in the afternoon, though, when young people were taking turns at the megaphone willy-nilly, the tenor of the protest seemed to skew toward the confrontational:
"I don't give a fuck that media is here," shouted one young man, who identified himself as mixed-race. "Black people are fucking dying."
A young black woman stood with the American flag and started a "Fuck this Flag" chant. Several youths took turns shouting "Fuck the police" into the megaphone while the crowd grew in size and energy with the arrival of contingents from local universities and high schools, including a group of nearly 75 students from Oberlin College.
One woman, in prepared remarks, said that people had been quiet and nonviolent for too long, and that the system's treatment of blacks demanded a commensurate action in response. "If that action is violence," she said, "that action is valid."
Protesters moved from the Square's Southwest (Tower City) quadrant to the central intersection of Superior and Ontario, forming a complete circle and shouting "Hands Up! Don't Shoot!," "No Justice, no peace! No racist police!," and, formidably, "Whose streets? Our Streets?"
At one point, protesters laid down in the street en masse.
Carol Steiner, the protest organizer from Puncture the Silence, said that the blockage of the Public Square's traffic nexus had been planned, in conjunction with the national Stop Mass Incarceration network's protest directive: "If Wilson Walks, America halts." (Puncture the Silence is a local Stop Mass Incarceration affiliate).
But the Shoreway roadblock, Steiner told Scene Wednesday morning, was unplanned.
"We had definitely planned to be disruptive, to disrupt business as usual," she said. "But part of what we were doing was constantly processing what people were saying and what leadership was thinking. When the Shoreway idea came up, we jumped on it."
Steiner said she was very pleased both with the turnout and with the reception of the protest.
"It was very very heartfelt," she said. "To be honest, you can't control a group of 300 people. But on the other hand, the unity that was displayed was incredible. There were times when we had no idea what we were doing next. But when a decision was made, we were able to communicate effectively with everyone. You know, 'at 4:02 we're all gonna lie down."
After the Shoreway blockage and the return to Public Square, many of the protesters caravanned over to Cudell, Most of them drove.
Do you people who are essentially saying that the kid should have known better and that waving a real-looking toy gun would have gotten him hurt really believe what you're saying? Are you seriously trying to blame a CHILD for getting shot and killed? Sweet Jesus, Mary, and Joseph! Tamir Rice was 12! What child thinks he's going to get killed because he's playing with a toy?
OK, so the cops didn't know it was a toy but they fucked up so royally here. They never, ever, ever had to shoot that CHILD!
HE WAS A CHILD!
Clearly I have lost my good sense and any attempt at a rational conversation about this. Cops killing babies, man. SMH.
All of this. We're asking a 12 year old to follow the same logic as 30 year olds. I can't get my 12 year to understand that she needs to clean her room let alone know that having a BB gun in public can get you killed.
And again, it's not only a BB Gun, it's Skittles and Ice Tea, riding public transit, and playing music loudly in a gas station parking lot. Or just going outdoors to take out the trash.
Really, all folks want is for someone to say - you know what - we have a problem and we need to implement protocols to ensure that these things aren't happening every week. But we can't even get that. Instead, we're faced with discussions of what one should be doing to NOT get shot.
For the life of me, I can't understand why this is so hard to comprehend.
The reason I liked that post is because I agree that the child's actions were unpredictable, especially since the 911 call was messed up as well.
I also think, based on all of the posts this week, this board is biased against anything law enforcement and/or gun related.
Did either one of you watch the damn video? When the police roll up THERE ISN'T ANYONE THERE. He isn't waving it at anyone. All they need to do is find out what the hell is going on. There wasn't any situation.
And tillie, seriously? Seriously? You can't possibly be this simple.
Post by tacosforlife on Nov 27, 2014 5:47:26 GMT -5
As I've mentioned before, shortly after I moved into my house, there was a police standoff across the street. We never heard the full story, but we know it involved a mentally ill individual talking about having a gun. The police thought it was a serious enough situation that they not only closed off my street, but also asked my friends and me to move away from the front of the house (in case the person across the street fired). After an hour or so, everything was resolved peacefully.
If the police can peacefully diffuse an unpredictable situation on a densely populated residential street, then they can at least TRY to do the same here. The time elapsed is plainly insufficient to allow for even the most basic attempt at peaceful resolution. How anyone could say otherwise is mind-boggling. That anyone in law enforcement would say otherwise is terrifying.
Almost 18 months later, I still think about the incident on my street and feel very grateful that the police in my neighborhood handled things so well and managed to diffuse rather than escalate the situation. Not only did nobody get injured or killed, but that whole situation greatly increased my trust in local law enforcement and makes me more likely to seek their assistance in the future.